Jezebel 
Enter your username and password.
New York, 3:58 PM
Tue Nov 10
73 posts in the last 24 hours
Tip your editors:
tips@jezebel.com
Editor-in-Chief:
Anna Holmes
Email | Twitter
Deputy Editor:
Dodai Stewart
Email | Twitter
Senior Contributing Editor:
Tracie Egan
Email | Twitter
Contributing Editors:
Anna North
Email | Twitter
Sadie Stein
Email | Twitter
Reporter:
Irin Carmon
Email
Editorial Assistant:
Margaret Hartmann
Email | Twitter
Contributors:
Jenna Sauers
Email
Rich Juzwiak
Email | Twitter
Lizzie Skurnick
Email
Interns:
Katy Kelleher
Twitter
Original material is licensed under a Creative Commons License permitting non-commercial sharing with attribution.
02:45 PM
02:19 PM
02:06 PM
02:24 PM
02:41 PM
02:50 PM
01:47 PM
01:57 PM
02:00 PM
02:03 PM
02:05 PM
02:05 PM
02:07 PM
02:10 PM
And I'm not just using 'normal people' as a stand-in for 'people I know and like'. I've known (and sometimes liked) plenty of anti-feminist assholes of varying degrees, too, and I've written about them in other posts when relevant. I've received no skepticism from the crowd that these people actually exist. It's only when somebody posits that normal, boring, not particularly offensive people exist as well that the snarky questions start. #masculinity
02:12 PM
And who asked for anyone to cut anyone slack?
You don't find it the slightest bit suspicious that a lot of people on this comment thread have had good experiences with decent men worth remarking on, just as we've all had experiences with our fair share of assholes as well? #masculinity
02:12 PM
02:16 PM
The unexamined gender is not worth performing. #masculinity
02:18 PM
02:20 PM
I find it particularly suspicious in a dude who comes into a thread about gender expectations trying to scold women to "remember their privilege" even though it's a concept he's plainly just encountered. And yet, like many folks with privilege, you find the concept useful only insofar as you can use it, without grounding it in sociological analysis, to put the blame on someone else. #masculinity
02:21 PM
02:22 PM
Also, you're missing the point -- for huge swaths of man-kind, the culture *really doesn't expect much of anything from us*, except the basic things it semi-expects of everyone in our peer groups, male and female (go to college, find a job, etc.). These 'expectations' you speak of are very media-driven, and people who aren't media-obsessive (Sort of the opposite of the Jezebel target demographic) tend not to take much heed of them. #masculinity
02:23 PM
02:23 PM
02:24 PM
02:27 PM
02:27 PM
02:29 PM
02:30 PM
02:33 PM
02:33 PM
And wow, each of us knows maybe at least one decent man. Amazing. You think bigotry and oppression are somebody else's problem. We get it. #masculinity
02:34 PM
02:38 PM
But truthfully, it's the demands of compliance to gender norms, and the general opinion that any deviance from "masculinity" is a bad, bad thing, which is inherently due to the fact that its alternative "femininity" is simply unacceptable for males because society views it as degrading.
This thread is odd.
02:39 PM
02:39 PM
I'm from California, actually. Prop 8 attracted a lot of votes. It also attracted a lot of opposition. #masculinity
02:44 PM
"that this whole notion that we live in a state of gender inequality is in crazy Jezebel commenters' heads."
Now, moving on...
""I find it suspicious that anyone is insisting that there are people out there who are somehow exempt from society, that they form their ideas in isolation from it,""
Nobody's arguing this, either. It's not that we're 'exempt from society', it's that a lot of the 'pressures' you're talking about aren't pressures from 'society', per se, but pressures from specific portions of society and the media, and thus far more relevant to the portion of the society that tunes into those sources of information.
""I find it particularly suspicious in a dude who comes into a thread about gender expectations trying to scold women to "remember their privilege" even though it's a concept he's plainly just encountered. ""
Yeah, it's not like I've been reading about and debating these issues for years. Oh, wait! Fuck, I can forward you my personally annotated copy of the White Privilege checklist from an old discussion in my e-mail archives if you're going to be this bad-faith about it.
