I have this argument with my roommate all the time.
He reads superhero comics (side note: I dislike Uncanny X-Men and was so disappointed in the lack of race, gender ANYTHING nuances. I had heard so many good things about X-Men and it just didn't stack up). I get annoyed with people who draw all the women with the same bodies. Granted, they draw men all the same, too. But this is what's frustrating! People look different! Give them different proportions and faces!
He argues that it's an escape fantasy, and that people want to read about what are essentially wet dreams about what they wish they were - beautiful, strong, superpowered, adventurous, whathaveyou people. I think that's bull. I want to play lots of different people when I game. I always choose a race other than human (or its equivalent), because I find that more fun. I make characters that I wouldn't really ever want to be, but I want to explore what it might be like to be a princess, or an assassin, or have giant-ass horns. He always picks someone who is more or less him.
I don't want a fantasy world full of idealized characters. I want flaws, I want scars and missing limbs, different races, different genders, sexualities, abilities and all of that. It's so much more of an escape fantasy that way, I feel. I don't want to be me, I want to be someone else, to try to figure out what that might be like. I'm wrong, of course, but it helps me relate to people better. I remember playing a deaf woman, and how challenging it was to know that she couldn't hear anything (it was D&D and she was a bard. That was a roleplaying challenge). It made me think about my own abilities, my own prejudices, and my privilege to be able to hear in a way that I probably never would have experienced in any other way. Do I know what it's like to be deaf? Of course not. But it made me think more about what life would be like and made me a little more sympathetic to my own privilege.
I don't think this is necessarily a dangerous thing, but I think it's like erosion. A little is not that big of a deal. But over time, it starts to matter. We start to see this as "normal" - I know too many people who already do. They see this as what men/women should strive to be, and those who don't are strange and uneducated. This is the picture of health and beauty, and they won't settle for less. Sometimes for themselves, but most often for partners. I don't think video games will like, bring down society or anything, but I think it can exacerbate problems that already exist. It doesn't happen overnight, but over years and years of escaping into this fantasy, so many of my friends seem to have trouble breaking out of it. #videogames
@boxspelunker: Yeah, I also disagree with him. People like to identify with characters, but what they want most of all are good stories.
Tell him to read Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol. The three main characters are a woman with multiple personalities, a man who had his brain put in a metal body, and a male/female amalgamation. #videogames
@TheUptightMidwesterner: They want to make the panda people a race! But in China, you can't show a panda getting hurt or dying. That's why it's the $10 non-combat pet - they never die.
Blame China! I would be a panda person too! #videogames
My mom’s gotten really into Facebook (weird – I know), but she likes the games on there, farmingtown or whatever the kids are playing these days. But recently she tried out this Sims-like game, and she just used a standard avatar, which was of course ‘sexy’ – halter, mini, whatever. And some guy started hitting on her avatar. My mom, being a married mother of 7 who hasn’t flirted in over 30 years, just shot him down and walked into her pretend apartment. Somehow – I’m not sure how these games work – he forced his way behind her and followed her in and stood in her room asking her to have sex (?!). Anyway, she logged off and reported him (what a creep), and then went to make her avatar as dowdy as possible.
My point, I guess, is that people already feel like they have permission to be total tools when they’re online, and I think the hypersexualization of female avatars exacerbates that. That dick would have been unlikely to treat my mom like that in real life. These creations don’t look like women, who should be respected, they look like blow-up dolls, which exist purely for the gratification of men. So the men who are already douchebags are even more likely to objectify and mistreat the female avatars. #videogames
@sympathyforthebasementcat: "These creations don’t look like women, who should be respected, they look like blow-up dolls, which exist purely for the gratification of men."
I take issue with the idea that they do not look like women "who should be respected."
All women, even those who "look like blow-up dolls" and are dressed in a sexual manner, deserve respect. Those creations may not look like the majority of women, and their body types should not be the only ones to represent women as a whole, but women who look or dress like them still deserve respect.
