It would be good to have more visible, feminist men around. My ex-boyfriend used to shut his fucked up "friends" down and they always seemed to respond better to that then when I or another girl in the room was offended. I think a lot of misogyny is perpetuated by group-think amongst boys -- seeing how far they can get away with saying disrespectful things/wanting to fit in, and for one of their own to have the courage to diverge from the group is extremely helpful. #masculinity
This was interesting to read in that it comes on the heels of a discussion I had this morning; Tucker Max is coming to our university tomorrow, and we (we meaning a bunch of concerned students of both genders, though mostly female) have been organizing to stop it from happening - and have been met with plenty of hostility. And, as our group of angry feminists was saying when we met this morning after class to talk about it, it's incredibly disheartening that most of the guys I know who go to school here are either fans of his or don't care either way. Of course, I know some feminist guys who aren't like that, but too often they feel like the exception rather than the rule. #masculinity
I'm watching this awesome film about this right at this moment, called Tough Guise. If you're not already interested, it's narrated by an adorable scruffy feminist dude. #masculinity
@pesematology: Yes! I watched that movie in my psychology of women class. It's pretty awesome, and I remember thinking how lucky that guy must be with the ladies.
This is a weird thread (and I mean the comments, not the excellent initial post). "Average guys" have no fucked up ideas about gender, or gay guys, or anyone's dad, or anyone's boyfriend. Why, one might almost think that the pressures of masculinity did not in fact exist. #masculinity
@bluebears: People who grew up in the suburbs, or the city, or perhaps even a more rural area, went off to college, found any variety of not particularly exciting jobs, fall in love from time to time, and don't really have any overarching life path that you can write a so-very-concerned trend piece about. (Side note: Courtney Martin was always a pillar of mediocrity when I'd come across her writing a few years ago for the Center for American Progress's college arm... glad to see she's found an essay form that's equally undistinguished.)
And I'm not just using 'normal people' as a stand-in for 'people I know and like'. I've known (and sometimes liked) plenty of anti-feminist assholes of varying degrees, too, and I've written about them in other posts when relevant. I've received no skepticism from the crowd that these people actually exist. It's only when somebody posits that normal, boring, not particularly offensive people exist as well that the snarky questions start. #masculinity
@PilgrimSoul: Straw man time, yay! I've never used the phrase "most men" -- I'm just talking about a pretty big chunk of them. Just as there are a pretty big chunk of men who are awful in any number of ways.
And who asked for anyone to cut anyone slack?
You don't find it the slightest bit suspicious that a lot of people on this comment thread have had good experiences with decent men worth remarking on, just as we've all had experiences with our fair share of assholes as well? #masculinity
@CrapCommentFromADude: Has it ever occurred to you that these so-called everymen wouldn't necessarily bare their soul to you in such a way that would allow you to know their real feelings about cultural expectations of them and how that effects their lives? #masculinity
@CrapCommentFromADude: The very idea that huge swaths of the population live with unquestioned ideas about masculinity - the very fact that you can make that claim - speaks to how deeply entrenched privilege is and how high the stakes are in questioning the status quo. (Especially when that status quo keeps raping your sister, paying your wife less, and selling your mother paper towels by portraying men as idiots. The Patriarchy hurts everyone, dig?)
The unexamined gender is not worth performing. #masculinity
@CrapCommentFromADude: I think I'd rather know why you feel the need to add that thought rather than your definition of "huge swath." From where I'm looking, shit like Prop 8 passes in this country which is full of jus'folks. #masculinity
@CrapCommentFromADude: I find it suspicious that anyone is insisting that there are people out there who are somehow exempt from society, that they form their ideas in isolation from it, and that this whole notion that we live in a state of gender inequality is in crazy Jezebel commenters' heads.
I find it particularly suspicious in a dude who comes into a thread about gender expectations trying to scold women to "remember their privilege" even though it's a concept he's plainly just encountered. And yet, like many folks with privilege, you find the concept useful only insofar as you can use it, without grounding it in sociological analysis, to put the blame on someone else. #masculinity
@bluebears: I get a lot of souls bared to me pretty regularly. I'm rather unique that way.
Also, you're missing the point -- for huge swaths of man-kind, the culture *really doesn't expect much of anything from us*, except the basic things it semi-expects of everyone in our peer groups, male and female (go to college, find a job, etc.). These 'expectations' you speak of are very media-driven, and people who aren't media-obsessive (Sort of the opposite of the Jezebel target demographic) tend not to take much heed of them. #masculinity
@andBegorrah: It's not that they have 'unquestioned ideas about masculinity', it's that they don't take 'masculinity' as a particularly important concept that holds a central, relevant place in their life. #masculinity
@bluebears: And navels look kinda like vaginas! If you're slouching and maybe a little drunk! And that, my friends, is Lady Business, so let's leave it to the femininininists and the interwebbers. #masculinity
@CrapCommentFromADude: Masculinity holds a central place in everyone's life, whether we like it or not, whether we're conscious of it or not, whether we blather about it on the internet or not. That's why it's The Patriarchy. #masculinity
@CrapCommentFromADude: oh thanks for explaining that to me! I have so much trouble with reading comprehension, you wouldn't believe it. You're talking about the segment of the population that's not "media driven." illiterates then? #masculinity
@CrapCommentFromADude: Your claim that "normal people," or "most people" don't think about how entrenched gender roles are proves Courtney's point.
