There have been plenty of conservative presidents who have been against torture. McCain was at one point, particularly while he was being tortured, I'm sure. Torture is not a conservative value. I don't understand why people are so in favor of it. "Everything Obama isn't" is not a viable political platform. Nor does it make sense.
I'm so tired of conservatives ragging on Obama for being anti-torture. They make it seem like it's because he's soft, but it's actually because torture doesn't work. I'm not too proud to admit that I would crumble after my first fingernail was yanked. I'd start blathering on about JFK, copping to everything from his assassination to breaking up the Gosselin's marriage.
@CoalMineCanary: One of my cousins sent out an e-mail once about how he knows 24 speaks truth and torture works. Once I got done screaming about the stupidity, I asked what someone could do to him that would make him say that there is no God and mean it (he's particularly religious). He said "nothing," but I'm not convinced that he made the connection to what I was talking about. It's like there's this weird disconnect: "since the terrorists don't believe the same thing I believe, they can't possibly believe in it as strongly as I do, even though they are willing to kill/die for it."
That ticking time bomb crap always gives me that amused/pissed off feeling.
If I was a terrorist and there was an attack I planned that was going to happen in say an hour - I could probably get through an hour of torture. Why would I give up the info if my plan was that close to fruition?
Just one of the many ways in which torture makes no sense - in addition to this: [www.cbsnews.com]
Oh sure, I finally start to feel good about today and you spring THAT little nightmare on me. How am I supposed to sleep with the thought of Palin/Cheney '12 looming in my future?
@jenniferhill: I was momentarily worried too, but then I remember Republicans don't trust women to lead anyway, so we needn't worry about that little nightmare scenario.
Next time one of these idiots brings up the "ticking time bomb" scenario, I need someone to get up and ask them to describe a specific situation where this would even be a choice to make.
Basically you'd need a situation where you know, with 100% certainty, that an attack is about to happen (and when) and you also know, with 100% certainty, who knows the details of the attack. Oh, and that torturing them will get you the information (which is a ridiculous assumption in and of itself).
This doesn't happen in real life. And these people know it. But they also know the people they're addressing have watched too many movies and don't recognize the impossibility and stupidity of the hypothetical.
"[Liz Cheney] strolled in without entourage to a Sheraton ballroom, unrecognized at first, past a cluster of women getting their pictures taken with Joe the Plumber."
God, Cheney's a draft dodger who got something like seven deferments from Viet Nam and now his daughter is the expert on...Jack Bauer? There are no ticking time bombs. That never happens. Period. Even the most meticulous plot that we've uncovered is at the mercy of things like traffic, weather, and bad luck. Ticking time bombs do not happen, because those aren't the kind of bombs 'they' use. Why bother? Bush did a really good job of turning the US public into terrified....I don't even know what you'd call that eight-year binge.
The 9/11 operation took ten years or more to get off the ground, plus incredible piles of cash and the jettisoning of a lot of future possibilities. Anything but hijacking by a crew member is really impossible, at least in America. They're going to move onto different methods and they're going to want to up the body count. That's if we don't face attacks by our own home-grown terrorists, which frankly scares me more.
Not only does torture not work, it's inhumane as well. The common decency argument never works with people like the Cheneys, though, because they don't understand that concept. They don't even care about practicality: torture a terrorist and you've hardened his resolve. Torture an innocent person, and you might have created a terrorist---either him or his relatives.
It's absolutely horrifying how they use their ridiculous scenarios to justify these dishonorable practices.
@Ginmar Rienne: I would just like to add to your incredibly articulate post that the vast majority of military people themselves do not support "enhanced interrogation techniques", ahem, torture. Mr. Rowing, former Navy guy and DoD employee, tells me this all of the time. The only people who support torture are the political hawks who never actually served in the military (I'm looking right at you, Cheney and Rumsfeld). Why? Because no soldier wants to be on the receiving end of torture and as soon as your government sanctions such practices, your men and women in uniform are vulnerable to the heinous practice.
We should be asking Liz fucking Cheney over and over again why she supports torturing American troops, because this is exactly what she is doing by being a cheerleader for waterboarding.
