Jezebel 
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New York, 5:35 AM
Fri Dec 4
68 posts in the last 24 hours
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09/28/09
Why do we give a pass to Muslimas?
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ETA/Rework the wording a little.
If you are out and about and see the Duggars, in their dowdy skirts and crowning glory hairstyles, do you judge them as other? I do. Pentecostals of any stripe earn my liberal derision, because I'm a pagan bitch that way.
Hasidic Jews, for some reason, get a pass. The Amish are borderline, but they get a pass. And Muslimas get a pass. Old Catholic women? Check, they get one too.
You have to admit it's somewhat interesting, no?
09/28/09
And I think fundamentalists might be derided against more on Jezebel than other types/sects of religion b/c of their extremism, which affects our daily lives (for example, pro-lifers wanting to get rid of Roe vs. Wade). I think Hasidic Jews and the Amish get a past because they don't do anything that affects the majority in a palpable, vocal way. Same with Muslims wearing veils--that doesn't affect me. And of course, I am speaking from the perspective of an American... this may be different from Jezzies who are more familiar with these lifestyles or who live in other countries...
09/28/09
I truly appreciate your intellectual honesty.
Thank-you for that.
09/28/09
My thought is that as "liberals" we bend over backwards sometimes to prove that we're "better" than the Real Ammurrica who would castigate Muslims in particular because of their 9/11 prejudices.
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09/28/09
This pains me because of how the many Muslim friends I've had over the years have been judged for wearing the veil. Even just seeing how shocked some people are when they realize one hijab-wearing friend of mine listens to metal and wears combat boots under her long skirt fills me with disappointment. It's like they don't realize she is a person simply because of how she displays her faith.
Ok, I'm done.
09/28/09
So if it's good for the (Christmas?) goose, why isn't it good for the gander?
09/28/09
09/28/09
hmmmm
09/28/09
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09/28/09
I think that Mrs. Sobh has to acknowledge that the Hijab is also a symbol. Presented under this angle, I wonder if Mrs Sobh would reiterate her "Big whoop".
Touchy subject though. But interesting nonetheless.
I do agree with her point though, all women are infinitely different and infinitely similar. Big whoops all around.
09/28/09
or the 'Chinoiserie' of the mid-late 19th Century.
09/28/09
First she addressed how women had to be in the back to pray. Coming from a Christian background, I thought "well women should be able to pray wherever they want". She made the joke, "We're here to pray. When we pray we get on our hands and knees and bend over. I honestly don't want some dirty old man staring at my butt."
Then she talked about the hijabs. Many of the mosques in the US are relatively liberal and women are only required to wear them when they are are there. However, women still choose to wear them here to express their cultural identity. I don't think of it any different than my Jewish friends who would wear a yarmulke around on holidays. You can't always say the same is true around the world, but around here 90% of Muslims I've met have had more liberal in the role of women.
09/28/09
Or more than that, the Orthodox Jewish women who are out there being perfectly normal members of the working world while wearing wigs, scarves, hats, or other head coverings.
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09/28/09
I have to look at things in context. Its not my beliefs or values, but it is hers. If she feels empowered to wear it, then so be it. Its only oppression if it is being forced. I went to a women's college and there were a number of Muslim students who chose to wear it and others who didn't. There certainly wasn't anyone at a Methodist women's college forcing them to. Their parents weren't forcing them to. Yet they made the decision to because they wanted to.
And personally, I don't think that there is anything oppressive about modesty if you want to go that route. As long as personal choice is involved and you're not being forced by some external force, then I don't think it counts.
09/28/09
09/28/09
Really? I think I'd get pretty distracted if I was presented with a row of men bending over. I've heard similar justifications for covering only women, and restricting the movement and action of only women, and it has never sat well with me. It makes women responsible for mens behavior, on top of their own, and it erases female sexual desire. In a patriarchal religious culture, men would never stand for impositions similar to those placed upon women.
09/28/09
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09/10/09
Yeah, Wolf enjoys being a sensual creature. One of the things I find very irritating about many nominally sex-positive women is that if another woman does declare, however mildly, that she is a sexual being, the nominally sex-positive woman will bash her for being either a) a tool of the patriarchy or b) smug, as above.
I don't know what this supposedly feminist world that some women want looks like... it's apparently one where we're all comfortable in our own skin, we all love our own skin, but we're disallowed from discussing that skin. That's not what freedom looks like.
09/10/09
Um, no. I'm a Muslim woman who wears LBDs and bathing suits and jeans and I pass mirrors and reflective surfaces and make sure my paunch isn't too obvious.
It seriously is starting to piss me off when Muslim women don't realize that not all of us dress in burkas and wear hijab.
And PS: Burka or not, there is still pressure to be thin.
09/10/09
Seriously, hardcore Judaism and Christianity have rules about covering too, and no one is surprised to see me in a tank top, or a Christian in a bikini. This either/or this is so strange.
