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New York, 9:31 PM
Thu Nov 12
73 posts in the last 24 hours
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04/21/09
No I'm not anti-semitic in any way, shape or form. But I've always wondered.
04/22/09
"The Holocaust is one of the darkest chapters of history but it happened in Europe. It was a crime done by Europeans to Europeans. Many of the survivors moved to the US but it was after the fact. I know there is finally a Holocaust Museum in Germany but wouldn't this museum be better situated in Poland, France, Holland, etc."
I agree with you on somewhat, at least in that it is shameful how difficult it is for us to face our own dark chapters in history, but you may want to look up the St. Louis, amongst other things. The Holocaust was like all other genocides--we knew it was happening. Americans first knowledge of what was happening was not when we liberated the camps. America cannot wash its hands as easily as it would like.
Many relatively weak Europeans did much to help their fellow Europeans. Many powerful American leaders contemplated how best to protect America's interest, which did not always include Europeans.
Beyond that, the Holocaust museum is not there to punish the perpetrators, or remind people's grandchildren that they may have failed. It is to honor the lives of people lost and to educate to prevent the deaths of more. In that regard it is just as important in the U.S. as in any other country.
And I know for a fact that Holland and Poland, and I assume that France, have their own museums and memorials to the Holocaust.
04/22/09
But you didn't really answer my question. The Holocaust happened IN EUROPE. Not in the United States. There is limited space for museums in Washington. Why this museum and not one for the physical and cultural genocide inflicted on Native Americans and African-Americans in the United States for centuries? Why no museum dedicated to the Cambodian genocide or Rwanda or Dafur. These atrocities all took place while the world watched and did nothig.
I guess what I'm really asking is; Is the World War II Holocaust considered more important because the victims were mostly white?
04/22/09
04/22/09
Also... there is a HUGE museum in Washington dedicated to Indigenous cultures in the Americas. And I appreciate the fact that it is not purely focused on the way our people were decimated via colonization/genocide. I say that because it's hard for me that the common belief now about Native peeps is that Indians were killed on such a scale that we don't exist anymore and thus we are HISTORY. And the belief that we're history means that those of us who are here today (Millions!)are rendered somewhat invisible.
04/22/09
04/22/09
Obviously, the Holocaust wasn't the first genocide. (Now there's an understatement...) But it was so wide-reaching and long-lasting that whole new words had to be invented to describe it. Plus, it was excruciatingly well-documented: When it comes to the nuts and bolts - numbers, logistics, etc. - we have information that goes beyond what's available for, say, Cambodia. And yet, that information can illuminate genocides in Cambodia, Rwanda, Armenia, the Americas - because the sad, awful truth is that hatred of the "other" has been going on since humans invented the concepts of "us" and "them". All that's changed is the technology.
But that technology can also help us see what thousands-year-old grudges can do if we let them dictate our actions. Something like the HMM has the power to make people stop and think about genocide in the present day. And maybe if enough people stop and think, we can finally do something to stop it. It seems like a pipe dream, but you gotta start somewhere.
04/22/09
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04/21/09
And i'm crying.
04/21/09
There are 13 million jews alive today.
04/21/09
@pickles.and.olives, formerly ShayMerlin: It's a lovely thought, but no. We've always been a locus for hate. I don't really know why, but historically.. well, we're small. Maybe that's it.
04/21/09
Most of my mother's family left Europe before the war, but not all. After the war started, some managed to leave and made their way to Australia, but some didn't and no one knew for sure what happened to them, but knowing that the towns they lived in were basically emptied, it's pretty clear.
I think I actually have a harder time thinking about the ones who did get out - like...do I have random long-distance relatives in Australia? Or who knows where else they might have gone to later? I asked my grandmother once about tracking them down but she said they went through so many countries on the way and used assumed names...it would be nigh impossible. Just so hard to grasp, mentally.
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04/21/09
I've been to Auschwitz-Birkenau and to the Holocaust museum in Berlin, but not yet to the one in DC .... I kind of think its redundant at the point. I don't know.
The Ghetto Uprising Memorial in Warsaw is chilling. You look around the area that was the former ghetto, and realize none of the trees are more than 60 years old.
I don't believe in ghosts or anything, but some places are just so full of suffering that it still lingers.
04/21/09
And sorry, "reply" function=broken"
04/21/09
I should've shared that earlier.
It's good work that you do.
04/21/09
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04/21/09
I was at the Holocaust Museum a few weeks ago, and in this section (which should be pretty quiet...) there was a big group of teenagers screaming at each other about inane bullshit (who hit who, where they were going afterwards, etc) The other members of the group wwere LAYING DOWN in the center area on this bench-like area, meant for people to sit and reflect. It was so fucking disrespectful, I was 2 seconds away from going apeshit on them.
04/21/09
04/21/09
I'm rambling. Places of reverence do strange things to all of us.
04/21/09
I sort of feel like there should be an age limit in some ways. The 12 year olds that were at the museum that day had NO grasp of what the Holocaust was, or why they were there. I felt like I learned about the horror in steps, and maybe by the time I was 16, I was able to fully grasp what happened.
Overall, I couldn't decide what disgusted me more though... the people who act like diamonds4guns mentioned and crowd around the particularly gory sections like they were entertainment, or the parents who lifted their 8 year old child to watch the video about Dr. Mengele's experiments.
04/21/09
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04/21/09
This is an article that is well worth reading today, all about the discoveries of new "Killing Fields" during WWII: [www.nytimes.com]
04/21/09
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04/21/09
I always find myself chuckling whenever I heard people on the Metro who are "psyched" about going to the HMM. It's a fantastic museum, don't get me wrong, but it's among the most harrowing and difficult museums I've ever visited. I've only been once. I don't know if I have the fortitude to deal with Yad Vashem. We'll see what happens on Birthright...