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posts about #toryburch more →
"We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
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anteup
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
Slightly OT rant:
I'm tired of hearing people saying "six feet tall and rail thin" esque comments.

I was that girl. No one made clothes for me then. No one makes clothes for me now as an "average" 6' gal either. Brands don't cater to tall broads.
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clevernamehere
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
I think the issue is that clothing designers don't really see themselves as out to make money. They see themselves as artists. They have an idea of what they want their clothes to look like that is more important to them than increasing profits.

It makes sense that carrying more sizes would increase profit, but then I know Old Navy shunted their plus size stuff online. Was that a brand decision or was it honestly not selling? It doesn't really matter what size the average woman wears if the people buying clothing aren't distributed across sizes the same way.
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psychgirl1221
11/24/09

@clevernamehere: A common complaint among plus sized fashion designers and specialty boutiques is that plus sized women don't speak with their wallets. We complain about designers not offering clothes in our sizes, but when it comes down to it, plus women overwhelmingly tend to spend less money on clothes. However, that really doesn't explain why Old Navy moved their plus line to online only.

I wonder if part of the reason why plus sizes are disappearing is the popularity of online shopping. It doesn't make much sense to not try anything on if you are having fit problems. However, I can wear anything from an 18 in regular misses sizes to a 22w or 25 in juniors plus. There is no standardization. Sometimes it is more convenient to order online than to waste hours at the mall, hoping that a store has my size.
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clevernamehere
11/24/09

@psychgirl1221: I'm within the "normal" range of sizes and I like to do a lot of online shopping because I can try things on at home with pieces I already own. I only usually do it when I can get free shipping though.

I was really surprised when the plus sizes disappeared from the Old Navy in NYC because they seem to do crazy business in every section, but I tend to doubt they would get rid of a profitable division. Old Navy isn't Donna Karan- there is no image. I would guess that some women are uncomfortable with their size and don't like to shop, some do what I do, and because plus sized women tend to be older, they have more clothes to begin with.

Re: sizing. Sizing isn't standardized well, but what you're describing doesn't surprise me. Juniors is designed to be the smallest (and shortest) since it is meant for teens- an 8 in juniors is supposed to be smaller than an 8 in misses.
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BytheSea
11/24/09

@psychgirl1221: "Plus size women don't vote with their wallets" is the biggest whiny buck passing ever. We are voting with our wallets- we don't like any of the ugly overpriced shit you grudgingly halfassedly don't even TRY to sell us. Because it doesn't fit and it doesn't look good because a size 18 woman is not a size 2 twinkie just made bigger.

(Like, for example, why do they make size 20 daisy dukes? Why does Sears corporate buy as many of them as they do for size 2, and then when they don't sell, designers' take-away is that fat women don't buy clothes.)
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Edited by BytheSea at 11/24/09 10:54 PM BytheSea was starred BytheSea was unstarred

Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
Fuck you, Angela Missoni. This makes me want to squeeze into the smallest size you have and walk around yelling "I AM WEARING MISSONI AND I'M FAT!!! MISSONI LUVS FAT PEOPLE"
The only problem with this plan is that it would require me to actually buy your clothes.
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Vulcan Has No Moon
11/24/09

@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: Steal them.
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BetteD
11/25/09

@Vulcan Has No Moon: @Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: I love you both. I am laughing my ass off right now.
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ytuhermanotambien
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
Not that I think this is a legitimate excuse, or that it makes sense that almost ALL designers would do this, but I think part of the reason designers eschew designing larger (ie, for the average American) sizes is that even though they'd make more money in the short term, they feel like they'd lose their exclusivity, and then their identity as luxury brands would suffer. Of course, the reasons why non-model bodies aren't considered glamorous or ideal are a bigger problem that designers undoubtedly perpetuate with this logic.
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Edited by ytuhermanotambien at 11/24/09 4:09 PM ytuhermanotambien was starred

PetiteGal
11/24/09

@ytuhermanotambien: A lot of actresses and singers don't have model bodies either. They're skinny, but they're not 6 feet tall (I think actresses average around 5'4"-5'5" ish)
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clevernamehere
11/24/09

@PetiteGal: The clothing they sell in stores isn't model length. I've found US clothes is normed on a 5'5"-5'7" woman- slightly above average but often hemmable.
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PetiteGal
11/24/09

@clevernamehere: Since when did a 5'5" to 5'7" woman (especially a 5'5" woman) have a 34" inseam, unless she's wearing 4" heels?

