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Tyra Hosts Heated Gay Marriage Debate

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UrsulaElk
05/08/09

In reply to Tyra Hosts Heated Gay Marriage Debate
do gay people get bought and sold? because i was under the impression that for hundreds of years this country's economy was based upon the traffic and sale of any individual with dark skin.

people getting hung from trees...who were never people. doesn't anyone who talks about the "civil rights" issue of gay marriage recognize that our constitution counts black people as 5/8ths human being? sure it was amended, but still. one of this country's founding documents establishes a segment of its citizenry as not citizens, and not even completely human for that matter. therefore, subject to be property.
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johnva
05/09/09

@UrsulaElk: Different issues can be independent civil rights issues. Using the term "civil rights" in connection with gay marriage is correct and doesn't in any way diminish black people's struggle for civil rights.
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The Queen of No
05/08/09

In reply to Tyra Hosts Heated Gay Marriage Debate
"You hate me and that is not Christian."

Exactly.
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kityglitr
05/08/09

In reply to Tyra Hosts Heated Gay Marriage Debate
So while the intolerant bigots keep throwing the religion card into the mix, why aren't more of us using that very arguement against them? NOT EVERYONE IS A CHRISTIAN. Some are other religions, some believe in no God whatsoever. Why must all these non-Christians be forced to live under the "moral" boot of the so called righteous? It just makes me so mad I want to spit. I'm an atheist, and it goes against my beliefs to discriminate against my fellow human beings, regardless of what THEIR beliefs may be.
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Alexis
05/08/09

In reply to Tyra Hosts Heated Gay Marriage Debate
Ok, I hate when this issue comes up people the first thing that happens are comparisons to slavery and illegal interracial marriage. Then the kneejerk reaction is "SLAVERY IS NOT THE SAME AS GAY MARRIAGE!"

Well, it isn't the same. Not by a longshot.

But, the point of the matter is that the U.S. has been founded on standards that have been deemed immoral and overturned before. Why can't people get that point? The "founding fathers" did NOT make a perfect country. We are constantly changing and shaping things to fit the modern world. Why is this issue so different?
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Rare Affinity
05/08/09

In reply to Tyra Hosts Heated Gay Marriage Debate
Ask me and I would tell you. However, I would NEVER wear a t-shirt stating my sexuality any more than I would EVER tick a box stating my sexuality on any government or other form. I adopt the same attitude to questions on race and ethnicity. Hitler's job would have been made so much easier had he and his cronies been able to look up such details at local government office.
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onydchic
05/08/09

In reply to Tyra Hosts Heated Gay Marriage Debate
As a Christian in a very conservative country, I'm going to come out and say this is a topic I've found myself struggling with, for ages. Eventually, I realized, it's a simple issue really. Christianity is about loving your neighbour, as long as they are not doing you any harm, and while I have been taught that this is wrong. It's not my place, or anyone else's, never has been, to judge. And there was something a strong Muslim guy said in the show Skins, after his son's friend said he was gay that surprised and enlightened me: "It's a messed up world, and there are things I can't understand, so I leave them be, with the hope that one day, my God, will help me understand".

So, on the gay marriage issue, to other Christians... I'd have to say, "Let them be."
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Laulau
05/08/09

@onydchic: I really appreciate this, and I think it is both compassionate and intelligent of you (that sounds awkward and condescending, but I truly mean it as admiration and a compliment) to have formed that opinion. But I truly don't understand even a remaining objection. Particularly when it comes to the question of marriage. I may be old-fashioned, but I think two people loving each other so much that they want to forsake all others for the rest of their respective lives is one of the most beautiful things human beings can do. And if it's two men, or two women, that doesn't change the beauty. I don't even believe in anything supernatural (I'm an atheist), and yet I would honestly call the act of binding yourself to another human being whom you love sacred. It shows commitment, and sacrifice, and hope, and those are all things I would like to see more of in society generally.
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Rosaxé
05/08/09

In reply to Tyra Hosts Heated Gay Marriage Debate
Holy shit, the first guy broke my heart. He spent his birthday in the hospital alone. And the statement, "You think I chose to be gay?" It's like saying, I didn't want this, but here I am. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but NO ONE deserves to live like that.
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zombie.nancy is a godess of fierce
05/08/09

@Rosaxe: that made me really sad....
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stoprobbers
05/08/09

In reply to Tyra Hosts Heated Gay Marriage Debate
I want to punch that woman in the blue jacket in the face.

