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Sex Ed: How To Keep Boys From Turning Into That Creepy Guy On Nerve

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Archon
04/14/09

In reply to Sex Ed: How To Keep Boys From Turning Into That Creepy Guy On Nerve
As a reader/commenter of the male variety, I am semi-offended that we are still referring to some of these absent-minded butt plugs as "men".

If one of these is ignorant enough to walk right up and go right to inquiring about sex, their public demeanor would be more like that of a badly behaved child then a "man".

Let's please call them as they are instead of describing them synonymously with the better section of the male race. I wouldn't want to be in the same boat as that either.
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resonanteye
04/15/09

@Archon: Please repeat this to every man you know. (or "child", or whatever you call your male friends)

The kind of guy we're talking about here, won't listen unless another guy is saying it.
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roodles
04/14/09

In reply to Sex Ed: How To Keep Boys From Turning Into That Creepy Guy On Nerve
True story:

My roomie and I were getting off the subway at about midnight. The only other people on the platform were a 15-17ish year old girl and a dude in his late teens/early 20s. As the roomie and I went up one steps the girl went the other way. Suddenly the guy started going "Hey, wait up. Hey bitch, hey bitch wait up". We turned around and saw that he was talking to the girl, he caught up with her and they started talking. So my roomie turns to me and says that they must know each other and he was just being funny to which I agreed because they seemed immediately chummy.

But we hung out just to check out the situation. A few seconds later we overhear him say "Yeah so I like the way you look in that miniskirt can I get your number?"

WE realized that a) they didn't know each other b) he addressed a woman by calling out "Hey bitch" c) she turned around, talked to him and actually did end up giving him her number.

Me and the roomie just gaped at each other and seriously almost started crying because it was just so fucking sad.

So yes, acting like tools does work for at least some guys.
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Rooo sez BISH PLZ
04/14/09

@roodles: And THAT is the horror. Because no one has talked to these girls to let them know they don't have to put up with that nastiness; to let them know they should be treated better.

"Students will rise to the level of expectation."

Jamie Escalante
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grrl
04/14/09

@roodles: or more likely...

1) she was talking to him because she realized that being a lone woman in a subway at night she didn't have a whole lot of running or fighting options. so she probably thought if she placated him verbally she'd prevent him from getting violent and he'd leave.

and

2) she have him *a* number. it probably wasn't *her* number. I mean, how the hell would the guy know? and it got him to leave her alone

my thought: when an older guy is chasing a teenage girl yelling "hey bitch", they're not friends and intervention on your part would probably be welcome.
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
04/14/09

@Rooo sez BISH PLZ: But it's really rare for a girl to respond in that way. On the other hand, it's really common for men to harass and badger women. No one has talked to boys to teach them to treat others with respect. It's they who are the problem.
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
04/14/09

@grrl: I have given guys fake numbers and names before, when I was alone and felt unsafe in refusing.
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roodles
04/14/09

@grrl: Maybe. But this is why my roomie and I stuck around, just to see that everything was ok and he wasn't going to do anything. And, like dudes tend to do nowadays he immediately called her phone number to see if it was accurate. (I've had this happen to me three times) The first time, it didn't work b/c he couldn't get a signal (they were partially up the station steps) then he tried it again a couple of steps up and her phone rang. Blerg.
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Rooo sez BISH PLZ
04/14/09

@HanaMaru: "But it's really rare for a girl to respond in that way."

Where do you live??
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clevernamehere
04/14/09

In reply to Sex Ed: How To Keep Boys From Turning Into That Creepy Guy On Nerve
About a year I was standing in front of a bar when a random guy screamed how much he would like me to blow him. I turned to the guy next to me and told him that I never understood why guys who were dumb enough to proposition me by screaming so rarely offered me any sexual satisfaction. Not that I want a random guy to go down on me, but I'm amazed that they always go the blow job route.

This blew the guy's mind. He seemed to get that screaming at a woman was unlikely to get good results but it had never even occured to him that women might be interested in their own pleasure.

I think it all comes back to the kind of advice men are offered when it comes to women. Magazines for men tend to focus on this unrealistic, joking way of picking up women but rarely offer any advice that could actually work. Cosmo might be the devil, but occassionally they actually try to help with your relationship. I've never seen an article in Maxim on how to comfort your girlfriend after a lay off or how to smoothly introduce your girlfriend to your friends.
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grrl
04/14/09

@clevernamehere: I turned to the guy next to me and told him that I never understood why guys who were dumb enough to proposition me by screaming so rarely offered me any sexual satisfaction.

it really doesn't seem a mystery to me.

Any guy acting that way clearly doesn't respect women or view them as anything more than objects. Why would he be interested in your pleasure and satisfaction if you're not even a person, just a hole? With those types it's all about the men being serviced, about the men being in command of a woman, telling her what to do, showing what a pimp-ass player he is by gettin the bitches, blah blah blah.

