I have this personal theory, based solely on the series of weiners that I have dated, that so many little boys these days are raised to believe they are special little snowflakes and they should seek out alternative employment that really satisfies their longing to create and be an agent of change in their life etc, etc, etc...whereas more and more little girls are being raised with the message that you have to work really, really hard and get a job and be ready to support your family entirely on your own because the world is changing and you can't rely on the mens anymore for any kind of support and the result is more and more women are in the kind of situation detailed in the post. I mean, custom-made golf clubs, IN THIS ECONOMY??
This kind of arrangement, where the woman has the steady job and daddy stays home to craft eco-friendly you-tube videos or whatever, seems to be more and more common. Certainly, the reverse used to be a common arrangement for couples with the power-daddy and a mom that stays home and makes candles or whatnot, and I almost applaud the fact that now it seems a gender-neutral situation, but I still resent the fact that I'm sitting here relentlessly pursuing a law-degree while every man I meet is working on his writing or formulating his amazing spike jonze-esque film debut and being supported by their parents. Why are women more and more the only ones being encouraged to be responsible? Is this the result of my parents' generation where everyone got divorced and the mothers all preached aggressive self-reliance?
Its not a bad thing that being successful is no longer the badge of masculinity it once was, but I know I feel no sympathy for a man who _hopes_ to someday contribute to the family expenses with his totally fun sounding interest in custom golf clubs. Maybe I'm just bitter because it seems I'm always the one buying dinner these days. #wagegap
I was living with my current partner for the last 2 years. We're both college students, so our primary "income" is student loans. I have tried to avoid giant loans, but you know, life happens and all that.
Anyway, he got fired well over a year ago, and hasn't worked since. Part of it was pure laziness (he didn't go to find a job, since he was in school and had loans that covered the bills) and part of it was sudden recession in which it was next to impossible to find work. As long as he paid his half of the bills, I was fine. It's his money and his life, and I don't really give a shit as long as I don't have to support him.
Then the student loans didn't come. His parents had been knocked down a tax bracket, and they decided that it was the perfect time to audit. They also told him not to get a job, as it would put him in a higher need bracket and expedite the process. I was working 20 hours a week or less on overnights, and not exactly bringing in the biggest paychecks. I ended up paying the rent through November, and was on the verge of bankruptcy when the loans FINALLY came (after Thanksgiving, oddly enough). He paid me back in full the first day he got his loans.
So, technically, I'm the "breadwinner". He's never once said anything about how our genders play into it. It's always been about how it works for us - that I had to pay the bills, and yes, I resented it a lot. Not because he is "the man" and must pay the bills, but because I wasn't making enough money to support two people. I was hardly making enough to support one. I kept my job because I hardly missed a day (he had a lot of funerals and family emergencies). I am more concerned about how this will affect his future, now that he doesn't owe me money any more. His self-image is not tied to providing for me, but rather, being an equal partner, and it hurt both of us when he couldn't do that. #wagegap
When Mr. Spamanda went back to school six years ago, even our friends asked us "how it felt" for me to be the breadwinner. I couldn't believe it. He was still working, I just had the steady job and the insurance. I think of my friends as being progressive, but this is such a pervasive idea. When our first son was born and we split the childcare 50/50 (by working different days of the week) people were REALLY weirded out by it. Even among young people, gender roles are so ingrained.
Also, custom golf clubs? Wow. #wagegap
@spamanda: I often have friends tell me that Mr.Pear needs to "get a better job, and pull his weight more." I always remind them, that if our work/pay situations were reversed NO ONE would say anything about it. There is still very much a double-standard. #wagegap
@spamanda: In a way, I think it is an easy out for women, even if they are progressive. If they are tired of working hard, or generally looking for a reason to resent their husband, it can be tempting for them to think that a real man should be providing for them. I've been the breadwinner for the last three years, and I can't imagine the pressure if society expected me to shoulder that burden for my whole marriage, without exceptions or help. #wagegap
@OneBigPear: Yeah, now that I'm a stay at home mom with our two children, no one suggests I "need" to find a job. I've also never been asked "how it feels" to have Mr. Spamanda provide all the financial support (well, other than friends who are also considering staying at home with kids!) #wagegap
I totally missed that whole "Bills, Bills, Bills" stage and went straight into "Independent Women". Except I went into "Broke Independent Woman" stage, which is decidely less glamorous. Far fewer opportunities to throw one's hands up. #wagegap
What I've also found really interesting about some of the speculation about how things are changing in regards to which gender is making the money is how many people are willing to state that it might change "gender roles". To me, it's sort of startling to see people in the mainstream (or whatever you'd like to call it) out and out admitting and talking about how finances affect how we interact on a personal level. It's really only another step to start talking about how, traditionally, money has been used to force women into certain situations and roles and keep them there and then a little skip forward to see where the resistance to women being paid equally comes from. #wagegap
The trajectory of Beyonce and Destiny's Child is a pretty hilarious illustration of women moving up in the workplace:
I think we're doing alright financially, number 4, take a hike.