Watching that black woman say things about gay people not being hung from trees makes me so sad. Not just because it's a false statement -- someone upthread pointed out Matthew Shepherd and there are more, many more -- but because she can't recognize how sexuality is just as innate and biological as the color of her skin. Her own community and her own people went through a vicious and necessary struggle to gain equal rights they were entitled to in this country. To see her turn around and deny those rights to someone else just as easily, and to not get that she's acting in the way people used to act towards her family and her peers... it's just so sad.
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garconne est grise
05/08/09

@stoprobbers: YES. Exactly what I was trying to figure out how to word. His sexuality is no more a choice than the colour of her skin (though I guess she believes it's a "choice"), this is a human rights issue. People have been denied entry into a hospital rooms where their life partners lay dying, only because they are not a family member or legal spouse (not sure how common this is today, but decades ago, when partners identified as "roommates" or "friends" it certainly happened). If these people had a shred of empathy, couldn't they put themselves in that position and realize how unjust it is? Being beaten or killed because of the way you are? I'd say racism is a fine analogy.
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clochette
05/08/09

@garconne: Thing is, even if sexuality were a choice, would that be an argument against homosexuality? I think the nature/nuture thing is a dead end if not a dangerous path to go down when fighting for gay rights.
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SarahMC
05/08/09

@clochette: Agreed. If one's sexuality is a choice... so? Even if it can be conclusively proven that it's not, bigots won't come around (much like the evolution and global warming debates).
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dreamweave
05/08/09

@clochette: @SarahMC: ball-cutting cybersuccubus: Yes, because the implication is that no one would possibly choose the horrible fate of being gay, given the choice, which supports the notion that there is something wrong with it.
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Notes from the underwhelmed
05/08/09

In reply to Tyra Hosts Heated Gay Marriage Debate
I saw this yesterday and almost cried a little when that guy was talking. These people are just bonkers, and it does a world of good to have them on TV, in the limelight, as much as possible, just so people can see how ridiculous they really are.
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Dorotea
05/08/09

In reply to Tyra Hosts Heated Gay Marriage Debate
As a Christian I just want to say that nobody, NOBODY, deserves to be hurt, beaten, harassed or in anyway go through any sort of abuse whether mental or physical because of how they live their life. I didn't see the whole episode just this clip but Tyra's right, I didn't see very much empathy or atleast the willigness to put yourself in someone else's shoes in this group of people.

I personally believe being a homosexual is a subconcious choice caused by a variety of factors like genes, childhood and past experiences as well as tendencies. I think for different people, it can be for different reasons or caused by different "mixtures" of reasons. However because my stance on homosexuality comes from the Bible and what the Bible says, I don't think I have the right to expect everyone else to follow the same rules since most people do not believe in God or the Bible as God's word. So I wouldn't legislate against gay marriage..I'll keep my opinion on gay marriage but I won't stop others from doing what they want because in the end, I don't think homosexuality hurts anyone else other than possibly, and this is just my opinion, the people engaging in it.
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sciencerules
05/08/09

@Dorotea: And while I disagree with you, can I just applaud your common sense? Although you have made your opinion and your reasons for holding it very clear, you also state that you do not have the right to expect everyone else to arrive at that same conclusion, and thus you cannot legislate your opinion.

This debate needs more people like you.
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SarahMC
05/08/09

@Dorotea: "most people do not believe in God."