Seriously if they were a real Man they wouldn't be yelling at women on the street and out of cars.
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Lucille van Pelt
04/14/09

@clevernamehere: that's because cosmo is all about how to land and then please your man, while maxim and magazines of that sort are about how to please yourself.
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clevernamehere
04/14/09

@grrl: It isn't just guys yelling on the street though, it is also the guys who try and talk to you on the street for blocks and blocks.

And really, the best way to get something is to offer something. Any idiot knows that.
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resonanteye
04/15/09

@Lucille van Pelt: cosmo is about keeping somebody around (because keeping the man is the important thing) and maxim is about shuffling the crowd of chicks in and out the door.

*italics used for facetiousness
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
04/14/09

In reply to Sex Ed: How To Keep Boys From Turning Into That Creepy Guy On Nerve
Parents and schools should really be teaching boys to treat women with respect, obtain enthusiastic consent, don't slut shame/have double standards, etc. I don't care if some guy was insulted that he was told "no means no" when he already knew it. Lots of guys DON'T know it. Lots of guys think pushing through resistance is a normal and okay thing. Most parents aren't willing to consider that their son is one of those guys. "by the time a kid's a teen" he's been exposed to values from a lot of places, most of them affirming the view of women as virgins and whores and objects for their consumption.
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Maulleigh
04/14/09

In reply to Sex Ed: How To Keep Boys From Turning Into That Creepy Guy On Nerve
My roommate is a beautiful young latina who gets hit on ALL THE TIME. Guys I never notice in a million years come out of the woodwork to hassle her when she and go to the Keyfood or whatever. Guys come up to her on the subway and tell her they want to have babies with her.

When I was in my twenties, I'd have to run errands in the garment district and I hated it. Now I don't notice whether the men notice me or not because I have the ipod on all the time. Social buffer.
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Kali Mama
04/14/09

In reply to Sex Ed: How To Keep Boys From Turning Into That Creepy Guy On Nerve
Just today I was sitting outside a food stall (wearing a dress and boots), enjoying the sun, waiting for my friend to come out and this dude comes around and circles me and gestures and is all around creepy, so I dial up the perma bitch face but dude comes closer anyway until he's up in my face. So I knock on the window to signal my friend, who's a 6'3/220lbs hairy dude and he comes out and says "is this man bothering you", with that baritone voice of his. I look at creepo and respond "well, are you?". So creepo is all like "no harm man, respect man, you know, bye now". Huh, respect. WORD COGNITION FAIL.

There's this distinct correlation by how much shit strange men give me and whether or not I'm escorted by huge guys like my husband and my friend. TOTES WEIRD.
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kelsium
04/14/09

@Kali Mama: I have gotten shit from strange men even when walking places with Sir Kelsium who, while only 6'0 ish, is not a small dude and carries himself like the hockey player he is. When he has in his scarily calm voice asked these men what they think they are doing they responded everything from "No harm in askin', man!" to "I was talking to the lady, dude." As if I were some kind of animal they could lure away with a cookie, or with their oh so sexy lewd and obnoxious manner.

Some people have no fucking boundaries at all.
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
04/14/09

@Kali Mama: Of course he responds only to the other guy, like "oh, didn't know that object belonged to you" I hate that I'm treated like an unclaimed piece of property when I'm not escorted by a man.
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Fancy Pants
04/14/09

@kelsium: I always get it when I'm walking with my husband, which is extra creepy. It's always a sideways hitting on my through complimenting my husband on his choice of mate, so it's like I'm not even there. Triple objectifying!

My favorite so far: "You'd better hang on to her, man. She's a brick house!"
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kelsium
04/14/09

@Fancy Pants: Ha! That one is kind of funny. "Mighty mighty, just letting it all hang out," were you?

It's sad, but I don't mind it as much when men "compliment" Sir K on me, it's still objectifying and creepy as hell, but certainly less directly threatening than guys blatantly asking me to ditch him and come [insert creepy heinously inappropriate suggestion] with them. It sucks that we have to live in a world in which we evaluate things in terms of "well that was weird and creepy, but at least it didn't really threaten my sense of personal safety like usual!"
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prestocaro fears the culling
04/14/09

@Kali Mama: Your story is scary and reminds me of the time a bum tried to molest me on the beach. I was dozing with my sunglasses on, laying RIGHT NEXT TO MY FIANCE, and I saw a shadow pass over me, through my sunglasses and closed eyes. I sat up because I thought a bird was going to poop on me or something, but instead, it was a bum with his finger extended, leaning over frighteningly close to my body. I made a weird gurgling noise and the Fi woke up, on his feet instantly, and the bum took off.

