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Letter To California: Hate Won't Solve 8
New York, 5:35 PM
Thu Nov 12
73 posts in the last 24 hours
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Letter To California: Hate Won't Solve 8 |
Original material is licensed under a Creative Commons License permitting non-commercial sharing with attribution.
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There are approximately 750,000 members of the Church in California (including those members who are not old enough to vote). The population of California is approximately 36,553,200, making Mormons about 2% of the population. That said, even if every Mormon of voting age voted yes on Prop. 8, they would only have been responsible for about 4% of the total number of voters who voted yes.
The Church did not donate any money to the Yes on Prop. 8 campaign. Any money donated came directly from the members' own personal funds. The Church does encourage members to be actively involved in the politics of each member's respective country and also encourages Church members to support initiatives that would protect the family.
Church members are very disheartened that they are being targeted as "bigots" and that people believe they voted yes on Prop. 8 out of hatred. The Church issued a statement Nov. 7 that said, "It is disturbing that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is being singled out for speaking up as part of its democratic right in a free election…. While those who disagree with our position on Proposition 8 have the right to make their feelings known, it is wrong to target the Church and its sacred places of worship for being part of the democratic process" ([www.newsroom.lds.org]).
The Church is not "afraid" of homosexuals. Mormons love those who have homosexual tendencies and believe that God loves them, too. The reason the Church encouraged its members to vote yes on Prop. 8 was to protect the definition of marriage, which historically has been a sacred institution between a man and woman. This is not a new stance for the Church (nor is it a unique one, as many Christians share this view). In 1995, Church leaders issued a statement titled "The Family: A Proclamation to the World," in which it states, "The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity."
For more on what the LDS Church believes, go to www.mormon.org.
11/10/08
But, why should I exempt the LDS Church as a whole from criticism when it says The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan.
And why should I exempt individuals from criticism when they make their decisions based on what Church leaders say?
It seems plain that the LDS Church certainly did have a hand in this, and for that it deserves criticism.
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I think the Governor is spouting the Republican line about marriage between a man and a woman, but also at the same time thinking that it shouldn't really be a government question, and CA should be more progressive on this issue than other states. The problem is that an answer like that doesn't come in an easily packaged soundbite. Which is how you got commercials saying Obama/Schwarzenegger believes marriage is between a man and a woman and then other commercials where he says he doesn't support Prop 8.
Also, the Governor is very socially liberal and not very Republican in a lot of ways, but he's got to start thinking about his future political aspirations at a national level (and we see what that does to a "maverick's" politics).
11/10/08
thinking that it shouldn't really be a government question
On this point, I think Arnold does not feel this way. We are not discussing the religious implications of marriage, but the effects of having a government sanctioned marriage. If Arnold or any politician feels that this should not be a govt question, then, what is it?
11/10/08
Basically, marriage doesn't have a govt defn outside of Party A and Party B. States who seek to ban gay marriage are generally doing so by enacting legislation that specifies Marriage as between a man and a woman. They are proactively changing the default (even if maybe that default isn't clear until the courts make it clear).
11/10/08
Here's the part I don't get: If the courts are declaring bans on gay marriage as unconstitutional, I think a lot of small govt people lean on the side of letting that stand instead of legislating something different.
How does a small govt. person (a theoretical person, not Arnold specifically) reconcile the Prop 8 yes result on the one hand with letting the courts decide it's unconstitutional to ban gay marriage and not legislating something new like defining away from the default, on the other?
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[jezebel.com]
Also, if you follow the links and read what some commenters here have written about their experiences, it's not as if it's a non-issue.
11/10/08
I'm not saying that its a non-issue, I'm just saying that its relevance in relation to the protests as a whole is being blown out of proportion. I'm not denying that there have been some racial instances, but they are absolutely few and far between.
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The people who are against gays because they "teach it to kids" and "choose to be freaks" are largely the same type who "have black friends" but dislike "ghetto" people. OK, call it what it is, you don't mind black people as long as they act white and keep quiet and gays have "chosen" to fight against a social system that is largely against them because they want attention, is that what you think? The choice is religion and how you interpret and practice it. YOUR CHOICE is the ignorant one, Mr. I give money to my church so they can influence elections tax free.
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you guys are right. i rescind my condescension and any ad hominem. I suppose it is always better to talk about things that to not talk about them.
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Don't care. I don't have to respect somebody who thinks God wants him to marry and impregnate underage girls, and I don't have to respect somebody who thinks an invisible, omnipotent man in the sky hates gays.
And enough with the "gays didn't do enough outreach" crap. In other words, the gay community didn't come begging for their rights not to be voted away. I don't think any group of people should have to conduct "outreach" to keep themselves from being disenfranchised.
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Did the gay community make any effort to reach out to the White, Black, Asian, Hispanic community? Did they make any effort to reach out to churches and educate people about this proposition?
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And damn it, excuse me but fuck this change the world through loving your enemy more shit. Queers have a RIGHT to be angry right now. There is no reason we should have to "show tolerance" for an INTOLERANT group of people (the Mormon group, by and large). And how are we not showing tolerance? By marching on their temples and trying to overturn their tax exempt status (though I believe no religious organization should have the privilege of tax-exempt status). We are not out there shouting slurs of any sort or making threats or defacing property. Those people are one in a thousand. So few are they, I have not come across ANY in ANY of the rallies. NONE. Not heard a peep.
So, unless people want to jump in and offer support to the movement - get on the ground and march and organize - maybe they could instead offer some responsible journalism and actually portray what is happening on the ground here in an accurate way, rather than focusing on a teenie tiny anomaly and making it seem as if Queers have lost their minds and are foaming at the mouth for the blood of Mormons and Blacks.
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IMO-it's not a matter of being bigoted or homophobic- but the (blatant--is that appropriate for a 70-30 magin?) lack of empathy that has shocked gay men and lesbians with this vote. You''d think somewhere along the lines, minorities (especially those who've faced a similar struggle for civil rights) would be, at the very least, sympathetic to struggle.
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and repreatedly throwing out the same statistics does not make your point any more poignant or cogent.
11/10/08
We're all on the same side. What I am concerned about is the way the vote fell regardless of whether or not it had an effect on the passing of prop 8. Clearly there's a disconnect there, whether it was badly run campaigns, not reaching out, or not being present enough, etc.
I do not think that the AA population that voted were bigoted or homophobic. I do think it is FAIR to question why the vote was so divided. Bear in mind that there was also an OPTION not to even vote on this proposition and to abstain.
11/10/08
Those who self identify as black make up 6% of the California population. Now obivously not everyone voted and not everyone who did vote is represented exit polls. That would make for maybe 2-3% of AA voters. 70% of 2-3% ain't a whole lot.
I find is amazing telling that many people hear are reaching to look at them as black voters first. Not religious voters.
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Not defending that logic, just offering some reasons behind it.
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Anyone who is pissed that black folks didn't just fall in line should (and I think, deep down, is) pissed that the LGBT community didn't do the coalition building that it needed to.
Although I really have to say, there's some lashing out at the black community, but like 99% of the anger and action is directed at Mormons.