@Commentista: I think the point was that women, regardless of what they look like, should be respected, but plastic blowup dolls, who have giant heads, eyes, and perma pouty lips are not women. The comma matters. #videogames
@InABook: Thanks for clarifying my point. That's exactly what I meant. The commas were important. Obviously, women, and human beings in general, should be respected, regardless of what they're wearing or look like. #videogames
@Zombie Ms. Skittles: I'm so glad you made me remember Sims! I'm feeling a little down. Maybe the best way to cope is to get a male werewolf pregnant with alien babies, stat. #videogames
@LovelyHue: I just rediscovered the game! I am running a Legacy family and man o man, nothing makes life feel more manageable than being the petty, vindictive god of my own little world. Someone got disinherited for not doing her homework as a child and almost getting the social worker to come steal away all my babies. #videogames
@Zombie Ms. Skittles: I used to scoff at people who get sucked into gaming for hours. Get a life! Read a book! Then I went home last year for the holiday break and became completely obsessed with SimAnimals, staying up way too late to tend "my" forest, and it still bothers me that I could never figure out how to make the beavers happy. #videogames
@Zombie Ms. Skittles: I used to be somewhat amused by my inability to intentionally construct an unattractive -- not just unconventially attractive -- Sim. I even made several attempts to construct a scaled down representation of the world, with all of its groups included... except everyone had the faces of supermodels. And pretty much everyone was making out. :) If only I had the CPU stats to get Sims3, and the accompanying assload of user-created objects and hacks... I'd probably end up like Cartman in that WOW episode. #videogames
@Zombie Ms. Skittles: I definitely downloaded a more awesome set of defaults... as well as every other thing.
I stopped playing much because well.. I do have other things to do... and also, the amazing sculpture-like hairstyles with realistic movements were ruining my graphics card... #videogames
@Zombie Ms. Skittles: I did replace them, and it was great. I think it was at MTS2 and the Pirate Forum (no piracy involved in this particular situation) the woman "traced" the default faces back to their intended ethnicities, looked for photo examples of each phenotype and incorporated it into the redo.
@Raised-byHeathens: I don't always agree with the gender politics in the plotline, but it's a decent story, given that it's told in 8 minute increments. #videogames
I get this magazine and am wary of this woman; I wish I had HBO, and I'm really glad they got her to admit her bullshit on camera.
Pisses me off b/c I'm still holding out for decent non-toxic affordable skincare...how would I feel better about losing my looks when that's compounded by wasting my money and being duped (not to mention the irritants often found in a lot of these creams)?
Buying beauty products is basically a tax on being female. Plenty of studies have been done demonstrating that women have to spend a lot more on 'basic' grooming than men and that products geared toward women tend to be marked up for no reason other than women are used to spending money on their appearance. THAT'S why the attitude of this editor is infuriating. Women spend billions on useless crap that popular magazines are basically paid to shill, but this isn't a problem?
The internet is a gift for consumers who are tired of being suckered by the beauty industry (which includes magazines like Allure). Beauty blogs, user review sites like Makeupalley, and YouTube are the best sources for advice on what actually works and what's a scam.
Thanks to MUA, I've become MUCH better at reading labels. I used to buy whatever was advertised for my skin type, but now know to check for certain ingredients and to pay attention to the ordering of them on the label (FYI: if the active ingredient touted on the label is way down in the list, then there's not nearly enough of it to be effective). You'd be shocked at how many of the skincare products on the market are really the same five cheap filler ingredients dressed up in different packaging.
@lodown: MUAlley is amazing. I just joined because I'm trying to do my own wedding makeup and spent about an hour just reading reviews! It was so educational -- I have learned about all types of cheap tricks and substitutes. I love that so many posters are anxious about strange chemicals in the creams too.
I hate this. I'm too much of a cheapass to spend money on overpriced products that do nothing, but the fear of losing my looks is ingrained in me. I like to think I don't give a rat's ass about what other people think, and I actively sneer at advertising such that I will refuse to buy something being pushed at me on principle, but the fact remains that I'm scared of getting older and everything about it. I'm scared of losing my youth and terrified of that gradual fading/being tucked away from public view that seems to happen to women over a certain age.
@Ri_L: Ditto....23. And I have a subscription to Allure that I think I''l let expire. I rely on the internet for my reviews, not what is essentially a glamorized catologue. God bless Makeupalley.
I'll admit it...I have wasted countless hours (and plenty of dollars, but more time) looking at skincare stuff, for the cheap sunscreen/moisturizer/anti-aging thingamajig that is neither toxic, nor will break me out.
Brought me right back to the same drugstore lackluster shit, but at least there are scent-free versions of the topical stuff manufacturers normally fill with perfumes and dyes (perfume....in a face cream? God, why? How disgusting!).
I don't care if I develop a wrinkle for every straw I use. You're not taking my straw away!!!! They're convenient and make drinking things faster. And, if my straw's long enough, I can drink your milkshake!
"If it makes you feel good and you feel like you've got some tiny bit of control over this process, what's the negative?"
She totally misses the point. If a woman is coerced, fooled and lied to into thinking that the $400 jar of eye cream is better than the $12 one, how much control does she actually have in the process?
I might also add that I am 40 and have found that exercise, sleep, healthy food and very little smoking or drinking have done a much better job keeping me looking and feeling pretty damn good about myself than the $400 eye creams did when I was buying them in my 20s.
