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BytheSea
11/25/09

In reply to Hot Shots: Basketball Team Photos Raise Questions Of Homophobia
A lot of male athletes are portrayed in this 'glam' light. I think the article is mixing issues. If you want women's sports to exist at the level of men's, then a glam photo shoot in understated dresses with a limo is certainly indicative of a sport that the school is investing money in. BTW, that shot up there, in a bronze dress with braided hair and tatoos showing, is 'power glam,' very appropriate for female athletes. It's Angelina Jolie c. 1996, not Cinderella.

The 'no lesbians' thing is another issue entirely. (Coz the girl in the pic? Could pass for a hot butch, imo.) It's SOP in sports that athletes be a clean, all-American bunch. There's no gay people in baseball!
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Apollonia
11/24/09

In reply to Hot Shots: Basketball Team Photos Raise Questions Of Homophobia
This site is for recruiting. It looks like the team is trying to present the idea that they're all friends, support each other and have a great time while doing it. Even the coach confirms this for me by saying "We wanted to have a product that would stand out to the people we are trying to reach." Who is the coach concerned with reaching out to through a web site? Future players, first and foremost, and keeping up morale among current and past players. Reaching fans is the SID's job and considering this site is NOT on the school's official athletics site, I'm guessing the SID doesn't run it.

That's what I got from my investigating. I got zero vibes of "let's look straight!" or "let's look hot and attract male fans!" This is entirely my opinion, but I think this is being made into something that it's not, and that's frustrating and annoying as someone who's a diehard sports fan and sometimes (not very good) athlete.

Also, it took a lot for me to defend anything having to do with the Seminoles, so this is an opinion I definitely stand behind.
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DexterHaven
11/24/09

@Apollonia: The problem is that these things don't exist in a vacuum: it's about enforcing strict societal and cultural rules regarding femininity and the acceptable forms it can take. As the article above notes: what has beauty got to do with it? and what happens to those women who are kick-ass sportswomen but physically unattractive? At the very least they could try challenging ideas regarding acceptable femininity, rather than reinforcing them.
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Apollonia
11/24/09

@DexterHaven: I think they just wanted to convey the image of wanting to get dressed up and laughing together. I don't think it should be necessary for them to have to stop and think "are we reinforcing acceptable ideas of femininity instead of combatting unfair stereotypes of what women should embody?" And besides, some women find strength and empowerment in dressing up glam and taking photos. There's nothing wrong with that at all, as long as it's their choice.

And who's the judge of physically unattractive? I personally think if someone's a kick ass sportswoman, that alone makes them attractive, glam clothing and makeup or not.
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DexterHaven
11/25/09

@Apollonia: Good for you, but sadly you are very very far from being representative. It's called the patriarchal double bind: look into it. As I said, we would love to think gender images exist in a vacuum: they don't.
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Apollonia
11/25/09

@DexterHaven: There's no need to be snarky.
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DexterHaven
11/25/09

@Apollonia: Sorry, I didn't mean to be snarky. I just find this argument quite frustrating.
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fulanita
11/24/09

In reply to Hot Shots: Basketball Team Photos Raise Questions Of Homophobia
They are trying to sell tickets, promote the program. The men's team isn't hurting for spectators, but that isn't the case for the women (see also: NBA/WNBA). There is a regular "official" site that is just like the men's site. This one you have on here is really just a marketing ploy.

And do male athletes get used in the same way? David Beckham...Rafa Nadal...Federer...Cristiano Ronaldo...Tom Brady...Mark Sanchez. You've never seen their appearances used to appeal to female spectators/fans?

Even at FSU, they're not exactly hiding Christian Ponder.
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DexterHaven
11/24/09

@fulanita: Yeah, but in mens' sports physical attractiveness is allowed to be one part of an overall package without compromising their status, and even relatively unattractive males can be rendered hot by their sporting prowess. The rules are different for women.
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fulanita
11/24/09

@DexterHaven: No one's status in any sport is compromised by being attractive. If anything, as is the case here, said attractiveness will be used to sell tickets. In the case of this website, they aren't denigrating these women's athletic abilities, they are just using physical attractiveness to promote their program.

There's no question it helps. David Beckham is not now and never has been the best soccer player out there, but his presence is a boon for any team he plays on. There are kids in Korea wearing LA Galaxy shirts, not because of his ability but rather because of his image. Anna Kournikova made millions for herself and every tournament she played in for the same reason. How is Beckham's exploiting of his image any different than hers?
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DexterHaven
11/25/09

@fulanita: Even David Beckham doesn't pose for AC Milan photos in a tux or topless. Even he retains the look of professionalism when it is connected with this playing image. Glamour for men and for women has incredibly different connotations: you might not like that, but it's true.
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whynotshesaid
11/24/09

In reply to Hot Shots: Basketball Team Photos Raise Questions Of Homophobia
I'm not surprised by these images. I don't call them indicators of homophobia as much as I see them as attempts at reinforcing strict gender identity rules. It's sort of like this unspoken quid pro quo - the woman gets to play sports and do "boy things" as long as she is willing to work extra hard at "being a girl" in all other ways. Homophobia is certainly a part of it, but it is just a small part of a much bigger issue, in which the gender identities of women who venture into traditionally male-dominated territory are subject to an extra-heavy dose of policing.