And wow, each of us knows maybe at least one decent man. Amazing. You think bigotry and oppression are somebody else's problem. We get it. #masculinity
@PilgrimSoul: I would gander to say, of course, there are negative and positive mores surrounding the idea of "masculinity." I do think most guys, at some point, feel like they do not measure up to this unattainable idea of "masculinity." This failure, many times, manifests itself in shitty ways like violence, substance abuse, crime, and organized sports (kidding on that one).
But truthfully, it's the demands of compliance to gender norms, and the general opinion that any deviance from "masculinity" is a bad, bad thing, which is inherently due to the fact that its alternative "femininity" is simply unacceptable for males because society views it as degrading.
@zombie_dola: Because the comment I was responding to sarcastically insinuated that we're just blind to the obvious and/or focused on whatever extreme outliers we can find?
I'm from California, actually. Prop 8 attracted a lot of votes. It also attracted a lot of opposition. #masculinity
@PilgrimSoul: The following's a straw-man that nobody's arguing:
"that this whole notion that we live in a state of gender inequality is in crazy Jezebel commenters' heads."
Now, moving on...
""I find it suspicious that anyone is insisting that there are people out there who are somehow exempt from society, that they form their ideas in isolation from it,""
Nobody's arguing this, either. It's not that we're 'exempt from society', it's that a lot of the 'pressures' you're talking about aren't pressures from 'society', per se, but pressures from specific portions of society and the media, and thus far more relevant to the portion of the society that tunes into those sources of information.
""I find it particularly suspicious in a dude who comes into a thread about gender expectations trying to scold women to "remember their privilege" even though it's a concept he's plainly just encountered. ""
Yeah, it's not like I've been reading about and debating these issues for years. Oh, wait! Fuck, I can forward you my personally annotated copy of the White Privilege checklist from an old discussion in my e-mail archives if you're going to be this bad-faith about it.
Also, scolding 'women'? I scolded one specific *person*, who happens to be a woman, because she came off in her comment sounding like a jerk.
""And yet, like many folks with privilege, you find the concept useful only insofar as you can use it,""
Funny, I'd say this last part describes you to a tee. #masculinity
@PilgrimSoul: And yet the comments thread overall here seems to reflect pretty clearly what I'm trying to get through to you. But you'd rather tap-dance over the actual points at issue with B-grade snark.
@CrapCommentFromADude: I have no bad faith; I am going on what you are yourself saying, which I find illogical and self-serving. I'm not sure why anyone needs to personally annotate a White Privilege checklist. I get that you want to claim that this is just a "specific portion of society," but you have no basis in fact to make this claim. Where is this "outside" culture? What does it look like? Bluebears' question to you regarding "Real Americans" was apt here. It seems to me far more likely that your (thus far completely abstract) description of such a culture is your own invention. I can cite examples (as does Courtney) and ground my observations in text. Can you? Or is it simply your assertion that some silent majority exists? Why is that more probable than the contention that we all live in this culture and are all influenced by it?
As for B-grade snark, well, as I often say 'round here, I'm not funny. Never win any besties! But I do know stupid when I see it. #masculinity
@PilgrimSoul: ""I'm not sure why anyone needs to personally annotate a White Privilege checklist.""
To see which parts apply to your own particular situation, and which don't?
"" Where is this "outside" culture? What does it look like? ""
Who said anything about 'outside' culture? Are you going to offer up anything here that isn't a total straw-man? To the extent there's an actual question here at all, it's one already answered above.
""Or is it simply your assertion that some silent majority exists?""
Straw man, again. Never claimed anything about a majority. #masculinity
@SarahMC: Uh, "normal people" was put in facetious quotes. You know, making fun of the idea being offered that obviously those of us in this thread (quite a few people) with positive experiences here that contradict the supposed 'crisis' in the article are just blind to the invisible forces around us or otherwise looking at extreme outliers.
Also, who said 'most people'? Or is that yet another sraw man, along with:
"You think bigotry and oppression are somebody else's problem" #masculinity
@andBegorrah: "": Masculinity holds a central place in everyone's life, whether we like it or not, whether we're conscious of it or not, whether we blather about it on the internet or not. That's why it's The Patriarchy""
Conflating patriarchy and masculinity misses the point entirely. The two are sometimes related, but not at all interchangeable. #masculinity
@CrapCommentFromADude: I'm from California, actually. Prop 8 attracted a lot of votes. It also attracted a lot of opposition.
You're right, just not a huge enough swath of opposition. Unfortunately a huger swath that happened to vote for it quite obviously has "fucked up ideas about gender, [and] gay guys, [and] anyone's dad, [and] anyone's boyfriend." I'm not in the habit of patting myself on the back for being on the losing end. #masculinity
@CrapCommentFromADude: You cannot simply keep claiming that others are making straw men claims when you refuse to substantiate your own on that very basis. #masculinity
From a political perspective, damn right I want to do better. And I've never claimed that people lacking fucked-up ideas were in the majority. And it's sad that so many people bought into the hate that Prop 8 represents.
But 47% is nothing to sneeze at, either.