Also, scolding 'women'? I scolded one specific *person*, who happens to be a woman, because she came off in her comment sounding like a jerk.
""And yet, like many folks with privilege, you find the concept useful only insofar as you can use it,""
Funny, I'd say this last part describes you to a tee. #masculinity
02:46 PM
02:51 PM
02:56 PM
As for B-grade snark, well, as I often say 'round here, I'm not funny. Never win any besties! But I do know stupid when I see it. #masculinity
02:59 PM
03:13 PM
To see which parts apply to your own particular situation, and which don't?
"" Where is this "outside" culture? What does it look like? ""
Who said anything about 'outside' culture? Are you going to offer up anything here that isn't a total straw-man? To the extent there's an actual question here at all, it's one already answered above.
""Or is it simply your assertion that some silent majority exists?""
Straw man, again. Never claimed anything about a majority. #masculinity
03:14 PM
03:18 PM
Also, who said 'most people'? Or is that yet another sraw man, along with:
"You think bigotry and oppression are somebody else's problem" #masculinity
03:19 PM
03:22 PM
Conflating patriarchy and masculinity misses the point entirely. The two are sometimes related, but not at all interchangeable. #masculinity
03:27 PM
You're right, just not a huge enough swath of opposition. Unfortunately a huger swath that happened to vote for it quite obviously has "fucked up ideas about gender, [and] gay guys, [and] anyone's dad, [and] anyone's boyfriend." I'm not in the habit of patting myself on the back for being on the losing end. #masculinity
03:38 PM
03:41 PM
From a political perspective, damn right I want to do better. And I've never claimed that people lacking fucked-up ideas were in the majority. And it's sad that so many people bought into the hate that Prop 8 represents.
But 47% is nothing to sneeze at, either.
And sometimes it's worth remembering that decent, otherwise average people comprise a significant chunk of 'people', too. #masculinity
03:49 PM
And if this, "And sometimes it's worth remembering that decent, otherwise average people comprise a significant chunk of 'people', too," isn't a straw man argument then I don't know what is. #masculinity
03:55 PM
Rephrase this in a way that makes logical sense, please.
If you're telling me I'm making an argument that I clearly haven't made, I'm not allowed to call you out on that because...?
And I've substantiated plenty, you simply refuse to accept it. The idea that some people simply aren't voracious consumers of mass media and popular culture, whereas others are, is practically a truism. #masculinity
03:57 PM
03:58 PM
Who's saying 'beyond the reach of the media'? It simply plays a very peripheral role in many, many lives.
"Beyond the reach" isn't the key at all. We're simply talking about very limited influence for a lot of people, especially when talking about the sort of issues that breathless trend pieces like the one linked to here are written about. #masculinity
01:19 PM
02:11 PM
As the Dalai Lama says: If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion. #masculinity
01:15 PM
01:22 PM
01:24 PM
02:15 PM
03:06 PM
this whole masculinity concept is interesting to me specifically. i'm 6'6" and when i was younger i was a bodybuilder with buzzed hair, goatee, etc. (this was the 80s and 90s). however i also worked in the fashion industry in nyc as a stylist, booker, art director and retail manager of a designer woman's boutique in soho. once i went to a showroom and upon seeing me, the receptionist said "deliveries need to come in through the back elevator". wait! i was there to pick out dresses!
so the whole question of what it means to be "masculine" fascinates me. i didn't "lisp, mince or cut hair" (or whatever generalizations there are) but i did frequent the gym, went dancing every weekend, went to albany and spoke to politicians about AIDS and could do a mean Tina Turner when it was called for.
of course i eventually moved on from all of that and admit i know little about what concerns young gay men have about these issues today. from what i glean on TV, etc. they seem to feel less pressured about appearance and body morphing. maybe? i don't really know. all i do know is i'm glad i took the chance to explore what i could and glad i could combat some of the stereotypes, in my own way, when i got the chance. #masculinity
01:13 PM
01:30 PM
Books are hardly a man's arena either. From Twilight to Oprah's book club, it is hard to see how books are marketed towards a male audience.