Hold it right there.
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Beat Girl
05/08/09

@Dorotea: @sciencerules: I agree wholeheartedly with sciencerules. You have every right to hold opinions I disagree with, but your willingness to separate your personal beliefs from the running of a country is what makes your statement most admirable.
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sciencerules
05/08/09

@sciencerules: And upon rereading I realize I sound kind of harsh. Although in most cases I'm a flaming godless liberal, I have a lot of respect for people's faith and the ways they arrive at it.

Additionally, I hold some seriously unpopular opinions, like that marriage is for life and for love, and that living together before marriage is the wrong choice for me. However, like you, I realize that these are my opinions, and I can't expect everyone to agree with me, and therefore I will hold them, express them when appropriate, and keep them out of the law of the land.
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clochette
05/08/09

@Dorotea: While I disagree with you, I applaud the conclusion you've reached and the calm, reasoned way you make your case. However, your wording confuses me somewhat. 'Subconscious choice'? How can a decision made unconsciously really be called a choice? And if genes play a part in it, as you say, how can you still use the word choice? Similarly, one does not 'choose' how one is brought up. And what do you mean by 'tendences'? Just curious - not snarking. Because tho we disagree you seem like the kind of person who can explain themselves well to others, despite disagreement.

(At the end of the day of course it doesn't matter what makes people homosexual. It's no more or less valid if we find a 'gene for it', though you wouldn't know from how some people go on about that... yeah, actions are only validated if their cause can be located in our genome...??)
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sciencerules
05/08/09

@clochette: "Actions are only validated if their cause can be located in our genome...?" Heh. Because that's worked out so well to de-stigmatize mental illness, alcoholism, and anorexia...
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Dorotea
05/08/09

@sciencerules: @Grace of Spades: @Beat Girl:

I'm often disappointed when I read Christians opinions (or even non-Christians opinions) opposing homosexuality when they don't emphasize that it's an opinion, they just try to force their own views on others. Too many people expect others to live according to the exact same rule book as they do...but the truth of the matter is that in the end, we aren't the ones who will judge.

So I'm happy to get responses like yours. This conversation also needs more insight like yours because it's great that we can disagree while still being able to respect one anothers thoughts.
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InCahoots
05/08/09

@clochette: @GreySunsh: Having a gene doesn't mean that you are. For example, you can have a genetic predisposition to mood disorders, but may never suffer from one depending on environment, biological factors, etc. that occur throughout life.

So, I think her point is that there may be a genetic factor, but it's not something that makes you gay/straight.
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vamusical
05/08/09

@Dorotea: When Christians feel the need to force their views on others it's often done out of this idea that it's a form of evangelism, which I have a lot of problems with in general. When Jesus said to "spread the good news", he meant just clue everyone in on this Christianity deal, not to force them to have the exact same values as you.
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JeromeCabaret
05/08/09

I don't get why that matters, though? (Referring to the fact that homosexuality is part genetic, part "choice.") Also, by that same token, isn't being straight also somewhat of a choice?
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bananastand
05/08/09

@JeromeCabaret: It totally matters. There are Christians who believe that you don't have to be gay and you can be rehabilitated to be straight. That's their excuse for denying rights (not all Christians! Just some).
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bananastand
05/08/09

@bananastand: but, you know, it shouldn't matter. Love people for who they are, dammit!
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Dorotea
05/08/09

@clochette: @GreySunsh:

I'm sorry for the confusion, I must admit I myself am not 100% sure that I believe that is the case, that is simply the best balance I can find for what the Bible says with what I know about homosexuality.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I believe that because of our genes, we are all born predisposed to certain types of tendencies. The choice factor is still there though, so we can choose to live out our tendencies or not. By subconcious choice I mean that because perhaps the tendency can feel so strong that it doesn't feel like a choice, it just feels natural...

I agree about not choosing how we are brought up. But our childhood's do mold us to the people we grow up to be so atleast to me it makes sense that it could also mold our sexual identity.