Hey look, we're doing really well, I think I'll go solo now.
Oh man, recession, alright Kanye I guess we can do that remix.
(Not that I really think Beyonce is feeling the recession, or that she really needs Kanye around, but you know.) #wagegap
@bluebears:
I am confused by that also. I was just reading somewhere about how life during biblical times was matriarchal, but that point was obviously overlooked in organized Christianity. Even so, I don't remember learning in catechism that the dude has to bring home the bacon. #wagegap
@bluebears: I found that oddly disturbing to, although not surprising. I don't think they're supposed to say that out-loud where "non-believers" can hear. Note: This comment stemming directly from my childhood upbringing. #wagegap
@HarpMadness: yeah, it was like, oops that slipped out. I once worked in a large law firm and one of the staff members husband would come and pick up her pay check for her every week. She couldn't even touch it. They sent all their kids to Bob Jones University if that gives you any indication... #wagegap
@bluebears: He seemed to forget that Christians come in many different shapes and sizes. It reminds me of going to a friend's conservative Baptist wedding and my Christian friends were significantly more disturbed than me by what we felt was misogynistic language in the ceremony because it was their religion. #wagegap
@bluebears: Christians have this faulty ideal that men are supposed to be the head of the household. In order to do this, they feel they should make more money than their wife, so that she will more likely continue to be submissive to them. It's really crazy, but it all boils down to Colossians 3:18: Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. The meaning actually leans more towards respect, but many pastors have plundered the word and made it mean what they want it to mean, i.e. that women should be meek and humble toward her husband.
Jeez, I'm so glad to be away from organized religion, but I still know how fundamentalists think. #wagegap
@bluebears: That really annoyed me. Be grateful your wife is working, bub, or else you might be a Christian living in your car and wondering where your next meal is coming from. Worry about your male ego later. #wagegap
@bluebears: I guess that's his reading of things. Personally, I don't believe Christianity mandates that men be the breadwinners (pretty sure it isn't mentioned anywhere that I've seen, or maybe I just haven't been paying attention). But then, I recently went to a wedding and physically cringed when they used the "submission" language, which I hadn't heard used in any Christian ceremony in about 20 years. #wagegap
@Lymed: The "some" is implied, sorry, I should have included it. It is a generalized statement explaining why this particular chiristian believes his situation is so much harder because of his religion. #wagegap
@Kivrin: ha. right? I think I'll custom make golf-clubs which are already tied to an expensive hobby people might be cutting back on and custom making them means mine will be even more expensive! #wagegap
@Kivrin: It's like a friend of a friend who has quit her job to start a custom cat toy business from her home. As much as I love my kitty, I can't see spending twenty-five big ones on a silk-and-velvet catnip mouse, even in a booming economy. #wagegap
@Kivrin: Seriously. He must have read "Trading Up" and made these plans just in time for the economic crash. Pray to God, but row further out to sea? #wagegap
The economy sucks no matter if you have boy bits or lady bits.
Having said that, my male friends have been getting crushed in the job market. I'm making 10k less than I did last year for the same work, and I'm one of the lucky ones. A couple of guys are 12 to 18 months between jobs, and with few nibbles. My female friends have, for the most part, done OK, with few layoffs or downward mobility.
@telecomic the thoughtful red panda: Perhaps that's a function of men getting paid more for the same work. This is just a (somewhat educated) guess, but if their salary history/requirements are higher than the women they're competing with for jobs, then they're going to lose out to the "cheaper" candidates. Their higher pay probably also contributed to their getting laid off, in terms of cost-cutting.
@ronniedobbs: I thought about that, and that seems like it might work. I think the classic male ego has something to do with it. "I was getting paid 90k at my last job, why would I look at this 75k job?" A few months later, you talk yourself into a 75k gig, and that's not available anymore, but there's no way you could take a 60k, right?