I've found I actually spend less on beauty products now than I did a decade ago because I've honed down what I need (as opposed to the items that just sound good) and what I have time to slather on my face. Also, maturity has taught me I will get more out of $75 in groceries than $75 in beauty products.
A lot of off-the-shelf beauty products do improve the appearance of the skin temporarily. But none of it is medicine; none of it is subject to the methods and review of the scientific community. If you’re really concerned about your skin, talk to a dermatologist, preferably one who is not affiliated with or invested in a brand of cosmetic products. She will steer you straight.
@iplaudius: Second the Derm. Its not like NONE of this stuff works. A lot of it does. If it didn't we would all wash our faces with Dial and have no issues. Creams and potions can help do small things: brighten the compplexion, moisturizer, tame mild acne or oiliness, maybe fine wrinkles.
If aging is what you are really concerned about you need to hit the Vitamin A (Tazorac) or retinoids. These I think, are the only two things that are PROVEN to prevent lines and wrinkles. Rx only.
Yes, a dermatologist should be consulted for serious skin problems and in this case you should go to someone who is unabashedly interested in cosmetic issues. Don't go to someone who says "Do you know how lucky you are, in Third World countries people's noses are falling off from untreated conditions -- my residency was fascinating."
Go to a place where of all the patients you have the worst skin.
And as you said, avoid the ones with their own lines to push.
@LaFemme: Retinoids are a derivative of vitamin A. Tazorac is a brand name like Retin-a; tazarotene and tretinoin are the generic names and both are retinoids. And I believe (not 100% sure) that so far anti-aging research trials have only tested tretinoin, not tazarotene (though I bet Taz is similarly effective).
But yes, retinoids are the only proven anti-ager out there. That and a stable, broad-spectrum sunscreen used daily.
@lodown: "a stable, broad-spectrum sunscreen used daily."
is my only "anti-aging" product. The fewer things I put on my face, the better. I agree, retinoids -- the ones that require a prescription -- work, but prevention is always better. Over the counter creams temporarily plump up the skin or exfoliate, but I find them more irritating than helpful.
@lodown: Ah ok, yeah I always get confused with the drug names and the brands. I am on Tazorac for acne, and my derm just mentioned that if it works for me, I can pretty much continue to use it forever, with daily sunscreen, for aging purposes. She has amazing skin and really pushes the retinoids, so I trust it. And it is like 50 dollars for a 6+ month supply, so can't really go wrong there.
11/06/09
He reads superhero comics (side note: I dislike Uncanny X-Men and was so disappointed in the lack of race, gender ANYTHING nuances. I had heard so many good things about X-Men and it just didn't stack up). I get annoyed with people who draw all the women with the same bodies. Granted, they draw men all the same, too. But this is what's frustrating! People look different! Give them different proportions and faces!
He argues that it's an escape fantasy, and that people want to read about what are essentially wet dreams about what they wish they were - beautiful, strong, superpowered, adventurous, whathaveyou people. I think that's bull. I want to play lots of different people when I game. I always choose a race other than human (or its equivalent), because I find that more fun. I make characters that I wouldn't really ever want to be, but I want to explore what it might be like to be a princess, or an assassin, or have giant-ass horns. He always picks someone who is more or less him.
I don't want a fantasy world full of idealized characters. I want flaws, I want scars and missing limbs, different races, different genders, sexualities, abilities and all of that. It's so much more of an escape fantasy that way, I feel. I don't want to be me, I want to be someone else, to try to figure out what that might be like. I'm wrong, of course, but it helps me relate to people better. I remember playing a deaf woman, and how challenging it was to know that she couldn't hear anything (it was D&D and she was a bard. That was a roleplaying challenge). It made me think about my own abilities, my own prejudices, and my privilege to be able to hear in a way that I probably never would have experienced in any other way. Do I know what it's like to be deaf? Of course not. But it made me think more about what life would be like and made me a little more sympathetic to my own privilege.