Clochette, you mentioned that it doesn't matter what makes people homosexual. I understand what you are saying. I think whether or not it's predetermined by our genes makes a difference though. If homosexuality is most definately not a choice and completely up to our genes, then I would have no doubt in my mind that it can't be in any way wrong in God's eyes. If it is a choice at any level, I think the argument of whether it is morally right or wrong can be brought up. The ironic thing is we might never know though..which is why I try to keep my opinions as just that: opinions. I don't want to force my views on anyone and I'd gladly hear more from others with opposing views.
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lemonchar
05/08/09

@Dorotea: re: the "The choice factor is still there though, so we can choose to live out our tendencies or not." (well FIRST of all, thank you for stating things the way you have. i totally respect you here)

The reason that part of the argument is so hurtful to gay people is because it seems to reduce them to their sexual urges. If you have a tendency to fall in love with a person of one or the other gender, and you have a "choice" to form a healthy relationship with the person you're attracted to OR squash your feelings and fake it with someone of the "correct" gender...that's horrible.

Another thing about the Bible stuff is that there was no such thing as a homosexual RELATIONSHIP in those times, just Roman-style male/male sex. So two committed, in-love people of the same gender is never addressed in the Bible. But love is. And, as a Christian, far be it for me to deny someone love.
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Dorotea
05/08/09

@lemonchar:

I agree with you there. My intention was most certainly not to reduce gay people to their sexual urges and I can guarantee you that I honestly do see why someone could fall in love with another person of the same gender. After all, isn't love all about falling in love with the person inside of the body? In the same way as with heterosexual relationships, it's not all about sex or lust it's always about a connection between two people as well.

You brought up a very interesting fact about how they didn't actually have relationships back then, just sex...I've never thought about that aspect of it before to be honest but I appreciate you bringing it up because that can change the context of the message in the Bible.

Anyway, thanks for your views as well. Your last sentence really said it for me. Whether I feel one way or the other I think it's important to love everyone and let them love who they want to.
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Dorotea
05/08/09

@Dorotea:

Just wanted to say that I'm going to bed now so hopefully I don't leave anyone hanging without a reply....but once again i really am happy to have gotten so many mature and thoughtful answers and it's given me a lot to think about for sure!
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Tiggens
05/08/09

@Dorotea: Okay here's my problem with your argument: You said here and in past threads that, "If it is a choice at any level, I think the argument of whether it is morally right or wrong can be brought up." I really think this undermines your tolerance argument because, as you think homosexuality is a choice, then you could judge homosexuality as being morally wrong.

I appreciate that you're not "taking action" against gay marriage and attempting to be "tolerant" but this morality flaw in your argument is extremely hurtful and one that the anti-gay marriage people exploit to deny gay folks their rights. You're entitled to your opinion of course but I'm not ready to give you a gold star for your "tolerance" when you are pitying homosexuals ("I don't think homosexuality hurts anyone else other than ...the people engaging in it") and taking a stance of moral superiority.
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TheGuvnah
05/08/09

@Tiggens: well said. i'm a little confused by all the gold stars being given out to this commenter here.
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YourScreenplaySucks
05/08/09

In reply to Tyra Hosts Heated Gay Marriage Debate
I can't even get past the shirts. Did somebody who saw this catch her rationale for making people wear them?

I mean, is this supposed to be some kind of warning or vision of a dystopian future in which we will be required to display our sexuality on our person at all times? By the way, I can totally see Dov Charney signing up American Apparel to be the official sponsor & outfitter of the coming Gay Inquisition.
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Beat Girl
05/08/09

@Your Screenplay Sucks: She didn't say, although it wasn't really brought up to be some sort of divisive tool. As I said above, it seemed throughout that the point was to show that there are plenty of straight people who see gay rights as necessary and worthy. To prove that it isn't just gay people.
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pinkyBella
05/08/09

In reply to Tyra Hosts Heated Gay Marriage Debate
I just think the idea of the t-shirts is so stupid. Who comes up with these dumb ideas? Tyra? It just seems like it would make people more divisive.
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Beat Girl
05/08/09

@pinkyBella: I think the point was to prove that there are straight people who are supportive of gay rights too, not just THE GAYS.
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pinkyBella
05/08/09