Broad daylight, hundreds of tourists around, with a built guy laying right next to me. I don't go to the beach by myself anymore.
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kelsium
04/14/09

@prestocaro fears the Sexaual Peter: Mary, Mother of God, that is terrifying! I once attended a frat party that had gotten way out of hand with a male friend and a female friend. We didn't know how insane everything there had gotten until we walked in the door and my female friend and I were instantly literally picked up and groped/carried away by a group of guys. My male friend had to jump into the crowd and drag us away from them. We left immediately.

That is probably one of the scariest experiences of my life, and I am so thankful that I did not go there by myself or even just with her. It is ridiculous that even now in this country there are places women can't go and things they can't do safely without a male attendant.
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prestocaro fears the culling
04/14/09

@kelsium: OK, that frat party sounds chilling. It's terrifying how they can all feed off of each other and some guys who might harass you on the street can suddenly turned into a gang-rape-mob. I have had a few friends who were in frats, and most of them act like stories like that are crazy, but one of them (the one I'm still friends with) describes his time in the frat as the lowest point in his life. He's a big human rights punk rock nerd. When he pledged, we were all floored and tried to talk him out of it; when he was accepted, he acted like he loved it. It wasn't until he graduated that he admitted what an awful fit it was and how skeezy 99% of the members are.
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kelsium
04/14/09

@prestocaro fears the Sexaual Peter: It's things like that that indicate to me that construction worker catcalling and the like are more about sexual violence than people think. It's a male-bonding game about otherizing women, that with the addition of a little alcohol can turn into a horrifying mob mentality pretty fast.
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LolaQuinn is full of beans
04/14/09

In reply to Sex Ed: How To Keep Boys From Turning Into That Creepy Guy On Nerve
My research fantasy is to implement school-wide programs that teach early-adolescents appropriate sexual boundaries, with the goal of drastically reducing sexual harassment of all types between boys and girls. Then a follow-up study, years later, showing that kids in these programs do not whistle at, grope, proposition, or otherwise sexually objectify others. And have healthier relationships. And also, that I win a Nobel prize.
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prestocaro fears the culling
04/14/09

@LolaQuinn: I love this idea. I've recently decided that I'm going to pursue a career as a sexologist, so this is right up my alley since I also love child development.

I'm friending you for our shared interests :)
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Whiskey and Popcorn
04/14/09

In reply to Sex Ed: How To Keep Boys From Turning Into That Creepy Guy On Nerve
Ironically, I have had men declare loudly, publicly, how they would NEVER sleep with me. Like they can choose.
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thegogglesdonothing
04/14/09

In reply to Sex Ed: How To Keep Boys From Turning Into That Creepy Guy On Nerve
I think that a huge factor is that a lot of this inappropriate behavior comes from men who basically hit on any attractive woman indiscriminately, whereas choosier men are probably going to put more effort into impressing the specific woman/type of woman that they are interested in.

I'd like to see boys encouraged from an early age to spend more time thinking about the type of female they're legitimately attracted to, and put more care into the initial approach. Guys need to get beyond the whole "pick up line = quick hook-up" and realize that satisfying sexual relationships and mutual respect are not contradictions in terms.
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kelsium
04/14/09

@thegogglesdonothing: I don't think most on-the-street harassment, leers and pick-up lines are intended to end in an actual conquest. I think that more often than not the men participating see it as a game, a male bonding ritual that emphasizes the otherness of strange women. There is nothing actually sexual going on there.
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NellMood
04/14/09

@kelsium: I agree. These men don't really want you to come home with them, they want to shock you. It's about power and control.
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DramaClub
04/14/09

In reply to Sex Ed: How To Keep Boys From Turning Into That Creepy Guy On Nerve
I have boys. My oldest just started developing pit hair but he hasn't yet gotten past the idea that kissing girls is icky. His entire life has been one long lesson in respect because that is how his father and I treat each other. The best way to teach respect for women is to raise boys in a house where respect for women is the norm.

All the other things we teach as they come up. When the preschooler is naked and ready for the bathtub and we see he's sitting on the sofa "making his penis big" that's when you tell them we know it feels nice when you make your penis big but that's something you do in private. When they ask about girls' bodies, you can work the clitoris in by referring to how nice it feels when he makes his penis big and tell him girls have a spot that feels nice, too. It's not rocket science but it does take a certain amount of shameless confidence to talk about it. Which is the best argument for raising kids in a sex-positive environment, in my humble parenting opinion.
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Trulymadlyme
04/14/09

@DramaClub: Please write a book. Or start a blog immediately. Because the world needs more parenting like you and your husbands!
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nessalicious
04/14/09

In reply to Sex Ed: How To Keep Boys From Turning Into That Creepy Guy On Nerve
Riding my bike 7 miles to work, then back again every day means the propositioning is NON FREAKING STOP.