And sometimes it's worth remembering that decent, otherwise average people comprise a significant chunk of 'people', too. #masculinity
@CrapCommentFromADude: I tried not to respond (per hortense) but since you're all still commenting in this thread, let me just say that the idea of anyone, particularly in America, living above or beyond the reach of the media and the culture at large is ridiculous and those that somehow manage to pull it off are the very small minority that live off the grid.
And if this, "And sometimes it's worth remembering that decent, otherwise average people comprise a significant chunk of 'people', too," isn't a straw man argument then I don't know what is. #masculinity
@PilgrimSoul: ""You cannot simply keep claiming that others are making straw men claims when you refuse to substantiate your own on that very basis.""
Rephrase this in a way that makes logical sense, please.
If you're telling me I'm making an argument that I clearly haven't made, I'm not allowed to call you out on that because...?
And I've substantiated plenty, you simply refuse to accept it. The idea that some people simply aren't voracious consumers of mass media and popular culture, whereas others are, is practically a truism. #masculinity
@bluebears: ""I tried not to respond (per hortense) but since you're all still commenting in this thread, let me just say that the idea of anyone, particularly in America, living above or beyond the reach of the media and the culture at large is ridiculous and those that somehow manage to pull it off are the very small minority that live off the grid.""
Who's saying 'beyond the reach of the media'? It simply plays a very peripheral role in many, many lives.
"Beyond the reach" isn't the key at all. We're simply talking about very limited influence for a lot of people, especially when talking about the sort of issues that breathless trend pieces like the one linked to here are written about. #masculinity
For men and women both, currently the most undervalued character trait in our society is KINDNESS. Please, let's all just try to be a little kinder to each other; that's the place to start. #masculinity
so by "men" the writer means "straight men". i wish this distinction was plainly made. gay men have separate issues about masculinity (and yes, even women) a lot of which concern feeling forced to address "straight men" stereotypes and expectations. maybe for that reason feminism comes easy to me since i can relate to dealing with "straight men" BS. #masculinity
@hughman: Love this comment. Every time I hang out with my gay guy friends I always make this mistake when talking about gender and masculinity and they always call my bullshit. Its important we don't oversimplify issues of gender to the point where queer issues are obscured. Thanks for your comment! #masculinity
@hughman: I do agree that gay-identified men have separate issues with masculinity; Dan Savage writes about how men (gay and straight) have internalized society's expectations of them being horny slutdogs, and how it manifests in a complicated, hyper-promiscuous environment for young gay men. That has resonated with me, as my 2 of my BFFs are gay men and one is scared of "putting himself out there" because of that type of scene, and the other one completely immersed himself in it. When I called him out on his behavior, he routinely would just claim that's "just what guys do." #masculinity
@hughman: Gay men definitely deal with different issues, as you say, and some of the issues I mentioned above (ie. homophobia) are straight-man-specific. But gay men aren't necessarily all feminist allies, and I think a lot of the recommendations I make in the post could apply to young gay men too. #masculinity
@Anna N.: by "writer" in my comment i was referring to the writer of the article not you (as the poster). you're right in that not all gay men are feminist allies which always kind of shocked (and disappointed) me. i come from a very matriarchial family and my bffs were almost always women. and not of the "faghag" type either (and yes, i hate that word but don't know of a different description).
this whole masculinity concept is interesting to me specifically. i'm 6'6" and when i was younger i was a bodybuilder with buzzed hair, goatee, etc. (this was the 80s and 90s). however i also worked in the fashion industry in nyc as a stylist, booker, art director and retail manager of a designer woman's boutique in soho. once i went to a showroom and upon seeing me, the receptionist said "deliveries need to come in through the back elevator". wait! i was there to pick out dresses!
so the whole question of what it means to be "masculine" fascinates me. i didn't "lisp, mince or cut hair" (or whatever generalizations there are) but i did frequent the gym, went dancing every weekend, went to albany and spoke to politicians about AIDS and could do a mean Tina Turner when it was called for.
of course i eventually moved on from all of that and admit i know little about what concerns young gay men have about these issues today. from what i glean on TV, etc. they seem to feel less pressured about appearance and body morphing. maybe? i don't really know. all i do know is i'm glad i took the chance to explore what i could and glad i could combat some of the stereotypes, in my own way, when i got the chance. #masculinity
People are always worried that men are facing a shortage of... something, as if virtually everything in our society-- movies, books, television, the news-- isn't already marketed towards men and primarily devoted to the experiences of men. It's hard to believe that there's a worth-my-attention crisis in finding public figures that men can identify with when the diversity and depth of public roles in which men can be seen is infinitely greater than those in which we see women. #masculinity
@Everything MidnightBikeRide does is a balloon.: I would argue that movies, books, television, and news are just as marketed toward women as they are toward men. The majority of sitcoms, for instance, portray men as fools with no common sense who need their female partners to take control of the household.
Books are hardly a man's arena either. From Twilight to Oprah's book club, it is hard to see how books are marketed towards a male audience.
Let's not forget that this blog is even defined as "for women."