@rowingrowingrowing: I don't know about that. Aside from running contrary to the opinions of many soldiers I've met, your husband's analysis conflicts with this:
@BearDownCBears: Right, and there are many reasons not to torture, but preventing American troops from torture isn't really one of them since the people Americans could be captured by (Al Qaeda I suppose in this situation) have ALWAYS tortured and have had no qualms with doing so. Does it piss of terrorists that we torture? Yeah, sure I guess. I think it riles up moderates more though; any group affiliated with terrorism that is actually planning on kidnapping Americans is probably already planning their glorified beheading a la Daniel Pearl and I don't really think news of waterboarding is what pushes them over the edge. I agree this would make sense if you are assuming that your enemy is playing by the conventional rules of warfare. But terrorist groups specifically do not do that.
@rowingrowingrowing: You know, as an interrogator, I know that for the guys I served with, torture was just plain wrong. Getting right down to it, it's the sign of a sadistic asshole who wants to torture or who is just a shitty interrogator. Interrogation is a humbling game of wits in which the whole point is getting information, and if you can't, you just get another interrogator in there to try something else. Most importantly, it's not personal. You have to outwit the guy, appeal to him, and you know what? It works.
Besides which? In the MIddle East, getting them to talk isn't the problem, I've found; it's getting them to shut up that's really the tough job. What are these other guys doing?
I thought originally that Iraqis were going to be sexist, and wouldn't talk to a woman. Boy, was I wrong. That worked in my favor. Let them think I'm stupid: let me play the daughter card. Whatever. Worked like a charm most of the time.
"Smart Girl" summit - Clever! I particularly like how they used the word "Girl" & a pink website to tone down the humorless feminazi implications of "Smart".
@YourScreenplaySucks: I'm pretty weirded out by the website, and the name. It really looks at first glance like it's for 12-year-olds -- like some tween/teen event sponsored by the Girl Scouts.
Dear Cheney family:
At this point in DIck's tenure, we were down 3,000 Americans and 2 WTC buildings. You'll notice no such events have occurred during the Obama administration and there are even more people who hate us, thanks to Dick. So...shut the fuck up.
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
If I was a terrorist and there was an attack I planned that was going to happen in say an hour - I could probably get through an hour of torture. Why would I give up the info if my plan was that close to fruition?
Just one of the many ways in which torture makes no sense - in addition to this:
[www.cbsnews.com]
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
Basically you'd need a situation where you know, with 100% certainty, that an attack is about to happen (and when) and you also know, with 100% certainty, who knows the details of the attack. Oh, and that torturing them will get you the information (which is a ridiculous assumption in and of itself).
This doesn't happen in real life. And these people know it. But they also know the people they're addressing have watched too many movies and don't recognize the impossibility and stupidity of the hypothetical.
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
I am so smart. S-M-R-T.
09/28/09
09/28/09
The 9/11 operation took ten years or more to get off the ground, plus incredible piles of cash and the jettisoning of a lot of future possibilities. Anything but hijacking by a crew member is really impossible, at least in America. They're going to move onto different methods and they're going to want to up the body count. That's if we don't face attacks by our own home-grown terrorists, which frankly scares me more.
Not only does torture not work, it's inhumane as well. The common decency argument never works with people like the Cheneys, though, because they don't understand that concept. They don't even care about practicality: torture a terrorist and you've hardened his resolve. Torture an innocent person, and you might have created a terrorist---either him or his relatives.
It's absolutely horrifying how they use their ridiculous scenarios to justify these dishonorable practices.
09/28/09
We should be asking Liz fucking Cheney over and over again why she supports torturing American troops, because this is exactly what she is doing by being a cheerleader for waterboarding.
09/28/09
[news.bbc.co.uk]
And this was just a fun fact to throw in for laffs:
[www.cnn.com]
09/28/09
09/28/09
Besides which? In the MIddle East, getting them to talk isn't the problem, I've found; it's getting them to shut up that's really the tough job. What are these other guys doing?
I thought originally that Iraqis were going to be sexist, and wouldn't talk to a woman. Boy, was I wrong. That worked in my favor. Let them think I'm stupid: let me play the daughter card. Whatever. Worked like a charm most of the time.
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
At this point in DIck's tenure, we were down 3,000 Americans and 2 WTC buildings. You'll notice no such events have occurred during the Obama administration and there are even more people who hate us, thanks to Dick. So...shut the fuck up.
Signed,
ides
09/28/09
:picks up eyeballs off floor after rolling too hard:
09/28/09