So for pro spankers, if an adult has a mental age of 3, is spanking them the same as spanking a child? And if you are repulsed by the idea of spanking a mentally handicapped adult, how is that different than spanking a child? I just think violence is violence and for me, violence is not an option. Period. And I think people have the primitive urge to dominate, the larger over the small especially adults over children as our chattel, and they are not facing up to and handling this urge in themselves. Dealing with this power struggle is a huge, and mostly unexplored part of parenting. And it needs to be dealt with, not just accepted as :"It's always been this way'" or "It happened to me and I'm OK", or : "That person cant reason the way I do" . People used to say that about men hitting their wives to correct them, women voting or owning property, child labour, owning slaves, and any other number of insane things we now consider backwards. Why is the idea of children's rights so confrontational?
It teaches all sorts of lessons which are very destructive, and which more than weigh out the temporary good of "Well at least little Bobby stopped trying to play with the stove."
Spanking teaches children that violence and love are interrelated. It teaches that suffering and the body should be ignored, not felt. Spanking children teaches them that they are not worthy of the respect of adults. Spanking provokes anger and desire for revenge, which must be repressed; children learn how to repress their feelings this way. Since many parents spank in the throes of anger, but insist their spanking is educational, children learn to accept deceptive arguments from authority figures.
Has anyone read the book "We Need to Talk About Kevin?" Completely barring any references to the actual content of the book (if you've read it, you'll know why), there is a quote in there the I unfortunately can't find right now about how the mother feels about corporal punishment that always stuck with me. The gist of it was that, (if you agree with spanking) there is always some sort of power balance in the parent-child relationship that dictates the effectiveness of your spanking. By this she meant that sometimes it's not even the actual spank that's important--if your children believe that you WILL spank them, then they have a sort of fear of you that keeps them in line, often without the actual violence.
Other people have made this comment too, but even though I was only spanked very rarely, I think that just the thought of getting spanked and/or being threatened with belts definitely made me behave a number of times when nothing else would have made me do so--I was a devious and inventive child. So, when used sparingly, I think it had even more power. I'm sure you could say that threats are not the best way to keep your child in line, but I don't think it had any detrimental effects on me. I have a very loving and respectful relationship with my parents, and I've never regretted the fact that they spanked me.
Then again, I think I weaseled my way out of that power dynamic a bit earlier than most, because when I was 8 or 10 or so, I realized that my dad was (and is) a fat old man and that I could run faster than him! No more spankings happened after that, but the idea of grounding was introduced soon after...
@Hey Girl Hey: Yeah see I think thats the crux of the issue and I REALLY don't think its healthy for a child to viscerally fear a parent. The book you mentioned is fiction about a sociopathic kid, so maybe if one had a sociopathic kid, one might wan to instill some physical fear. But for the rest of us in real life? Very uncool. I mean, would you want a relationship where you viscerally physically feared your lover? Or have your elderly parents viscerally fear you? If not, then why would you want to do that to your kid?
My mom was very emotionally abusive with no social skills,and also spanked us- which escalated to other nasty things like slapping and withholding and leaving and verbal abuse. Im still viscerally afraid of her, and still sometimes have nightmares about screaming and not being heard. Meanwhile she's starved for intimacy and affection from all of her children because we still fear her, just when she wishes for it the most. I just don't think fear is a suitable motivator for anything, its absolutely the wrong paradigm to use in life. I teach school now, and I refuse to motivate my students through fear. It works wonders for them and they blossom and get inspired...
I'm disappointed in these comments. There are countless things in this world that we've lived through and now "we're fine." But "fine" is not the point, is it? I grew up being told that to be fat was hilarious and disgusting, and now I'm "fine." My mother was given no money from her parents to go to college, while her brothers were supported, and she's "fine." We're better than fine, we're doing great, but that's not the point. Have we all lost the capacity to imagine something better? Isn't that the point? That there are these little things that happen everyday that maybe no one thinks about, or everyone thinks are normal, and we have to look at it anew. I don't want to live in a violent society, and I don't want to breed a violent society.
I also grew up in a so-called "spanking household", but was rarely spanked. Now I work with abused children. There is a line between corporal punishment (legal in my state) and abuse, but there is a clear guideline: any non-accidental injury to a child that leaves any redness of the skin exceeding 24 hours is considered unnecessary, and therefore abusive. So, if a parent whacks a kid on the bottom and leaves a bruise, well, there's your answer. Of course, there is a lot of parents in the world that believe that because they were spanked, it must have worked. But spanking only works temporarily. It's much more beneficial to a child to be raised in a Positive Parenting atmosphere, where disiplinary actions create long term reactions.