09/10/09
All the eye rolling makes my head hurt.
09/10/09
Both men and womyn are told that the female figure is soooo sexy that it must be covered. If not, promiscuous sex will occur. This is nothing new.
Much in the same way that church's tell girls to not wear tight clothing in order to not make their "brothers in Christ stumble," Muslim womyn are told that their bodies are inherently sexual.
09/10/09
If people scrutinized what I wore so closely I don't think I could handle it. Many a time have I broken down over comments regarding my limited wardrobe, usually my finances are the topic of scorn. I can't imagine how hard it must be to have my religious beliefs constantly monitored and questioned.
I don't agree with those who wish to ban burkas or impose them. Women should be allowed to wear whatever they want (so long as their genitals are covered when in public).
09/10/09
Why is this so ridiculously fascinating?
09/10/09
Maybe she's used to it, but temperature is one big reason I wouldn't get on board with this kind of dress even if I did feel like it prevented me from being judged (which I don't, but that's a whole other issue).
09/10/09
oh for fuck's sake. You know how many women who are wearing a burqa are more worried about feeding their families and not starving to death than whether their bodies are bikini ready? Yes, there is a huge middle and upper class of Muslim women throughout the world, and that they keep modest and wear hijab or chador or whatever else, and this is who she's talking about, but seriously? Most of them aren't in burqas. We throw that word around like its interchangeable with non-restrictive modest clothing. It isn't.
The culture clash here is making my brain explode.
09/10/09
I mean, Christ. What is this, 1860? The notion that covering up more of our bodies is somehow "freeing" because now we're not as much under the scrutiny of the male gaze is so many kinds of wrong I don't even know where to begin. The problem is NOT what kind of clothing we wear, whether we're covered from head to toe or buck naked. The problem IS the expectation -- which apparently PERSISTS even for women who wear a burqa -- the women's bodies are for OTHERS' visual pleasure and enjoyment. THEY ARE FUCKING NOT. ONLY WHEN WE GET OVER THIS MYTH WILL WOMEN *ACTUALLY* BE "FREE" FROM WORRYING ABOUT OUR BODIES.
Do you get it, Naomi Wolf????? It's not about anything WE do to make ourselves look a certain way (thin, fat, "average," fit, ripped, flabby, covered, uncovered, etc.) It's about what society will accept from us. And the bottom line is, it doesn't completely accept fully fleshed out women as people in our own right. It ONLY accepts us in relation to what we provide for others -- as mothers, as lovers, as eye candy, as "modest" prizes to "win," etc. The problem is that women as a concept STILL exist for other people and not for ourselves. It has nothing, FUCKING NOTHING, to do with what kind of clothing we wear, because we are STILL FETISHIZED.
This whole thing makes me so angry I can barely see straight.
09/10/09
the truth is, it exists and always will. living in NYC, i get my fair share of cat calls; whispers as some guy passes a little too close (the worst.); and the obvious look up and down. and this is every day. It's so unfair that just for wearing something like a sundress (not even something revealing) its like you have a giant sign on your body that says "please feel free to comment"
09/10/09
Maybe this is something where you have to be conventionally pretty and live in an urban area to truly internalize her perspective. The male gaze is palpable here in the warm months. You're never free of it. Every time you leave your building, strange men approach you and speak to you. My feminist enlightenment does not stop them from speaking to me, as it does not extend outside my own head. It does not stop me from being intimidated by them, because often in the past my saying, "No," has led to my being the target of obscene, disparaging remarks. I often wish I could be unseen on the street, since I lack the power to close predatory men's eyes and mouths. I know that age will eventually do that job for me, but in the interim, I can see the appeal of veiling.
09/10/09
I know exactly what you mean about being a feminist not stopping them, or how trying to put them in their place only seems to encourage them. I've lived it. I'm not sure I see your point -- surely you aren't suggesting that because we haven't mastered mind control we should just live with the "fact" that men are going to objectify us?
Being invisible or feeling invisible doesn't put an end to the marginalization of women. Covering myself up doesn't mean men stop leering at me -- it just means, perhaps, different men leer, and/or for different reasons. And if I did wear a burqa and still had to deal with someone telling me I need to be careful about my body so my husband won't leave me, I really don't see how I'd have been freed from anything.
Being invisible isn't the answer. Being allowed to be completely visible, and not having my visibility have to have some kind of male-oriented meaning attached to it is the answer. Pretending that covering ourselves up will solve the problem does all women a disservice.
09/10/09
09/10/09
09/10/09
Anyway, clearly you're not interested in having a real discussion, given you've resorted to pettiness.
09/10/09
I would also like to add that I have no problem with Muslim women dressing conservatively out of choice. Where I do have a problem is with any society trying to force me to dress a certain way.