I don't think this is necessarily a dangerous thing, but I think it's like erosion. A little is not that big of a deal. But over time, it starts to matter. We start to see this as "normal" - I know too many people who already do. They see this as what men/women should strive to be, and those who don't are strange and uneducated. This is the picture of health and beauty, and they won't settle for less. Sometimes for themselves, but most often for partners. I don't think video games will like, bring down society or anything, but I think it can exacerbate problems that already exist. It doesn't happen overnight, but over years and years of escaping into this fantasy, so many of my friends seem to have trouble breaking out of it. #videogames
11/06/09
Tell him to read Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol. The three main characters are a woman with multiple personalities, a man who had his brain put in a metal body, and a male/female amalgamation. #videogames
11/06/09
I just really want to be a Panda. #videogames
11/06/09
11/06/09
Blame China! I would be a panda person too! #videogames
08:19 AM
11/06/09
My point, I guess, is that people already feel like they have permission to be total tools when they’re online, and I think the hypersexualization of female avatars exacerbates that. That dick would have been unlikely to treat my mom like that in real life. These creations don’t look like women, who should be respected, they look like blow-up dolls, which exist purely for the gratification of men. So the men who are already douchebags are even more likely to objectify and mistreat the female avatars. #videogames
11/06/09
I take issue with the idea that they do not look like women "who should be respected."
All women, even those who "look like blow-up dolls" and are dressed in a sexual manner, deserve respect. Those creations may not look like the majority of women, and their body types should not be the only ones to represent women as a whole, but women who look or dress like them still deserve respect.
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
That said, most of my Sims are incredibly pretty. #videogames
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
I stopped playing much because well.. I do have other things to do... and also, the amazing sculpture-like hairstyles with realistic movements were ruining my graphics card... #videogames
11/06/09
I too am incapable of making a truly ugly Sim. Even the one I made to be the "village idiot" is kind of handsome. #videogames
11/06/09
@purpleshoes reminds everyone to take typing breaks and stretch, ow: OMG, if you have Sims 2, at Mod the Sims 2, they have a ton of ethnic garb from all over, including salwaar khameezes. I even had 3 burkhas from Sims Resource. Damn, I miss that game. #videogames
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
Pisses me off b/c I'm still holding out for decent non-toxic affordable skincare...how would I feel better about losing my looks when that's compounded by wasting my money and being duped (not to mention the irritants often found in a lot of these creams)?
09/01/09
The internet is a gift for consumers who are tired of being suckered by the beauty industry (which includes magazines like Allure). Beauty blogs, user review sites like Makeupalley, and YouTube are the best sources for advice on what actually works and what's a scam.
Thanks to MUA, I've become MUCH better at reading labels. I used to buy whatever was advertised for my skin type, but now know to check for certain ingredients and to pay attention to the ordering of them on the label (FYI: if the active ingredient touted on the label is way down in the list, then there's not nearly enough of it to be effective). You'd be shocked at how many of the skincare products on the market are really the same five cheap filler ingredients dressed up in different packaging.
09/01/09
09/01/09
And I only just turned 25.
09/01/09
I'll admit it...I have wasted countless hours (and plenty of dollars, but more time) looking at skincare stuff, for the cheap sunscreen/moisturizer/anti-aging thingamajig that is neither toxic, nor will break me out.
Brought me right back to the same drugstore lackluster shit, but at least there are scent-free versions of the topical stuff manufacturers normally fill with perfumes and dyes (perfume....in a face cream? God, why? How disgusting!).
09/01/09
09/01/09
Besides, using a straw is better for your teeth and your enamel will not wear down as fast as not using one. So there!
09/01/09
09/01/09
She totally misses the point. If a woman is coerced, fooled and lied to into thinking that the $400 jar of eye cream is better than the $12 one, how much control does she actually have in the process?
I might also add that I am 40 and have found that exercise, sleep, healthy food and very little smoking or drinking have done a much better job keeping me looking and feeling pretty damn good about myself than the $400 eye creams did when I was buying them in my 20s.
I've found I actually spend less on beauty products now than I did a decade ago because I've honed down what I need (as opposed to the items that just sound good) and what I have time to slather on my face. Also, maturity has taught me I will get more out of $75 in groceries than $75 in beauty products.
09/01/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
If aging is what you are really concerned about you need to hit the Vitamin A (Tazorac) or retinoids. These I think, are the only two things that are PROVEN to prevent lines and wrinkles. Rx only.
09/01/09
Yes, a dermatologist should be consulted for serious skin problems and in this case you should go to someone who is unabashedly interested in cosmetic issues. Don't go to someone who says "Do you know how lucky you are, in Third World countries people's noses are falling off from untreated conditions -- my residency was fascinating."
Go to a place where of all the patients you have the worst skin.
And as you said, avoid the ones with their own lines to push.
09/01/09
But yes, retinoids are the only proven anti-ager out there. That and a stable, broad-spectrum sunscreen used daily.
09/01/09
"a stable, broad-spectrum sunscreen used daily."
is my only "anti-aging" product. The fewer things I put on my face, the better. I agree, retinoids -- the ones that require a prescription -- work, but prevention is always better. Over the counter creams temporarily plump up the skin or exfoliate, but I find them more irritating than helpful.
09/01/09
09/01/09