Am I complaining of a lack of public masculine role models? Not necessarily, but to say that all media is somehow skewed to men is becoming more and more false every day. #masculinity
@Justin Paulson: This blog says "for women" because the default, when it comes to blogs is "for men." You'll see "for women" more often than "for men" because men are treated as the default. Women are treated like a niche market. #masculinity
@SarahMC: Perhaps it is "for men" in your mind, but to me I see things as "for all" unless otherwise stated. To assume that things are "for men" just because they are not uniquely described as "for women" is a fallacy. For instance, I spend a lot of time on a gawker site called "Gizmodo," which discusses gadgets. There is nothing inherently masculine about the site, who says that it is "for men?" My wife finds a lot of articles on the site very interesting and informative for women as well. Not to mention the site also has female editors (okay maybe 1.) I think a lot of this is carried over from a time when women were held on a different level than men, but I think those times are being shown more and more to be behind us. To continually hold the views that things are "for men" by default is only prolonging the problem. #masculinity
@Justin Paulson: I'm sure you do see everything as "for all" unless otherwise stated. Privilege is invisible.
However, the male viewpoint is treated as the default viewpoint in basically any setting that isn't labeled "for women." See: the other Gawker sites. Sure, women can get something out of it, but our voices are drowned out and men tend to reign supreme.
BET exists because every other channel is de facto WET. Same applies to women/men. #masculinity
@Justin Paulson: You see things as "for all" because you are a man (and a white one, no less, judging by your picture) living in a patriarchal society and you are seemingly unaware of your privilege.
To deny that things are "for men by default" is actually prolonging the problem, to be quite honest with you. #masculinity
@SarahMC: I strongly disagree that female voices are drowned out on the other gawker sites. I see many articles by females as well as female commenters. Just because men are more prevalent on site does not mean that the views of women on the site are held with any less esteem. And I think BET is inherently racist. Not racist against white people but racist against the very people that created the network, black people. These types of media and classifications do not promote equality at all. In fact, they promote an inequality between races and genders, and that is the problem. These types of media say we are different and need something different, when they should be saying we are just like you and we deserve to be part of everything you are part of. That is my point. Instead of working to create things for women and for african americans the efforts should be set on making these "white male only" institutions for all. That is the only way that you can truly promote equality in gender and race. #masculinity
@Justin Paulson: I will address your first three paragraphs in turn.
A) But remember, when a man is a hapless fool, it's endearing. The day ends with a "d'aww, honey" no matter how much destruction they have wrought, and their wives are more often than not far more physically attractive than them. The man is still the breadwinner while the woman is the housewife, stuck in an effectively passive role - the man never seems to change, does he, no matter how much she calls him out?
It's a grown-up version of "boys will be boys," and the women are trapped in a characterization that is solely reactionary. In those sitcoms they serve only to react to the husbands' antics.
EG: There's an episode of According to Jim in which the title character (d'oh!) forgets to pick up the children at school. The wife shows up in her foils, mad because she had to leave the salon to pick up the kids. She's portrayed as a scary, screaming harpie in that moment, more mad about her salon appointment than the kids being left alone.
And you're telling me stuff like that doesn't play to a male audience?
B) Because it would be unmanly for a man to read any of the books suggested by Oprah, amirite? You're playing right into the point of this post, here. There's a standard of masculinity at play that necessarily excludes the feminine experience by a man. Furthermore, what makes Oprah's book club marketed towards women? Because they are books recommended by a woman?
Yeah, I got nothing more for this point because it is just so ridiculous.
C) Yes, it is defined as being 'for women'. It is a place for women in an internet worldview that is mainly geared towards men. Hence why we are often characterized so harshly as 'bitches' or 'feminazis' by our commenter counterparts over at Gawker. Often when an even remotely feminist comment is made over there, it is met with a dismissive "go back to Jezebel". Bringing the discussion of our experience as women outside of this space and ones similar to it (by which I mean websites that identify as women's issues or feminist) is met with no small level of opposition. We are effectively kept to these spaces by a process of internet ghettoisation.
Yes, it is defined as being 'for women'. Because it needs to be. It needs to be identified as that safe space for women and their issues to be brought forth and discussed. Men's spaces, I might point out, do not need to be identified in this way. Every space is, by default, a man's space. Because that is how the patriarchy manifests.
SarahMC promoted this comment
Edited by lalie (apologetic mess) at 11/10/09 2:44 PM
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@Justin Paulson: Instead of working to create things for women and for african americans the efforts should be set on making these "white male only" institutions for all. That is the only way that you can truly promote equality in gender and race.
I agree, and I'm sure most folks here would agree with you as well. But in the meantime, we need representation and we basically have to settle for scraps. I'm not saying BET or female-focused media is good, or that it necessarily serves their audiences well. I am explaining that what you see as "neutral" is not so. #masculinity
@SarahMC: ""BET exists because every other channel is de facto WET.""
From what I remember reading, BET's audience is primarily white these days? Mainly white suburban kids who actually believe the crap they're selling. The closest thing to the BET of old that exists anymore is TV1. #masculinity
@SarahMC: I guess we can agree to disagree then, you can continue to see a modern world where everything is male until otherwise stated and I can continue to see a modern world where I see things and genderless until otherwise stated. Sure I may be blind in my "privelege," but I will be the first to point out when something is racist or sexist and lacks equal footing for all. I am not denying that there are individuals and even organizations that are sexist and racist, but the fact is that those are the minority, and you can not go into things trying to find ways that they are racist and sexist. You have to view things as neutral until they show that they are not. To view things as a priori racist or sexist is in itself racist and sexist. In order to alleviate yourself of those views you have to view things as neutral until they are proven otherwise a posteriori. #masculinity
I'm not arguing that feminism is sexist. I'm arguing that viewing things as sexist at first glance is sexist and that things ought to be viewed as neutral until they prove themselves to be sexist. To say that all blogs that are not "for women" are automatically "for men" is sexist because you are classifying all blogs before you have even pointed out how or why or what makes them sexist. You are saying they are sexist before they are even given a chance to prove themselves as otherwise.