Eg.

"COR COME AND RIDE MY SADDLE EH?"

"I CAN SEE RIGHT UP YOUR SKIRT LOVE, IT'S NICE" (no, you can't I'm wearing shorts underneath over tights, eejit)

"GET IN MY VAN, I'LL GET YOU THERE QUICKER... AND GET YOU OFF TOO"

Gag gag gag.
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Everything MidnightBikeRide does is a balloon.
04/14/09

@nessalicious: OMG riding a bike in a skirt is the quickest way ever to get awful comments. Or while wearing anything, actually. And there even more belligerent than regular propositioners because you just know they were gonna shout "Get out of the road, idiot!" beofre they noticed you were female.
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nessalicious
04/14/09

@Everything MidnightBikeRide does is a balloon.: I know! And I don't wear trousers/jeans ever really cos I don't like them, so every day is full of hilaaaaaarious comments like that. I am now the master of "FUCK.....OFFFFF!!!" and a speedy pedal away.
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SylvanSylph
04/14/09

@nessalicious: Oh no! Walking to work means I am too far away from cars for much yelling (it's generally along busy streets), so I mostly get honking. Relentless honking. Like maybe once every minute or two. This has always made me wonder what the hell they were trying to communicate to me. Now I know. Bleh.
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NellMood
04/14/09

@nessalicious: This used to happen to me all the time when I biked to work, too. Cars would ride right behind me, even if they had plenty of room to pass, for several blocks. Then they'd drive to be parallel to me and would honk and yell something sleezy. It always made me super anxious- I can't tolerate that shit when I'm on my little bike and they're in a SUV.
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pear.shaped.Sara
04/14/09

@nessalicious: Ugh. My bike ride to work is only a mile and a half in a fairly quiet suburb, but I've gotten a "Hey girl, what's up?" from a random dude in the Walgreens parking lot.

A) Biking to work what the eff do you think?

B) Why are you hanging out in the Walgreens parking lot?

shudder
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Red-headed bookworm
04/14/09

In reply to Sex Ed: How To Keep Boys From Turning Into That Creepy Guy On Nerve
Never propositioned explicitly, but Sunday I stopped at the store wearing a Cubs t-shirt. I have never gotten as much male attention as that. Very weird...but at least the guys were nice. Just extra chatty for strangers.
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Scoithniamh
04/14/09

@Red-headed bookworm: Ha, me too! But, nice attention. I was wearing one of those old school 80s Mike-Ditka-style football sweaters (49ers), and tons of dudes approached me and told me how awesome it was.
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Red-headed bookworm
04/14/09

@Scoithniamh: At least the guys are trying for a common interest thing. Maybe they should give pointers to other guys on how to talk to a woman.
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ImproperDancing
04/14/09

In reply to Sex Ed: How To Keep Boys From Turning Into That Creepy Guy On Nerve
Is just me or would those pick up lines create the opposite effect than those intended.

Perv:"You'd look great giving me head..."

"You'd look great with my shoe up your ass!"

If I have sons they WILL be learning respect and that not only "no means no" but you BETTER ask if what you're doing is ok and wait for an explicit "YES."
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ImproperDancing
04/14/09

@ImproperDancing: correction:

ME:"You'd look great with my shoe up your ass!"
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tscheese
04/14/09

In reply to Sex Ed: How To Keep Boys From Turning Into That Creepy Guy On Nerve
Being giant and stompy and having short hair and looking extremely bitchface butch doesn't seem to keep the leering and jeering away from me either. Like three times in the last week I've had men make unwanted comments on my appearance. Nothing overtly sexual, but just stuff like, "Heeeeey pretty girl" and "BEAUTY HEY HEY BEAUTY OVER HERE!" Why the fuck do these men assume that my personal appearance is there for their amusement? Look, it's one thing to give a stranger a heartfelt compliment, but this is weird jeering, shouting, your-existence- is-for-my-personal-consumption way.

Why? Why is this okay?
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kelsium
04/14/09

@tscheese: Unfortunately this behavior manifests a huge distrust in women of strange men. If I receive even a genuine compliment from a man on the street my first reaction is fear. "Is he trying to get me to stop? I should just keep walking and not respond. Oh god, I hope he doesn't follow me." etc. We are living in a society in which a woman cannot accept a wholeheartedly meant compliment from a man just because he is unfamiliar to her.
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Whiskey and Popcorn
04/14/09

In reply to Sex Ed: How To Keep Boys From Turning Into That Creepy Guy On Nerve
Are there really women out there turning down sex? I say this because I had NO IDEA it happened. Getting propositioned I mean. I haz a confuzed.
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