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posts about #tyrablackisthenewgay more → Tyra Hosts Heated Gay Marriage Debate
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Tyra Hosts Heated Gay Marriage Debate |
05/08/09
people getting hung from trees...who were never people. doesn't anyone who talks about the "civil rights" issue of gay marriage recognize that our constitution counts black people as 5/8ths human being? sure it was amended, but still. one of this country's founding documents establishes a segment of its citizenry as not citizens, and not even completely human for that matter. therefore, subject to be property.
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Exactly.
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Well, it isn't the same. Not by a longshot.
But, the point of the matter is that the U.S. has been founded on standards that have been deemed immoral and overturned before. Why can't people get that point? The "founding fathers" did NOT make a perfect country. We are constantly changing and shaping things to fit the modern world. Why is this issue so different?
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So, on the gay marriage issue, to other Christians... I'd have to say, "Let them be."
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Watching that black woman say things about gay people not being hung from trees makes me so sad. Not just because it's a false statement -- someone upthread pointed out Matthew Shepherd and there are more, many more -- but because she can't recognize how sexuality is just as innate and biological as the color of her skin. Her own community and her own people went through a vicious and necessary struggle to gain equal rights they were entitled to in this country. To see her turn around and deny those rights to someone else just as easily, and to not get that she's acting in the way people used to act towards her family and her peers... it's just so sad.
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I personally believe being a homosexual is a subconcious choice caused by a variety of factors like genes, childhood and past experiences as well as tendencies. I think for different people, it can be for different reasons or caused by different "mixtures" of reasons. However because my stance on homosexuality comes from the Bible and what the Bible says, I don't think I have the right to expect everyone else to follow the same rules since most people do not believe in God or the Bible as God's word. So I wouldn't legislate against gay marriage..I'll keep my opinion on gay marriage but I won't stop others from doing what they want because in the end, I don't think homosexuality hurts anyone else other than possibly, and this is just my opinion, the people engaging in it.
05/08/09
This debate needs more people like you.
05/08/09
Hold it right there.
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05/08/09
Additionally, I hold some seriously unpopular opinions, like that marriage is for life and for love, and that living together before marriage is the wrong choice for me. However, like you, I realize that these are my opinions, and I can't expect everyone to agree with me, and therefore I will hold them, express them when appropriate, and keep them out of the law of the land.
05/08/09
(At the end of the day of course it doesn't matter what makes people homosexual. It's no more or less valid if we find a 'gene for it', though you wouldn't know from how some people go on about that... yeah, actions are only validated if their cause can be located in our genome...??)
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05/08/09
I'm often disappointed when I read Christians opinions (or even non-Christians opinions) opposing homosexuality when they don't emphasize that it's an opinion, they just try to force their own views on others. Too many people expect others to live according to the exact same rule book as they do...but the truth of the matter is that in the end, we aren't the ones who will judge.
So I'm happy to get responses like yours. This conversation also needs more insight like yours because it's great that we can disagree while still being able to respect one anothers thoughts.
05/08/09
So, I think her point is that there may be a genetic factor, but it's not something that makes you gay/straight.
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I'm sorry for the confusion, I must admit I myself am not 100% sure that I believe that is the case, that is simply the best balance I can find for what the Bible says with what I know about homosexuality.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I believe that because of our genes, we are all born predisposed to certain types of tendencies. The choice factor is still there though, so we can choose to live out our tendencies or not. By subconcious choice I mean that because perhaps the tendency can feel so strong that it doesn't feel like a choice, it just feels natural...
I agree about not choosing how we are brought up. But our childhood's do mold us to the people we grow up to be so atleast to me it makes sense that it could also mold our sexual identity.
Clochette, you mentioned that it doesn't matter what makes people homosexual. I understand what you are saying. I think whether or not it's predetermined by our genes makes a difference though. If homosexuality is most definately not a choice and completely up to our genes, then I would have no doubt in my mind that it can't be in any way wrong in God's eyes. If it is a choice at any level, I think the argument of whether it is morally right or wrong can be brought up. The ironic thing is we might never know though..which is why I try to keep my opinions as just that: opinions. I don't want to force my views on anyone and I'd gladly hear more from others with opposing views.
05/08/09
The reason that part of the argument is so hurtful to gay people is because it seems to reduce them to their sexual urges. If you have a tendency to fall in love with a person of one or the other gender, and you have a "choice" to form a healthy relationship with the person you're attracted to OR squash your feelings and fake it with someone of the "correct" gender...that's horrible.
Another thing about the Bible stuff is that there was no such thing as a homosexual RELATIONSHIP in those times, just Roman-style male/male sex. So two committed, in-love people of the same gender is never addressed in the Bible. But love is. And, as a Christian, far be it for me to deny someone love.
05/08/09
I agree with you there. My intention was most certainly not to reduce gay people to their sexual urges and I can guarantee you that I honestly do see why someone could fall in love with another person of the same gender. After all, isn't love all about falling in love with the person inside of the body? In the same way as with heterosexual relationships, it's not all about sex or lust it's always about a connection between two people as well.
You brought up a very interesting fact about how they didn't actually have relationships back then, just sex...I've never thought about that aspect of it before to be honest but I appreciate you bringing it up because that can change the context of the message in the Bible.
Anyway, thanks for your views as well. Your last sentence really said it for me. Whether I feel one way or the other I think it's important to love everyone and let them love who they want to.
05/08/09
Just wanted to say that I'm going to bed now so hopefully I don't leave anyone hanging without a reply....but once again i really am happy to have gotten so many mature and thoughtful answers and it's given me a lot to think about for sure!
05/08/09
I appreciate that you're not "taking action" against gay marriage and attempting to be "tolerant" but this morality flaw in your argument is extremely hurtful and one that the anti-gay marriage people exploit to deny gay folks their rights. You're entitled to your opinion of course but I'm not ready to give you a gold star for your "tolerance" when you are pitying homosexuals ("I don't think homosexuality hurts anyone else other than ...the people engaging in it") and taking a stance of moral superiority.
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05/08/09
I mean, is this supposed to be some kind of warning or vision of a dystopian future in which we will be required to display our sexuality on our person at all times? By the way, I can totally see Dov Charney signing up American Apparel to be the official sponsor & outfitter of the coming Gay Inquisition.
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05/08/09
*gasp*
people just don't understand that boxes and labels are silly and often hurtful - and most of the time, only serve a purpose to the people doing the labeling.
@morninggloria: great idea!
05/08/09