It is like with law. I feel that things should be innocent until proven guilty. Not guilty until proven innocent. Likewise, a website ought to be seen as neutral until it is proven to be sexist rather than seen as sexist until it is proven to be neutral, as sexism is "guilty" in that is is morally and ethically reprehensible. #masculinity
@Justin Paulson: Re the educational training, I figured.
Okay, let's try this. Why is it sexist to "view things as sexist at first glance?" If what you're trying to say is that assuming the dominant culture is "male" is sexist, then I think you are incorrect. No one is making a value judgment about the dominant culture in observing that it is "for men" - they are making a historical observation. And one well-grounded in fact, I might add.
The missing piece of the puzzle for you, I think, is this: feminists, or at least social constructionist feminists like the ones being discussed here, don't believe that there is a "neutral." They tend to believe that we have been soaking in the gender dichotomy for so long that "neutral" became a smokescreen for "male." See, by assuming that, say, the status quo is that all websites (just to continue your example) are "neutral" until providen "sexist," feminists think you are starting out from a problematic place. #masculinity
@SarahMC: If I wanted to criticize your argument, I'd, well, criticize it. :) I'm pretty willing to engage squarely with ideas I disagree with. I happened to think you stated the issue succinctly and without hyperbole, and any really minor quibbles I'd have wouldn't really add anything to the discussion. I just thought the use of BET as an example was worth a 15-second minor side comment of the "Hey, BET is pretty awful these days amirite" variety.
I agree with those who say that a new kind of gender role isn't what we really need. What would be better is if people tried to be respectful, more thoughtful and compassionate in their dealings with others.
I mean, really, what does it even mean to be a man or a woman? Discussions like these always frustrate me because no one can ever seem to agree on what these premises are without resorting to tired stereotypes. I realize that many people embrace gender roles because they see it as easier somehow, but isn't it easier to just try to be a good person? You certainly have to follow fewer rules, that's for sure. #masculinity
If men weren't constricted by the expectation that they behave like emotionless dick-bots, they'd be a lot happierIf men weren't constricted by the expectation that they behave like emotionless dick-bots, they'd be a lot happier
Yes. See also, alcoholism, proportion of prison population, and normalization of violence. There are a lot of shitty things about the norms that many men adhere to.
But a big part of the problem is simply that the default of what's good, what's appropriate is male. Adopting "feminine" ideas or traits is a bad thing because society finds simply being a woman to be degrading. #masculinity
I really do wish there were more positive men in the media. My (young, white, straight) boyfriend just found out he has privilege. He'd always thought he was one of "the good ones" and that meant he didn't have the same privilege as the straight white men who want to keep "those people" in their place. When it came up and I informed him that you can't get rid of your privilege, he spent a few weeks wallowing in his own guilt. It was not pleasant for anyone involved. I'd love to be able to point to people and go, "see? This is what you do when you have privilege!" Maybe I'll Colbert him. #masculinity
I have little doubt you're exercising your own unexamined privilege by what sounds like gleefully rubbing things in his face for no particular purpose.
The point of recognizing privilege is to recognize all the distance that society has to go before things can truly be called 'equal'.
Using it as a starting off point for a pissing contest as to which of you is the more enlightened one misses the point entirely. #masculinity
@CrapCommentFromADude: Who said anything about "gleefully" rubbing things in his face? Someone insisting that there is no such thing as a patriarchy or that since they don't "choose" their privilege it doesn't exist needs to be told otherwise. At no point did I tell him it was his fault for having privilege or that it made him a bad person, and I missed the part in my original statement that said I did. I'm not going to get into an argument with you about something that wasn't even mentioned in my original comment. #masculinity
@Zombie Ms. Skittles: What sounded 'gleeful'? For starters, you're bragging about taking your boyfriend to task on a public forum. Oh, but you 'informed' him! How noble of you!
And absolutely no mention that your privilege in the world came up as a topic of discussion... #masculinity
@PilgrimSoul: I know I shouldn't even engage him and I resisted the urge on the other topics. I wish I could reply to people without bumping them. #masculinity
I'm getting my PhD at Southern Methodist University, which has Rape Culture like whoa. It is shocking to read the number of sexual assaults reported in the newspaper, and even more shocking to hear the victim-blaming that goes on. There was a girl who was drugged and raped at a frat party; she came to, called the police, and then her name was absolutely dragged through the mud on (the thankfully defunct) JuicyCampus.com
The point of this story is: a guy I went to high school with went to SMU for his undergrad. He was a frat boy there, and I guess was appalled at the way men were treating the young women of SMU, and he started Men with Integrity, which was essentially a group that was
1) committed to not raping the co-eds
2) doing reasonable things (like peer pressure and calling the cops) to prevent/report rape
It made me really sad that they had to have such a group, but glad that there was one. It seems to have gone by the wayside since his graduation, though...I would say that my friend had Modern Masculinity down. #masculinity
I don't know, trying to be one of the "good ones" isn't enough for me.