Sadly, I suffered from this back after the dot-com collapse. I figured that because Flybynighttelecom.com thought I was worth 90k, that Comcast's offer of 55k plus bonuses was insulting. I turned that down. Nine months later, I was working at Chili's for 2.35 an hour plus tips, kicking myself hourly for not taking the Comcast gig.
So, I'm currently reading Your Money or Your Life, and it makes me wonder - is there any chance women make less money because they put less importance on money? (As a whole.) Working in fields like education, nursing, etc. give women jobs that may make them feel more personally fulfilled. At some point, I realized that I didn't particularly like my job - and no amount of money is going to make me like it more. My salary could double and I would still find it stressful, full of politics, high-pressure, and not particularly engaging. As a result, I'm in the process of applying to grad school for an MFA - something I KNOW is going to cause me to lose a great chunk of money of the next few years in pursuit of something I feel I can do with integrity.
Is money really the standard by which we feel we need to judge our equality? That is to say, are there perhaps good reasons some women choose less aggressive career tracks, or to stay home with children for a few years, or to work part-time and take care of their aging parents, or to start their own lower-paying businesses altogether?
@rixatrix: "is there any chance women make less money because they put less importance on money? "
Reseach shows that even when type of work, sector and level of education and experience between men and women are identical, women are still underpaid. Read 'Women Don't Ask' for further info.
@Plum-Pie: Yes, but women as a whole are still taking time off to care for children and relatives; they're still quitting their jobs to move with their husbands and families where he can get work; they're still the ones who leave work to pick up Jimmy when he's sick at school. What I mean to say is - perhaps as a group, women put more importance on intangible things, like community, family, a sense of well-being, and for that reason, women, as a group, continue to earn less. Do you see what I'm saying?
Of course there are women who are in high-pressure jobs, earning high salaries and pushing the glass ceiling. But I would say as a gender, women are still the ones who are expected to, or expect themselves to take care of people. And maybe part of the reason why women as a group don't make as much money as men is because we put more importance on these other things than the almighty dollar. There comes a time when you do have to choose between what's important to you and money - if you never have to make that choice, you're very, very lucky.
Yes, but women as a whole are still taking time off to care for children and relatives; they're still quitting their jobs to move with their husbands and families where he can get work; they're still the ones who leave work to pick up Jimmy when he's sick at school.
@rixatrix: I would argue that women do those things because, come on, who else is going to?
And I'm not talking about the whole "oh haha husbands are lazy" standard. I'm saying that when it comes down to the husband or wife taking time off work to care for sick relatives, it's assumed the wife will do this. It's assumed they will quit their job to move with their husband. It's assumed they will take time off to care for their kids.
And part of the reason it's assumed is that the husband, often, makes more money, and therefore it makes sense for the wife to do those things. So really, perhaps the fact that it's women taking care of these things is a product of, rather than a cause of, the pay gap.
It is also important to note that women are more likely to seek stability than men and are thus drawn to more stable, less lucrative fields like education and health care. A struggling economy tends to illuminate the struggle between risk and reward.
@winner: yes but even those "stable" jobs are very unstable right now depending on where you live. I could name 5 teachers off the top of my head who got laid off this summer. Last week a local (large successful) hospital announced they were cutting 200+ jobs.
@bluebears: Totally true. But I have an architect friend who's totally out of work. His wife is also an architect who, ironically, works on hospitals and schools and her company is actually hiring right now.
Everything is unstable right now but some are less stable.
Yet again women get screwed. I am now doing the work of two people, while also having taken a pay cut and a forced "furlough." Something tells me once the economy gets better, my salary will never be restored to its previous level. Excuse me while I gouge out corporate America's eye with my stiletto heel.
10/19/09
This kind of arrangement, where the woman has the steady job and daddy stays home to craft eco-friendly you-tube videos or whatever, seems to be more and more common. Certainly, the reverse used to be a common arrangement for couples with the power-daddy and a mom that stays home and makes candles or whatnot, and I almost applaud the fact that now it seems a gender-neutral situation, but I still resent the fact that I'm sitting here relentlessly pursuing a law-degree while every man I meet is working on his writing or formulating his amazing spike jonze-esque film debut and being supported by their parents. Why are women more and more the only ones being encouraged to be responsible? Is this the result of my parents' generation where everyone got divorced and the mothers all preached aggressive self-reliance?