It's an ongoing issue in the field of women's athletics, and one I could talk about for hours and hours. Title IX may have paved the way for women to take to the fields and the courts, but the rest of our society has a fuck load of catching up to do.
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Edited by whynotshesaid at 11/24/09 2:29 PM whynotshesaid was starred whynotshesaid was unstarred

sarahmick.86 summer
11/24/09

@whynotshesaid: I agree, I don't think it's specifically hetero vs. homosexual, I think it's overemphasizing the feminine in order to make it "okay". I definitely know how hard it is to get support for women's sports. People blatantly dislike women's basketball because it 'ruins the game' or some sort of bull like that. They don't deny it, they're proud of it. So while I understand the school wanting to attract views and sell tickets, this is hardly the way to do it.
This is definitely not the first time it's been done tho, it happens all the time. on the rare occasion that a woman graces the pages of sports illustrated, it's much more likely that you'll see her off the court/field/water/etc, and instead sitting naked outside of the arena with strategically placed equipmen. While showing female athletes in outside their sport is fine, it shouldn't be the only way they are appearing in a SPORTS magazine. and most of the time, it is.
But among college athletes at least, i've seen that when there is a reputation or rumor or homosexuality, a lot of the women feel they must combat it with a strong showing of heteronormative behavior. a few of my teammates actually gained reputations in the other direction (called sluts) because of the way they reacted to the pressures to be 'feminine' or hetero.
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whynotshesaid
11/24/09

@sarahmick.86 summer: Exactly. I agree with everything you said. and also, I am sorry to hear that happened with your teammates. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, huh?

As much as we as a society talk a good game about women and girls who play sports, the fact is people still find it transgressive. Hence all the pressure for female athletes to be pretty and ladylike and polite and wear dresses and pose in string bikinis. They can be competitive but not too competitive, aggressive but not that aggressive. Otherwise they are being unfeminine, and we can't have that, not at all.
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Flackette Goes Retro
11/24/09

In reply to Hot Shots: Basketball Team Photos Raise Questions Of Homophobia
I don't see this as homophobic, just hard-core marketing - and that is my problem with Division 1 college athletics; student athletes are marketed as a "product." I find this example particularly nefarious, though, because male student athletes tend to be marketed as fierce competitors, whereas FSU seems to have just thrown in the towel and decided to market their women's team as "pretty" rather than "awesome basketball players." If individual players like getting dolled up on their own time, that's awesome - but I object to the school forcing them into an image that has nothing to do with their athletic ability. Women's athletics already struggle for parity with men's programs (even with title IX, even at major schools, women's teams consistently get the second-best facilities, equipment and budgets). This isn't really helping their cause.
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Edited by Flackette Goes Retro at 11/24/09 2:13 PM

Flackette Goes Retro
11/24/09

@Flackette Goes Retro: Okay, I take some of that back just because of this awesome formal gown + chuck taylors look
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Edited by Flackette Goes Retro at 11/24/09 2:19 PM

History Major
11/24/09

In reply to Hot Shots: Basketball Team Photos Raise Questions Of Homophobia
Hmm someone has brought this link to my attention:

[www.seminoles.com]

Apparently the women have an athletic centered page as well?
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J.D.Regent
11/24/09

In reply to Hot Shots: Basketball Team Photos Raise Questions Of Homophobia
I also think that male athletes are positioned as sex gods, so in the context of pro sports sexualizing female athletes -- whether it's for a straight or queer audience -- is actually a more complex move than we might assume.
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Raised-byHeathens
11/24/09

In reply to Hot Shots: Basketball Team Photos Raise Questions Of Homophobia
This might be an unpopular stance, but here goes. In the long long ago, male sports had a chance to cultivate fans of the sport, out of which 'superstars' rose organically from the fan-dom. The entire idea of women annexing part of that sport away from the men is an uncomfortable idea for most-- even if they don't want to admit it--because of long held internalized gender roles. By prettying up these women, by using the celebrity machine of popular culture to artificially create superstars within a less popular subset of sport, the coaches are attempting to legitimize women's sport. If athletics media can point to a female Kobe, then women must be taken at least somewhat seriously within the realm of said sport. I think the glamorization of these players is an attempt to hustle up fans and sanction women's role in athletics. we live in a world where Kate Gosselin gets almost as many tabloid covers as Angelina Jolie-- a world where celebrity can be *created* like in a lab.And the recipes for creating these stars are pretty set in stone. I'm not happy that this is the case, but I feel these photos are more an effort to showcase stars in the sport than to shove girls into the closet.
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Flackette Goes Retro
11/24/09