Let's not forget that this blog is even defined as "for women."
Am I complaining of a lack of public masculine role models? Not necessarily, but to say that all media is somehow skewed to men is becoming more and more false every day. #masculinity
02:07 PM
02:20 PM
02:23 PM
02:24 PM
However, the male viewpoint is treated as the default viewpoint in basically any setting that isn't labeled "for women." See: the other Gawker sites. Sure, women can get something out of it, but our voices are drowned out and men tend to reign supreme.
BET exists because every other channel is de facto WET. Same applies to women/men. #masculinity
02:26 PM
To deny that things are "for men by default" is actually prolonging the problem, to be quite honest with you. #masculinity
02:34 PM
02:37 PM
A) But remember, when a man is a hapless fool, it's endearing. The day ends with a "d'aww, honey" no matter how much destruction they have wrought, and their wives are more often than not far more physically attractive than them. The man is still the breadwinner while the woman is the housewife, stuck in an effectively passive role - the man never seems to change, does he, no matter how much she calls him out?
It's a grown-up version of "boys will be boys," and the women are trapped in a characterization that is solely reactionary. In those sitcoms they serve only to react to the husbands' antics.
EG: There's an episode of According to Jim in which the title character (d'oh!) forgets to pick up the children at school. The wife shows up in her foils, mad because she had to leave the salon to pick up the kids. She's portrayed as a scary, screaming harpie in that moment, more mad about her salon appointment than the kids being left alone.
And you're telling me stuff like that doesn't play to a male audience?
B) Because it would be unmanly for a man to read any of the books suggested by Oprah, amirite? You're playing right into the point of this post, here. There's a standard of masculinity at play that necessarily excludes the feminine experience by a man. Furthermore, what makes Oprah's book club marketed towards women? Because they are books recommended by a woman?
Yeah, I got nothing more for this point because it is just so ridiculous.
C) Yes, it is defined as being 'for women'. It is a place for women in an internet worldview that is mainly geared towards men. Hence why we are often characterized so harshly as 'bitches' or 'feminazis' by our commenter counterparts over at Gawker. Often when an even remotely feminist comment is made over there, it is met with a dismissive "go back to Jezebel". Bringing the discussion of our experience as women outside of this space and ones similar to it (by which I mean websites that identify as women's issues or feminist) is met with no small level of opposition. We are effectively kept to these spaces by a process of internet ghettoisation.
Yes, it is defined as being 'for women'. Because it needs to be. It needs to be identified as that safe space for women and their issues to be brought forth and discussed. Men's spaces, I might point out, do not need to be identified in this way. Every space is, by default, a man's space. Because that is how the patriarchy manifests.
02:40 PM
I agree, and I'm sure most folks here would agree with you as well. But in the meantime, we need representation and we basically have to settle for scraps. I'm not saying BET or female-focused media is good, or that it necessarily serves their audiences well. I am explaining that what you see as "neutral" is not so. #masculinity
02:41 PM
02:50 PM
From what I remember reading, BET's audience is primarily white these days? Mainly white suburban kids who actually believe the crap they're selling. The closest thing to the BET of old that exists anymore is TV1. #masculinity
02:52 PM
03:01 PM
03:05 PM
(for the record, I basically agree with the main argument) #masculinity
03:06 PM
As for this, "To view things as a priori racist or sexist is in itself racist and sexist." Hoo boy. [finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com] #masculinity
03:08 PM
03:11 PM
I'm not arguing that feminism is sexist. I'm arguing that viewing things as sexist at first glance is sexist and that things ought to be viewed as neutral until they prove themselves to be sexist. To say that all blogs that are not "for women" are automatically "for men" is sexist because you are classifying all blogs before you have even pointed out how or why or what makes them sexist. You are saying they are sexist before they are even given a chance to prove themselves as otherwise.