I applaud young men who attempt to awaken themselves. But, honestly, if we want more feminist young men, we need more awesome feminist mothers (and fathers). #masculinity
The most practical thing that we can do is refuse to reward assholes by having sex with them. If enough women refuse to have sex with them, eventually they'll be bred out. #masculinity
To answer your question: My Dad. He's a burly mountain man who admittedly has spent most of his life friends with gay men and working with female doctors. He's been helping to deliver womens babies and is considered an honest and caring physician by the women he works with. His nurses love him because he recognizes that he's not able to do his job without them. He's raised two daughters to be self-sufficient, confident, successful young women. Everything he's done, he's done for the betterment of his family. While he likes to shoot guns and smoke cigars and drink bourbon and whiskey, he was also the king in my ballet recital (complete with tights) and happily sat in on tea parties and allowed my sister and I do play beauty shop with his hair. That's a real man. Also, did I mention he once cut his leg wide open with knife while whittling me a sling-shot in the mountains and he sowed his own leg up? He also has a giant mustache. My father will give any young man lessons in being manly if they want, for free. #masculinity
@Jenloveshercurves: Direct dad quote (mind you he is a libertarian conservative, but is also a feminist): "If we want women in the work force, and I think we as a society want and need that because female workers are essential to our democracy, we have to make room for women to be both mothers and workers. I think that means we are going to have to fundamentally change as a society."
He thinks that young men need to learn not to shirk their responsibilities to their children and family. He's been with my mother since he was 16. She's fully his partner. #masculinity
@Jenloveshercurves: Sounds like my husband. My husband watches football, lives in t-shirts and cargo shorts, rides a motorcycle and loves AC/DC.
He also loves to hang with the nieces and nephews, calls out dudes at AA for their sexist bullshit, more than pulls his weight around the house and works with teenagers as a drug and alcohol counselor.
A young man who wants to model himself after my husband would do well to do so. #masculinity
@Jenloveshercurves: My dad was Mr. Football Jock growing up--none of his three kids turned out the same, and he happily drove us to rehearsals/music contests/movie nights with our wacky artsy friends, not to mention attended every single performance (and with three kids in the house spread out over 28 years, that's a LOT of recitals/shows/plays).
I've never been prouder of him than when he complimented my double pirouette (using those words!) after my dance recital senior year. Go Dad. #masculinity
@Jenloveshercurves: I was joking around! Just seems like your dad rasied awesome daughters! I wish I could meet a masculine guy who respects women. But it seems like a hard combination to come by! #masculinity
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And I'm not just using 'normal people' as a stand-in for 'people I know and like'. I've known (and sometimes liked) plenty of anti-feminist assholes of varying degrees, too, and I've written about them in other posts when relevant. I've received no skepticism from the crowd that these people actually exist. It's only when somebody posits that normal, boring, not particularly offensive people exist as well that the snarky questions start. #masculinity
02:12 PM
And who asked for anyone to cut anyone slack?
You don't find it the slightest bit suspicious that a lot of people on this comment thread have had good experiences with decent men worth remarking on, just as we've all had experiences with our fair share of assholes as well? #masculinity
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The unexamined gender is not worth performing. #masculinity
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I find it particularly suspicious in a dude who comes into a thread about gender expectations trying to scold women to "remember their privilege" even though it's a concept he's plainly just encountered. And yet, like many folks with privilege, you find the concept useful only insofar as you can use it, without grounding it in sociological analysis, to put the blame on someone else. #masculinity
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Also, you're missing the point -- for huge swaths of man-kind, the culture *really doesn't expect much of anything from us*, except the basic things it semi-expects of everyone in our peer groups, male and female (go to college, find a job, etc.). These 'expectations' you speak of are very media-driven, and people who aren't media-obsessive (Sort of the opposite of the Jezebel target demographic) tend not to take much heed of them. #masculinity
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And wow, each of us knows maybe at least one decent man. Amazing. You think bigotry and oppression are somebody else's problem. We get it. #masculinity
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But truthfully, it's the demands of compliance to gender norms, and the general opinion that any deviance from "masculinity" is a bad, bad thing, which is inherently due to the fact that its alternative "femininity" is simply unacceptable for males because society views it as degrading.
This thread is odd.
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I'm from California, actually. Prop 8 attracted a lot of votes. It also attracted a lot of opposition. #masculinity
02:44 PM
"that this whole notion that we live in a state of gender inequality is in crazy Jezebel commenters' heads."
Now, moving on...
""I find it suspicious that anyone is insisting that there are people out there who are somehow exempt from society, that they form their ideas in isolation from it,""
Nobody's arguing this, either. It's not that we're 'exempt from society', it's that a lot of the 'pressures' you're talking about aren't pressures from 'society', per se, but pressures from specific portions of society and the media, and thus far more relevant to the portion of the society that tunes into those sources of information.
""I find it particularly suspicious in a dude who comes into a thread about gender expectations trying to scold women to "remember their privilege" even though it's a concept he's plainly just encountered. ""
Yeah, it's not like I've been reading about and debating these issues for years. Oh, wait! Fuck, I can forward you my personally annotated copy of the White Privilege checklist from an old discussion in my e-mail archives if you're going to be this bad-faith about it.