@Raised-byHeathens: I completely agree. I don't see it as homophobic (lesbians wear dresses too!) but just a marketing move. Now, it's not a marketing move I particularly agree with, but I think it's pretty clear that's what it is.
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andyburn
11/24/09

In reply to Hot Shots: Basketball Team Photos Raise Questions Of Homophobia
Alright, so I never made it to the collegiate level but I was a really good high school player and my basketball team won the state championship my senior year. When we took our team photos we alternately gave ourselves crazy hairdos and painted our faces (we thought it was funny) or wore the baddest, meanest scowls possible as an attempt to inspire fear in our opponents. This shiz would have absolutely pissed me off. Playing competitive sports taught me to have confidence in my body as a tool and helped me be a strong, assertive individual. I don't think girls and women should have to think about looking good while kickin' ass.
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greeneyedfem
11/24/09

@andyburn: I wish I could promote this comment.

I would only add: "looking good" and "kicking ass" shouldn't be mutually exclusive categories -- I think I look damn good in my high school basketball photos.
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andyburn
11/24/09

@greeneyedfem: You're right. I look like a total badass in all my b-ball pictures.
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ronniedobbs
11/24/09

In reply to Hot Shots: Basketball Team Photos Raise Questions Of Homophobia
I don't think it's useful to compare the men and women's sites to each other, because it positions the men's team as the Serious Standard Bearer. It also distracts us from talking about the role the women themselves are playing in crafting the team's image. No one has mentioned that each of those girls has a basketball in their hands in at least one of their glam photos. I think that's pretty cool, and says something about how they're defining "beauty."

Also:

"We feel it is important to set ourselves apart as much as we can... We wanted to have a product that would stand out to the people we are trying to reach."

Why are we assuming the "people we are trying to reach" only includes (male) ticket-buyers, when it could also include the kinds of athletes they are trying to recruit? I think that's way more interesting than reducing this to a "they're courting the Male Gaze" discussion.
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J.D.Regent
11/24/09

@ronniedobbs: it positions the men's team as the Serious Standard Bearer.

I LOVE your framing of this issue.
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katie.scarlett.o'hara
11/24/09

In reply to Hot Shots: Basketball Team Photos Raise Questions Of Homophobia
Isn't women's basketball kind of notoriously unpopular in ticket sales and stuff? I think they are doing this purely to garner attention and brand the team apart from the general image of the sport. It might be unfortunate, but I think creating a distinct image for the women's team apart from the men's is sort of necessary to generate buzz around the team.

My home city poured tons of money into the creation of a "sister" WNBA team that played in the same arena as our men's team, and it shut down after only two seasons because no one went to the games.
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shoroko
11/24/09

In reply to Hot Shots: Basketball Team Photos Raise Questions Of Homophobia
While I can see the homophobia argument, I think if you're going to get into potential issues with those kinds of images, the unnecessary sexualization simply because they're women athletes would be the more apparent issue, at least. The idea that feminine =/= lesbian also makes me uncomfortable.

But I can also see the argument that male athletes are often sexualized in such shots, too; I'd at most argue that male athletes are still typically depicted within the activities of their sport, rather than as movie stars of the like.
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egg cream
11/24/09

@shoroko: I feel the same way. These debates always annoy me -- why are we assuming that "feminine" = "not lesbian"? Why is the first conclusion we jump to not "female athletes are being presented in a way male athletes are not because women are expected to be sexually attractive and available at all times" but "female athletes are being prettied up so nobody thinks they're lesbians, because lesbians are always butch and ugly"?

Not only does it implicitly reinforce the ideas that (a) lesbians are all butch and (b) if you are queer, you are not a "real" man or woman, but it ignores what I think is the more important issue -- which is, as I mentioned above, that women are expected to be sexually attractive and available (it doesn't matter to whom) at all times. This is why we have the beauty industry, this is why we have rape culture, this is why we have so many problems, and it affects all women, across all sexualities. (And, in fact, is even at the root of the idea that if you're queer, you're not a "real" woman or man.) Why aren't we talking about that?
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amy_b
11/24/09

In reply to Hot Shots: Basketball Team Photos Raise Questions Of Homophobia
You know what's offensive? Public universities spending a crapload of money on athletics while academic programs suffer.
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morninggloria
11/24/09

@amy_b: To be fair, athletics bring in a crapload of money, too.