I grew up in a household run by a former hippy with lingering inclinations towards this lifestyle--or her idea of it-- (and a father who we taunted for having been the president of the Young Republicans of America club in high school), so we ate a lot of wheat germ, supplemented with blue green algae, played with "gender-neutral" toys, and didn't get spanked. I can remember one incident, maybe at 9 or 10, when I was sitting next to my mother in the car, being insufferable I'm sure, and she open hand smacked me on the leg, leaving a red imprint of her hand. That's the first and last time I remember being deal with physically though I was on restriction A LOT.
My mom still vividly remembers the threatening length of rubber hose hanging from a peg in her Kindergarten class. She was never hit with it, but dreaded the possibility, even though she was a meek, quiet child--an unlikely candidate for the hose. However, she didn't want her children to live with that unspoken possibility hanging over their heads, so we knew from early on that WE Were Not a Spanking Household and even as a child, I made judgments on parents who kept homes that were Spanking Households.
Despite my judgment at the time of Households that Spank (and a lingering judgment, I admit), for all my mother's good intentions, we probably endured a lot more abuse than most kids who get spanked...my dad had serious rage problems and the sound of his screaming, either at you, about you, or about or to my mom or brother was a constant menace. I would have rather been spanked.
Ditto. Given the choice of 3-5 swats on my plump backside and getting screamed at and cursed out and given the silent treatment, you know don't have to guess what I'd choose as punishment. Seriously, the pain a kids butt receives from being smacked with a bare hand only lasts moments...in fact the hand probably will hurt more than the tushie afterwards. The pain of having an overworked, angry, depressed, and possibly drunken parent take their life-long disappointments out on you verbally will last a lifetime.
@Vulcan Has No Moon: It doesn't have to be either case. Spanking is not the other side of emotional abuse - and it can be a gateway to both emotional and physical abuse. I don't see promoting one abuse for another as productive. Sure, a swat on the butt a few times when a little kid is a real brat might be helpful, but when used constantly it's abusive, just as a few yells at a child can be helpful, but daily yelling, either at the child or just in the house, is abusive. There doesn't have to be any of these happening, and that should the aim - anger being dealt with in a healthy, productive way, not being let on the children in any way, either through emotional or physical abuse.
We are dealing with this at the moment in NZ. The legislation has changed so that people can no longer use the "reasonable force" argument to essentially get off abuse charges.
The outcry to the law change was astounding. People didn't realise that the law wasn't forbidding a light smack occasionally, it was safeguarding children against abuse. But people want their right to smack their kids.
The same outrage was prevalent when the law was changed to men couldn't legally beat their wives. Just because something shocks people because of their backgrounds and mores, does not mean it shouldn't be done.
@Tessie: Thank you for the wife-beating analogy, because I think it's very apropos. Husbands used to believe they had a RIGHT and in some cases a DUTY to physically 'correct' their wives - an argument pro-smackers roll out about their children. I don't believe hitting is necessary to correct or discipline a child, and I think it sends some really crappy messages about power and love.
@Sarah Dove: Ok, for the last time, adults are not children (who depend on adults for nourishment, emotional development, protection and guidance). Adults are not dogs (who often depend on their masters for food, shelter, protection and training). Adults are adults and to compare them to anything else is to strip them of their agency-which is the central problem in abusive relationships, not the physical stuff (yes, that is terrible, but I think most experts and those of us who have actually BEEN in an abusive relationship will tell you that the emotional trauma and power imbalance are the more difficult to treat aspects of abuse). And please, a spank does NOT have to mean abuse. Abuse is systematic trauma, both physical and emotional that one party uses to try to maintain a disordered power balance and to make sense of feelings of loss of control(at least that's my rough definition of it). Someone disciplining their children (which by the way is something that you have to do as a parent, otherwise you're just as bad as "those" parents who hit their kids) is different. Discipline is about instilling respect, protecting your children's welfare (by teaching them about safety) and instructing them and it comes from a place of love. Abuse comes from a place of fear, anger, powerlessness and lack of control. So let's STOP confusing the two, ok?
@5ft of fury: Often people who abuse think they are instilling discipline. They don't see it as abuse, they thing they know the RIGHT thing and others must be punished for their own good. Some of us simply don't agree with you and will never agree with you that parents ever have a right to hit children.