#tips
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Jenloveshercurves
11/24/09

@PetiteGal: 5'8" here and I need at the very least a 34 inseam.
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clevernamehere
11/24/09

@PetiteGal: I'm sure some 5'5"-5'7" women have 34" inseams, but pants are often cut for heels. I'm 5'9" with a 34" inseam and I buy 34" for flats and 36" for heels.

Where you can really see the height of the fit model is in the length of tops. It isn't uncommon for tops to be too short for me. The UK is far worse than the US- I think they norm their clothes on an even shorter woman.

I get that being very short makes buying clothing difficult, but I think it must be 100x worse to buy clothing as a 6' tall woman. There isn't a way to make clothing longer with tailoring. The clothing that is for sale in the mall is meant for an average-ish height woman, not the women in the top 5% of the height chart.
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JerkoftheMonth
11/25/09

@clevernamehere: Yeah, but everyone has fit problems. It's not competition if petites or talls have it harder. I'm 'average' height and have a helluva time finding pants to fit because of my shapely ass and thighs. Seriously, I can only buy pants from 2 brands (Guess and Esprit, for ladies out there with pear shapes!!). That's out of, maybe, 100 brands I've tried over the years.

The point they are making about plus sizes, is that as hard as it is for 'normal' sized people, even tall or short ones, with between 0-12 size bodies, it seems that only specialised brands even make clothes that can be tried on by plus-size women. So people don't cater to your leg length, or my ass size, but I can make do. Imagine what it feels like to not even be able to put clothes in a store on because they only stock clothes 4 sizes smaller than you...
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rodmanstreet
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
Someone here once said (and if it was you, please identify yourself so I can heart you) that the issue of plus sized clothing was like the battle between greed and vanity, and vanity won out. Because if these designers were greedy, they'd look at the plus sized demographic and their eyes would go $$!!!
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Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.
11/24/09

@rodmanstreet: That was me, but I stole it from another commenter a very long time ago and tweaked it a bit. I think what a posted (and what I think every time I see posts on clothing and plus sizes) is that it is our love of the dollar and our love of thinness coming smack dab against each other. It amazes me that a love of thinness (or hatred of fatness) is what is strongest in the end because I thought nothing could trump American's love of the almighty dollar.
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rodmanstreet
11/24/09

@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: Gosh darn it, I already hearted you long ago. Well put, though.
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woodsey
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
I think one of the problems is that designers make clothes to fit on a size zero and then for retail the items are just reproduced by increasing the dimensions. But that doesn't take into account the fact that a size 8 body isn't shaped the way a 0 is and a size 14 is different from an 8, etc. It would be nice if clothes were actually designed in bigger sizes in the first place so that they fit properly. I for the life of me can't find a top that my boobs fit into because they aren't in proportion with a stick-model and I hate it.
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clevernamehere
11/24/09

@woodsey: I think most retail clothing is normed on a 6 or an 8. The problem is that everyone is built a little different. The only way to work around that is to have dozens more sizes (pear 8 and apple 8 or something) or get things taken in. Guys don't have this problem because they let things hang.
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JerkoftheMonth
11/25/09

@clevernamehere: I would LOVE an apple/pear/stringbean distinction for sizing! Pear 8, FTW!
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slightlyhardup
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
I do have to agree with Angela Missoni a little here. I worked in retail and as a buyer for year and often thought about what sizes certain pieces should be ordered for the store. At the time I was a size 14 and by no means did I shy away from sexier and revealing clothes. But I did use myself as a test market - as in would I wear this at my size. Would I buy a silk, bias cut, backless gown in a size 14? Probably not as it may not be flattering nor would a size 14 woman necessarily want a dress that wouldn't allow bra wearing. But there were also dresses I wouldn't order in smaller sizes as they could overwhelm a person who was a size two. I wanted the women who shopped in my store to look good and be a walking ad. Yes, it means that I was deciding what I thought people should and shouldn't wear, but isn't that what retail/fashion is really all about?