Its not a bad thing that being successful is no longer the badge of masculinity it once was, but I know I feel no sympathy for a man who _hopes_ to someday contribute to the family expenses with his totally fun sounding interest in custom golf clubs. Maybe I'm just bitter because it seems I'm always the one buying dinner these days. #wagegap
10/19/09
Anyway, he got fired well over a year ago, and hasn't worked since. Part of it was pure laziness (he didn't go to find a job, since he was in school and had loans that covered the bills) and part of it was sudden recession in which it was next to impossible to find work. As long as he paid his half of the bills, I was fine. It's his money and his life, and I don't really give a shit as long as I don't have to support him.
Then the student loans didn't come. His parents had been knocked down a tax bracket, and they decided that it was the perfect time to audit. They also told him not to get a job, as it would put him in a higher need bracket and expedite the process. I was working 20 hours a week or less on overnights, and not exactly bringing in the biggest paychecks. I ended up paying the rent through November, and was on the verge of bankruptcy when the loans FINALLY came (after Thanksgiving, oddly enough). He paid me back in full the first day he got his loans.
So, technically, I'm the "breadwinner". He's never once said anything about how our genders play into it. It's always been about how it works for us - that I had to pay the bills, and yes, I resented it a lot. Not because he is "the man" and must pay the bills, but because I wasn't making enough money to support two people. I was hardly making enough to support one. I kept my job because I hardly missed a day (he had a lot of funerals and family emergencies). I am more concerned about how this will affect his future, now that he doesn't owe me money any more. His self-image is not tied to providing for me, but rather, being an equal partner, and it hurt both of us when he couldn't do that. #wagegap
10/19/09
Also, custom golf clubs? Wow. #wagegap
10/19/09
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10/19/09
I think we're doing alright financially, number 4, take a hike.
Hey look, we're doing really well, I think I'll go solo now.
Oh man, recession, alright Kanye I guess we can do that remix.
(Not that I really think Beyonce is feeling the recession, or that she really needs Kanye around, but you know.) #wagegap
10/19/09
whut? Is that in the bible somewhere? #wagegap
10/19/09
I am confused by that also. I was just reading somewhere about how life during biblical times was matriarchal, but that point was obviously overlooked in organized Christianity. Even so, I don't remember learning in catechism that the dude has to bring home the bacon. #wagegap
10/19/09
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10/19/09
Jeez, I'm so glad to be away from organized religion, but I still know how fundamentalists think. #wagegap
10/19/09
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10/19/09
Every time I think I'm out of reasons to crack on my former religion, they pull me back in… :-\ #wagegap
10/19/09
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10/09/09
10/09/09
Having said that, my male friends have been getting crushed in the job market. I'm making 10k less than I did last year for the same work, and I'm one of the lucky ones. A couple of guys are 12 to 18 months between jobs, and with few nibbles. My female friends have, for the most part, done OK, with few layoffs or downward mobility.
10/09/09
10/09/09
Sadly, I suffered from this back after the dot-com collapse. I figured that because Flybynighttelecom.com thought I was worth 90k, that Comcast's offer of 55k plus bonuses was insulting. I turned that down. Nine months later, I was working at Chili's for 2.35 an hour plus tips, kicking myself hourly for not taking the Comcast gig.
10/09/09
10/09/09
KILL ME
10/06/09
Is money really the standard by which we feel we need to judge our equality? That is to say, are there perhaps good reasons some women choose less aggressive career tracks, or to stay home with children for a few years, or to work part-time and take care of their aging parents, or to start their own lower-paying businesses altogether?
10/06/09
Reseach shows that even when type of work, sector and level of education and experience between men and women are identical, women are still underpaid. Read 'Women Don't Ask' for further info.
10/06/09
Of course there are women who are in high-pressure jobs, earning high salaries and pushing the glass ceiling. But I would say as a gender, women are still the ones who are expected to, or expect themselves to take care of people. And maybe part of the reason why women as a group don't make as much money as men is because we put more importance on these other things than the almighty dollar. There comes a time when you do have to choose between what's important to you and money - if you never have to make that choice, you're very, very lucky.
10/06/09
@rixatrix: I would argue that women do those things because, come on, who else is going to?
And I'm not talking about the whole "oh haha husbands are lazy" standard. I'm saying that when it comes down to the husband or wife taking time off work to care for sick relatives, it's assumed the wife will do this. It's assumed they will quit their job to move with their husband. It's assumed they will take time off to care for their kids.
And part of the reason it's assumed is that the husband, often, makes more money, and therefore it makes sense for the wife to do those things. So really, perhaps the fact that it's women taking care of these things is a product of, rather than a cause of, the pay gap.
10/05/09
10/05/09
10/05/09
Everything is unstable right now but some are less stable.
10/05/09