[www.forbes.com]
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Lymed
11/24/09

@amy_b: I was analyzing a public university budget once and the athletic program paid for itself. It wasn't even part of the general budget. All athletic revenue went immediately into a special fund.
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HannahBethD
11/24/09

@Lymed: At my alma mater, the athletics department funded itself. They got a set amount from the state, but all the rest came from the usual college sport money pits (ticket sales, merchandising, televised games, etc.)
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FroderickFronkensteen
11/24/09

In reply to Hot Shots: Basketball Team Photos Raise Questions Of Homophobia
I understand your argument, Katy, and I agree that there is an uneven emphasis on female athletes to appear beautiful, it seems, despite their careers AS athletes. I also agree that homophobia is a prevalent force within a highly masculinized sports culture, especially when discussing women who are already suspect by participating in a typically male profession. However, I don't think that a photoshoot which depicts the women as glamorous is necessarily inherently homophobic; that argument smacks of the assumption that women in sports have abandoned any desire to appear "attractive to men" simply because they are athletes. Male athletes are very often photographed in nice suits, sporting expensive watches, and getting out of expensive cars; female athletes should be able to enjoy the same glamorization without the assumption that it is an effort to hide any hints of homosexuality. There is an argument to be made about the sexualization of female athletes, but this photoshoot isn't the strongest piece of evidence.
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Intern Katy
11/24/09

@FroderickFronkensteen: I actually don't think it is necessarily homophobic either. That is what Evans believes, and she makes some interesting points. However, I ultimately do think that way the coach describes the project (as "selling" the women) and the difference between the men's team's page and the women's is indicative of the general feeling that female athletes NEED to be beautiful, or else they are somehow unmarketable/too threatening. I think I'm most bothered by the line on their website: "Confidence. Strength. Beauty," simply because I've never seen a men's team claim they "have it all" because the players are good looking.
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FroderickFronkensteen
11/24/09

@Intern Katy: Then we are in total agreement. I have a serious problem with the marketing of women's sports as little more than a mud-wrestling match; its so confusing as a woman (especially a young woman) in a male-dominated profession to really draw a definition of femininity for herself that doesn't conflict with a status quo set against her. I think this tagline ("Confidence. Strength. Beauty.") might be an effort to reach out to the young women feeling "unfeminine" because they've been told athletes are masculine, but it sorely misses the point and really just reinforces that confusion and insecurity which distorts healthy self-image and self-confidence. Good talk, cake for all!

#tips
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Intern Katy
11/24/09

@FroderickFronkensteen: Yes. Agreed all around.

But one problem: I'm team pie.
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FroderickFronkensteen
11/24/09

@Intern Katy: AND NOW WE ARE SWORN ENEMIES. Pistols at dawn, Madam.

#tips
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jennydsweetie001
11/24/09

@Intern Katy: Hi Katy! I made this comment above, but think it's really important to note. The women's website that we're discussing, and the men's site that you have linked to as the comparison are not apples to apples. The women's is a separate guide, away from the school's main Athletics page. Do you know if the men's team has their own separate website, too, where they might be pictured in suits, getting out of limos? Because the women's site on the official Athletics page is pretty much the exact equivalent of the men's site that you've linked to here.
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Intern Katy
11/24/09

@jennydsweetie001: I actually did a search for a page like the one for the women's team, and I was not able to find anything. Also, the article by Evans mentions explicitly that there wasn't a corresponding campaign for the men's team - this was something done only for the ladies. So no, while the websites aren't exactly the same, I think it is safe to say that they did not do a guys-in-suits bit. Unfortunately.
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J.D.Regent
11/24/09

In reply to Hot Shots: Basketball Team Photos Raise Questions Of Homophobia
I guess I don't understand why wearing a satin dress makes you look less gay.
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PilgrimSoul
11/24/09

@J.D.Regent: This was my question. Are we back to short hair/androgynous clothing being the only acceptable form of lesbian display?

It's weird, but this critique of heteornormativity strikes me as... heteronormative.
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Edited by PilgrimSoul at 11/24/09 12:51 PM PilgrimSoul was starred PilgrimSoul was unstarred

Israfel_angel
11/24/09

@J.D.Regent: Don't you? I mean, surely no lesbian EVER has worn a satin dress. Satin dresses make their flesh burn. I think I read that in the bible... or Sarah Palin's new book. Or something.
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you've got red on you
11/24/09

@Israfel_angel: This author must've snoozed through The L Word. Those ladies wore the hell out of some gorgeous, glamorous dresses. Whether or not that show is even remotely true to life is debatable, but the message was pretty clear: wearing a pretty dress doesn't make you any less gay.
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greeneyedfem
11/24/09

@you've got red on you: wearing a pretty dress doesn't make you any less gay

But it sure as hell makes you more palatable to straight people everywhere.

I think the real issue here is gender policing, not homophobia (although there is overlap).
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whynotshesaid
11/24/09

@greeneyedfem: YES. It is all about gender policing.
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