But I think I strayed from my original point here, which is that I understand that Missoni wants women to leave the store looking as good as possible, not wearing something that is ill-fitting and not flattering.

Sorry for the long-winded rant!
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dj_chick
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
I don't know who Eileen Fisher is, and from this article, I think I'm ok with that.
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colormeroutine
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
I don't get what's wrong with the Missoni quote. The rest of them yes, but not that one. I cannot count the number of times I have been pushed into buying something by salespeople just trying to make a sale only to wind up donating it unworn because it in fact looks like crap. I'd rather you tell me it looks like crap so I don't waste my money on it and point me towards something else than that.
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Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.
11/24/09

@colormeroutine: The problem is that she specifically uses women "squeezed into an outfit" as an example of someone wearing ill fitting clothes. If she had left it at, "I don't want women to wear ill-fitting clothes," there would be no problem with the quote. However, because she chooses to focus on larger women trying to fit into a smaller size (as opposed to the myriad of short, tall or thin women that wear garments that don't fit) she is singling out fat women and revealing the true intention of her message which is, "I don't want fat people to wear my outfits."
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noisy doll
11/24/09

@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: It's not just fat women who squeeze themselves into the wrong clothes. My former roommate was a size 6 but had all of her fat concentrated around the belly and top of the hips, and didn't pay any attention to fit. She would constantly buy clothes that were not right for her, so they were either falling off or cutting into her. I also see "skinny girls" all the time with muffin tops in their mall-shuffling jeans.
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Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.
11/25/09

@noisy doll: Look at the wording in your comment, "all of her fat was concentrated around the belly" and "muffin-tops in their mall-shuffling jeans." While both of these phrases may not be specific to fat women, they are about fat. It's not just that she doesn't want fat people in her outfits, she doesn't want the people who wear her clothes to have fat.
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noisy doll
11/25/09

@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: That's probably the best way to put it, yeah. I think it's kind of ridiculous that it's not even enough to simply be small in measurements, but you also can't be squishy in any way to look good in so many designers' clothes. Particularly jeans. I mostly can't stand jeans, even though I wear them as often as anyone else. grr.
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JennaW
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
Even when you can fit into stuff, though, most things in the malls and shops are aimed at such a narrow, narrow group of girls.

Every time there's a miserable retailer "didn't hit our target" report, I just want to slap them all and shout, "I had money and NO WHERE TO SPEND IT, you MORONS!"

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to wear clothes meant for a 17-year-old sylph. It is neither age- nor lifestyle-appropriate for me, and the only other options are active wear and suits -- what about just regular clothes that don't show my boobs to my coworkers?

Gap used to be pretty good for me, but they've decided providing awesome, wearable jeans for people who don't look good OR don't want to go around in denim leggings is not the direction they want to go in.
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bluebears
11/24/09

@JennaW: thank.you. Which is why I'm nervous about the aforementioned Ann Taylor makeover. anyone know any more details about this?
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awinoforever
11/24/09

@JennaW: the gap completely re-made and re-vamped their denim line this fall. it is incredible. i hated their jeans for years but tried them out because i was bored while my husband was looking for good khakis. they actually have a variety of styles to correspond with a variety of body types and the denim is very high quality. this is coming from a jean snob who usually only wears j brand, paper denim and paige premium.
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JennaW
11/24/09

@awinoforever: Well, *I* liked them before. But from what they're showing on their website, they seem to have eliminated the styles I liked best without a good correlative replacement.

However, I'll go have an actual try-on to be fair, since you say they're awesome now (still? And because they were my go-to, and I hate having start over for basics and classic stuff).