It is like with law. I feel that things should be innocent until proven guilty. Not guilty until proven innocent. Likewise, a website ought to be seen as neutral until it is proven to be sexist rather than seen as sexist until it is proven to be neutral, as sexism is "guilty" in that is is morally and ethically reprehensible. #masculinity
03:37 PM
Okay, let's try this. Why is it sexist to "view things as sexist at first glance?" If what you're trying to say is that assuming the dominant culture is "male" is sexist, then I think you are incorrect. No one is making a value judgment about the dominant culture in observing that it is "for men" - they are making a historical observation. And one well-grounded in fact, I might add.
The missing piece of the puzzle for you, I think, is this: feminists, or at least social constructionist feminists like the ones being discussed here, don't believe that there is a "neutral." They tend to believe that we have been soaking in the gender dichotomy for so long that "neutral" became a smokescreen for "male." See, by assuming that, say, the status quo is that all websites (just to continue your example) are "neutral" until providen "sexist," feminists think you are starting out from a problematic place. #masculinity
03:37 PM
01:13 PM
I mean, really, what does it even mean to be a man or a woman? Discussions like these always frustrate me because no one can ever seem to agree on what these premises are without resorting to tired stereotypes. I realize that many people embrace gender roles because they see it as easier somehow, but isn't it easier to just try to be a good person? You certainly have to follow fewer rules, that's for sure. #masculinity
01:13 PM
Yes. See also, alcoholism, proportion of prison population, and normalization of violence. There are a lot of shitty things about the norms that many men adhere to.
But a big part of the problem is simply that the default of what's good, what's appropriate is male. Adopting "feminine" ideas or traits is a bad thing because society finds simply being a woman to be degrading. #masculinity
01:11 PM
01:25 PM
I have no doubt he has privilege.
I have little doubt you're exercising your own unexamined privilege by what sounds like gleefully rubbing things in his face for no particular purpose.
The point of recognizing privilege is to recognize all the distance that society has to go before things can truly be called 'equal'.
Using it as a starting off point for a pissing contest as to which of you is the more enlightened one misses the point entirely. #masculinity
01:30 PM
01:55 PM
And absolutely no mention that your privilege in the world came up as a topic of discussion... #masculinity
01:57 PM
(You said nothing wrong.) #masculinity
01:59 PM
@PilgrimSoul: I know I shouldn't even engage him and I resisted the urge on the other topics. I wish I could reply to people without bumping them. #masculinity
01:09 PM
The point of this story is: a guy I went to high school with went to SMU for his undergrad. He was a frat boy there, and I guess was appalled at the way men were treating the young women of SMU, and he started Men with Integrity, which was essentially a group that was
1) committed to not raping the co-eds
2) doing reasonable things (like peer pressure and calling the cops) to prevent/report rape
It made me really sad that they had to have such a group, but glad that there was one. It seems to have gone by the wayside since his graduation, though...I would say that my friend had Modern Masculinity down. #masculinity
01:07 PM
12:58 PM
I applaud young men who attempt to awaken themselves. But, honestly, if we want more feminist young men, we need more awesome feminist mothers (and fathers). #masculinity
12:58 PM
01:21 PM
01:30 PM
01:54 PM
02:08 PM
02:13 PM
02:21 PM
12:56 PM
01:01 PM
01:01 PM
01:03 PM
He thinks that young men need to learn not to shirk their responsibilities to their children and family. He's been with my mother since he was 16. She's fully his partner. #masculinity
01:04 PM
01:04 PM
01:18 PM
He also loves to hang with the nieces and nephews, calls out dudes at AA for their sexist bullshit, more than pulls his weight around the house and works with teenagers as a drug and alcohol counselor.
A young man who wants to model himself after my husband would do well to do so. #masculinity
01:24 PM
I've never been prouder of him than when he complimented my double pirouette (using those words!) after my dance recital senior year. Go Dad. #masculinity
02:33 PM