Also, scolding 'women'? I scolded one specific *person*, who happens to be a woman, because she came off in her comment sounding like a jerk.
""And yet, like many folks with privilege, you find the concept useful only insofar as you can use it,""
Funny, I'd say this last part describes you to a tee. #masculinity
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As for B-grade snark, well, as I often say 'round here, I'm not funny. Never win any besties! But I do know stupid when I see it. #masculinity
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To see which parts apply to your own particular situation, and which don't?
"" Where is this "outside" culture? What does it look like? ""
Who said anything about 'outside' culture? Are you going to offer up anything here that isn't a total straw-man? To the extent there's an actual question here at all, it's one already answered above.
""Or is it simply your assertion that some silent majority exists?""
Straw man, again. Never claimed anything about a majority. #masculinity
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Also, who said 'most people'? Or is that yet another sraw man, along with:
"You think bigotry and oppression are somebody else's problem" #masculinity
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Conflating patriarchy and masculinity misses the point entirely. The two are sometimes related, but not at all interchangeable. #masculinity
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You're right, just not a huge enough swath of opposition. Unfortunately a huger swath that happened to vote for it quite obviously has "fucked up ideas about gender, [and] gay guys, [and] anyone's dad, [and] anyone's boyfriend." I'm not in the habit of patting myself on the back for being on the losing end. #masculinity
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From a political perspective, damn right I want to do better. And I've never claimed that people lacking fucked-up ideas were in the majority. And it's sad that so many people bought into the hate that Prop 8 represents.
But 47% is nothing to sneeze at, either.
And sometimes it's worth remembering that decent, otherwise average people comprise a significant chunk of 'people', too. #masculinity
03:49 PM
And if this, "And sometimes it's worth remembering that decent, otherwise average people comprise a significant chunk of 'people', too," isn't a straw man argument then I don't know what is. #masculinity
03:55 PM
Rephrase this in a way that makes logical sense, please.
If you're telling me I'm making an argument that I clearly haven't made, I'm not allowed to call you out on that because...?
And I've substantiated plenty, you simply refuse to accept it. The idea that some people simply aren't voracious consumers of mass media and popular culture, whereas others are, is practically a truism. #masculinity
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Who's saying 'beyond the reach of the media'? It simply plays a very peripheral role in many, many lives.
"Beyond the reach" isn't the key at all. We're simply talking about very limited influence for a lot of people, especially when talking about the sort of issues that breathless trend pieces like the one linked to here are written about. #masculinity
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As the Dalai Lama says: If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion. #masculinity
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this whole masculinity concept is interesting to me specifically. i'm 6'6" and when i was younger i was a bodybuilder with buzzed hair, goatee, etc. (this was the 80s and 90s). however i also worked in the fashion industry in nyc as a stylist, booker, art director and retail manager of a designer woman's boutique in soho. once i went to a showroom and upon seeing me, the receptionist said "deliveries need to come in through the back elevator". wait! i was there to pick out dresses!
so the whole question of what it means to be "masculine" fascinates me. i didn't "lisp, mince or cut hair" (or whatever generalizations there are) but i did frequent the gym, went dancing every weekend, went to albany and spoke to politicians about AIDS and could do a mean Tina Turner when it was called for.
of course i eventually moved on from all of that and admit i know little about what concerns young gay men have about these issues today. from what i glean on TV, etc. they seem to feel less pressured about appearance and body morphing. maybe? i don't really know. all i do know is i'm glad i took the chance to explore what i could and glad i could combat some of the stereotypes, in my own way, when i got the chance. #masculinity
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Books are hardly a man's arena either. From Twilight to Oprah's book club, it is hard to see how books are marketed towards a male audience.
Let's not forget that this blog is even defined as "for women."
Am I complaining of a lack of public masculine role models? Not necessarily, but to say that all media is somehow skewed to men is becoming more and more false every day. #masculinity
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However, the male viewpoint is treated as the default viewpoint in basically any setting that isn't labeled "for women." See: the other Gawker sites. Sure, women can get something out of it, but our voices are drowned out and men tend to reign supreme.
BET exists because every other channel is de facto WET. Same applies to women/men. #masculinity
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To deny that things are "for men by default" is actually prolonging the problem, to be quite honest with you. #masculinity
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A) But remember, when a man is a hapless fool, it's endearing. The day ends with a "d'aww, honey" no matter how much destruction they have wrought, and their wives are more often than not far more physically attractive than them. The man is still the breadwinner while the woman is the housewife, stuck in an effectively passive role - the man never seems to change, does he, no matter how much she calls him out?
It's a grown-up version of "boys will be boys," and the women are trapped in a characterization that is solely reactionary. In those sitcoms they serve only to react to the husbands' antics.
EG: There's an episode of According to Jim in which the title character (d'oh!) forgets to pick up the children at school. The wife shows up in her foils, mad because she had to leave the salon to pick up the kids. She's portrayed as a scary, screaming harpie in that moment, more mad about her salon appointment than the kids being left alone.
And you're telling me stuff like that doesn't play to a male audience?
B) Because it would be unmanly for a man to read any of the books suggested by Oprah, amirite? You're playing right into the point of this post, here. There's a standard of masculinity at play that necessarily excludes the feminine experience by a man. Furthermore, what makes Oprah's book club marketed towards women? Because they are books recommended by a woman?