Thanks!
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ElleL
11/24/09

@bluebears: Not a big change really, they look just like Jcrew now.
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awinoforever
11/24/09

@JennaW: i thought you meant you liked them before the second to last revamp? they've redone the line so much in the last ten years i guess it's hard to keep track!

but i would def give it a shot. i personally loved the "long and lean" cuts, "curvy" fit was nice as well. beware of the skinny though! i'll let youfigure out who that's clearly supposed to be for.
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kerry
11/24/09

@awinoforever: Yes! I had totally sworn off Gap jeans for years, because their shit was a nightmare on my body. This fall I discovered that all my usual favorites changed their denim fits to be all wrong on me (screw you, Ann Taylor Loft!) but the Gap went the other way and made jeans that fit me perfectly. I tried on about 6 styles and they all fit correctly where they should. I wish the denim itself was higher quality, but I can't complain about the cuts and styles.
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Jenloveshercurves
11/24/09

@kerry: I think that Gap went to the same cuts that Banana uses, which makes me happy because for years Banana has been the only company I buy jeans at. I always found it odd that Gap's jeans were awful on me but Banana was great and they were owned by the same company. It was weird.
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Dictator for Life
11/24/09

@awinoforever: I've worn Diesel for years and they fit well, but I bought a couple of pairs of J Brand when Bloomingdales had a denim sale. They fit so strangely! They are super-tight on my thighs, but loose on my butt. My butt is kind of large-ish, and I am far from used to pulling up my pants. It feels like I'm wearing a diaper. Is this just the way they fit? Because I am not a fan.
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Penny
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
Honestly, and I am saying this from experience, a lot of people who enter into the fashion industry are self-loathing. Probably has a lot to do with it in the end. They just convince themselves that it's a financial decision or that their market will not support it.
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bellzar08
11/24/09

@Penny: From what experience? I'm curious. :)
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Penny
11/24/09

@bellzar08: Just talking about a lot of people I've met in my years. Only half serious, really. Maybe 60/40.
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bellzar08
11/25/09

@Penny: Oh, so you don't work in fashion?

#tips
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kittens
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
i have all this disposable income, fashion designers, and there are only so many dresses i can buy from torrid. why is this even an issue? i'm fat, i like clothes, i have money to spend on clothes. you'd think it'd be a mutually beneficial arrangement.

also is beth ditto the only fat person these designers have met? jeez
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BestEuphemismEver
11/24/09

@kittens: I think Beth Ditto is like an unicorn to them - sparkly but not entirely real.
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MegiEr
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
"I'd love to dress Beth Ditto" is the new "I have a good friend who is gay/black"
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sportz.star
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
I think that's being overly harsh of Tory and not nearly harsh enough on Stella. Tory likes seeing women feel good in her clothes (presumably why they wear them) and has a added a size rare in higher end clothing to her line. Kudos (if insufficient). Stella has been told by women that they can't wear her clothes and she has done precisely nada.
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Cairn
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
That said, there's a bit of a plus-sized-ghetto in women's fashion. Everyone knows Lane Bryant as a plus-sized store, not a trendy fashion-forward store. I think Fisher may have been trying to rein that back to not get stuck as a brand. I know several people who are in Lane Bryant's demographic, but who refuse to shop there because of the negative connotations of the brand, and how wearing Lane Bryant would make them feel.
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awinoforever
11/24/09

@Cairn: oh hey have you met my mom or something? she's been a 12-16 for years and refuses to go to lane bryant or in any plus sized sections of the stores. yes, i realize she's on the small side of plus size, but she's also very short, so i keep trying to explain to her that if she'd venture into plus size lines that have petites she might have better luck with fit. all i get back is "but i'm not plus sized yet!! i am not going to be the fat girl at lane bryant!!"

hmmm where did i get my body issues again? (p.s. i love my mom dearly, this is her fatal flaw, and i have long ago accepted it in her)
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clevernamehere
11/24/09

@awinoforever: If your mom wears a 12-16 in non-plus size clothing, the things in Lane Bryant would likely be to big for her. They cut very big in my limited experience.
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BytheSea
11/24/09

@clevernamehere: I'm 16/18 and I buy LB medium sized pants. The 14/16 tops might fit her.
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