@Beat Girl: I'm sure that was the point and it's a great point to make, but it just seems silly to make everyone wear t-shirts proclaiming their sexuality.
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Beat Girl
05/08/09

@pinkyBella: No doubt. TV land is a weird world.
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K
05/08/09

In reply to Tyra Hosts Heated Gay Marriage Debate
Did anyone else grow hopeful when the, "orange group," was mentioned, only to have their hopes dashed when it was revealed that the orange shirts were not representative of some alternate sexuality (bi, asexual, etc.), but were simply the result of bad planning?
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Beat Girl
05/08/09

@K: There was a group with red tees with question marks on who were unidentified... ie probably on the bi scale or asexual.
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bananastand
05/08/09

In reply to Tyra Hosts Heated Gay Marriage Debate
I hate when people claim they respect everyone's opinion when it comes to gay rights. I don't respect people who hate gays and don't want them to married. They don't deserve a drop my respect. Fuck them, seriously.
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Beat Girl
05/08/09

@bananastand: You don't have to respect everyone's opinion to respect their RIGHT to have an opinion.
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bananastand
05/08/09

@bananastand: Prejudice is not an opinion to be respected.
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Beat Girl
05/08/09

@bananastand: I agree, and that's what I said. I don't respect that opinion, but I cannot rightfully deny anyone the free speech to express said opinion. I don't have to give them a platform, or acknowledge their opinions as anything close to being reasonable for laws or constitutional ammendments. But I can say that I can't expect to just shut someone up for dissent.
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bananastand
05/08/09

@Beat Girl: I don't want to take away anyone's freedom of speech. I'm just saying, you will never catch me pulling a Tyra and saying to a religious fundie, "Oh, I disagree with your massive homophobic idiocy, but I respect your opinion!"
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Laulau
05/08/09

@bananastand: I hearted you for that. I am so sick of people saying "well, they're entitled to their opinion". No. If you want to hurt decent, upstanding people because of who they love (or, frankly, just who they want to screw), you can STFU. I don't care what you think, I don't care why you think it. You have a legal right to have your opinion and that's fine, but you don't have a legal right to fuck with other people's lives, and you are certainly not in the moral clear.
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bananastand
05/08/09

@truckasaurus is jackie jormp-jomp: Thank you. You said this way more eloquently than me.
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johnva
05/08/09

@bananastand: What's even worse is when they claim that their position deserve "respect" (actually, what they are demanding is closer to "deference" than "respect") merely because it's a religious belief. I'm sorry, but religious beliefs are totally subjective. You could make up anything and claim it's a religious belief. Before we can make headway on a lot of these issues with combating the religious right, we have to get over this idea that religious ideas are somehow immune from criticism or debate. To me, they're just ideas like any other idea and they should stand or fall on their merits.
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morninggloria
05/08/09

In reply to Tyra Hosts Heated Gay Marriage Debate
I want a shirt that says "GAY" to wear out on dates with my boyfriend. MINDS WILL BE BLOWN.
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Rare Affinity
05/08/09

@morninggloria: @IHazKittehz: From the slogan I would assume you were a lesbian desperate to hammer home the message that you were not remotely sexually interested in the man you were out with. If you were making out with him, I would assume you were not a genuine lesbian, just a woman who played up to the male fantasises of lesbians, who when push came to shove reverts to orthodox heterosexual norms.
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desertbloom79
05/08/09

@Rare Affinity: Or maybe I'd assume her "boyfriend" was a really a lady friend. Everyone will stare at his chest to see if they can find boobs, and then he'll understand you better.
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♥AntiSocialSocialite♥
05/08/09

@desertbloom79: or that morninggloria was a guy!

*gasp*

people just don't understand that boxes and labels are silly and often hurtful - and most of the time, only serve a purpose to the people doing the labeling.

@morninggloria: great idea!
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Slovenly Muse
05/08/09

@morninggloria: I bet the religious bigots you encounter would congratulate you and offer their support during your courageous battle to overcome your "condition" and defeat your terrible "illness." Straight is great!
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