Yeah, I got nothing more for this point because it is just so ridiculous.
C) Yes, it is defined as being 'for women'. It is a place for women in an internet worldview that is mainly geared towards men. Hence why we are often characterized so harshly as 'bitches' or 'feminazis' by our commenter counterparts over at Gawker. Often when an even remotely feminist comment is made over there, it is met with a dismissive "go back to Jezebel". Bringing the discussion of our experience as women outside of this space and ones similar to it (by which I mean websites that identify as women's issues or feminist) is met with no small level of opposition. We are effectively kept to these spaces by a process of internet ghettoisation.
Yes, it is defined as being 'for women'. Because it needs to be. It needs to be identified as that safe space for women and their issues to be brought forth and discussed. Men's spaces, I might point out, do not need to be identified in this way. Every space is, by default, a man's space. Because that is how the patriarchy manifests.
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I agree, and I'm sure most folks here would agree with you as well. But in the meantime, we need representation and we basically have to settle for scraps. I'm not saying BET or female-focused media is good, or that it necessarily serves their audiences well. I am explaining that what you see as "neutral" is not so. #masculinity
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From what I remember reading, BET's audience is primarily white these days? Mainly white suburban kids who actually believe the crap they're selling. The closest thing to the BET of old that exists anymore is TV1. #masculinity
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(for the record, I basically agree with the main argument) #masculinity
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As for this, "To view things as a priori racist or sexist is in itself racist and sexist." Hoo boy. [finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com] #masculinity
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I'm not arguing that feminism is sexist. I'm arguing that viewing things as sexist at first glance is sexist and that things ought to be viewed as neutral until they prove themselves to be sexist. To say that all blogs that are not "for women" are automatically "for men" is sexist because you are classifying all blogs before you have even pointed out how or why or what makes them sexist. You are saying they are sexist before they are even given a chance to prove themselves as otherwise.
It is like with law. I feel that things should be innocent until proven guilty. Not guilty until proven innocent. Likewise, a website ought to be seen as neutral until it is proven to be sexist rather than seen as sexist until it is proven to be neutral, as sexism is "guilty" in that is is morally and ethically reprehensible. #masculinity
03:37 PM
Okay, let's try this. Why is it sexist to "view things as sexist at first glance?" If what you're trying to say is that assuming the dominant culture is "male" is sexist, then I think you are incorrect. No one is making a value judgment about the dominant culture in observing that it is "for men" - they are making a historical observation. And one well-grounded in fact, I might add.
The missing piece of the puzzle for you, I think, is this: feminists, or at least social constructionist feminists like the ones being discussed here, don't believe that there is a "neutral." They tend to believe that we have been soaking in the gender dichotomy for so long that "neutral" became a smokescreen for "male." See, by assuming that, say, the status quo is that all websites (just to continue your example) are "neutral" until providen "sexist," feminists think you are starting out from a problematic place. #masculinity
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I mean, really, what does it even mean to be a man or a woman? Discussions like these always frustrate me because no one can ever seem to agree on what these premises are without resorting to tired stereotypes. I realize that many people embrace gender roles because they see it as easier somehow, but isn't it easier to just try to be a good person? You certainly have to follow fewer rules, that's for sure. #masculinity
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Yes. See also, alcoholism, proportion of prison population, and normalization of violence. There are a lot of shitty things about the norms that many men adhere to.
But a big part of the problem is simply that the default of what's good, what's appropriate is male. Adopting "feminine" ideas or traits is a bad thing because society finds simply being a woman to be degrading. #masculinity
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I have no doubt he has privilege.
I have little doubt you're exercising your own unexamined privilege by what sounds like gleefully rubbing things in his face for no particular purpose.
The point of recognizing privilege is to recognize all the distance that society has to go before things can truly be called 'equal'.
Using it as a starting off point for a pissing contest as to which of you is the more enlightened one misses the point entirely. #masculinity
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And absolutely no mention that your privilege in the world came up as a topic of discussion... #masculinity
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(You said nothing wrong.) #masculinity
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@PilgrimSoul: I know I shouldn't even engage him and I resisted the urge on the other topics. I wish I could reply to people without bumping them. #masculinity
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The point of this story is: a guy I went to high school with went to SMU for his undergrad. He was a frat boy there, and I guess was appalled at the way men were treating the young women of SMU, and he started Men with Integrity, which was essentially a group that was
1) committed to not raping the co-eds
2) doing reasonable things (like peer pressure and calling the cops) to prevent/report rape
It made me really sad that they had to have such a group, but glad that there was one. It seems to have gone by the wayside since his graduation, though...I would say that my friend had Modern Masculinity down. #masculinity
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I applaud young men who attempt to awaken themselves. But, honestly, if we want more feminist young men, we need more awesome feminist mothers (and fathers). #masculinity
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He thinks that young men need to learn not to shirk their responsibilities to their children and family. He's been with my mother since he was 16. She's fully his partner. #masculinity
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He also loves to hang with the nieces and nephews, calls out dudes at AA for their sexist bullshit, more than pulls his weight around the house and works with teenagers as a drug and alcohol counselor.
A young man who wants to model himself after my husband would do well to do so. #masculinity
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I've never been prouder of him than when he complimented my double pirouette (using those words!) after my dance recital senior year. Go Dad. #masculinity
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