@jrhys: Really? So every parent who has ever disciplined has ABUSED? Note that I didn't say discipline has to be corporal punishment. I think you need to go take a look at the multitude of comments from people who were spanked in a responsible manner by their parents, because they don't seem to think they were being abused by their parents. I was abused and I think I can tell the difference between discipline, including corporal punishment, and abuse. And you know, it's ok for you to not agree with me. I probably won't agree with you on a lot of issues, but if we a) agree to disagree and b) don't try to take away from each other's rights then we should get along just fine.
I grew up in a pro-spanking household, but I wasn't spanked. Well, I was spanked for a very short period of time, but my parents had to stop. I'm the youngest child and only girl. All my brothers were spanked or given a quick "smack" when they misbehaved and that punishment style worked for them. I however, had a tendency to throw tantrums and when my parents tried to discipline me with spanking it only made the tantrums worse.
One day my mom and dad sat down and made a new rule for me. I wasn't to be spanked. My dad made it because he said it was useless to try and get me to conform to a parenting style that obviously didn't work for me. He said he also didn't like the idea of having to hit me harder and harder to get me to calm down and that if they didn't try something else he was afraid one day he'd go too far.
So they decided to ignore me when I threw a tantrum. If I got out of hand I was put in my parents' room (where there were no toys) and had to stay there until I could calm myself down.
I think spanking can be a reliable disciplinary tool for a lot of parents, but they also need to realize that the punishment may not be appropriate for every child. If a child's behavior doesn't change for the positive, then you need to think of a different approach. Flexibility is the best way to raise a child.
@madwithpower: Yes! This is the crux of the whole thing: nothing is good or bad for EVERY child (barring starving and major abuse of course-obviously those are always bad)
The methods have to be adapted to the individual
I took Psychology of the Family last semester in school. When we began the segment on punishment, we talked about spanking. The professor asked those in the class who had been spanked or hit as children to raise their hands.
I expected maybe 20 out of the 200 students in my class to raise their hands. But- about 70% of the students in my class raised their hands.
I was shocked! Totally blown away!
My school is a CUNY school, run by the city, so the student body is mainly middle to lower-middle-class and an even mix of ethnicities.
As a white, upper-middle-class girl living in New York City I had been completely sheltered from the fact that physical punishment is still very common. It had never occurred to me that so many parents used it! And then! People started raising their hands to defend their parents! Just like many people are doing in this thread.
The professor stated that corporal punishment is NEVER okay, and I agree. But so many people in the class thought it was okay and said they might do the same to their children. So it isn't even entirely generational, kids my age were saying that they might spank or hit their children too!
Only one or two people raised their hands to say that what their parents had done was wrong.
Spanking and hitting is never okay. Not with guidelines or warnings. Not once a month and not one a year. Hitting a child is wrong.
If a child is so out of hand that the ONLY way to restrain them is to physically hurt them, then the child has serious psychological problem that needs to be addressed with the help of a medical professional.
@swingintolstoy: I guess I think of a "spank" as different from a "hit." My mother, for example, hit me. She also occasionally used tools for the hit, like hangers or spoons or whatever--until I was in high school. The hanger incident, which is now hilarious in that way that makes me want to cry, happened when I was 14 I think. Her punishment didn't work, because she hit me because she was angry and depressed.
My father spanked. I think he probably only did it once to me, but I was the good middle child. My brother and sister pushed limits and would get spanked. Not because my father was angry, or because my siblings had psychological problems (well, my brother does, but not my sister). It was because when we did something that was dangerous--turning on the stove, running with knives, stuff like that--he needed a way to distinguish mild admonishments like "don't pick your nose. No seriously. Stop. Stop picking your nose right now young lady! [serious conversation about germs and manners]" from serious things like "Do. Not. Run. With. Knifes." and "Towels are flammable and if you put one on the stove and turn it on you will burn the motherfucking house down!" So he would swat us on the butt. It hurt, but mostly because it was a sign that what we did was really bad and they were really mad about it and better not ever do that again. We used to play an elaborate game with my uncle's pick up truck that we were always getting in trouble for. Don't do it, you're grounded, etc. Well one day my sister almost got crushed by the pick up truck, like the pick up truck rolling over her chest and neck. Certain death. We stopped playing the game after that, because we realized why our parents didn't want us playing it. But if we had gotten spanked, we would have realized that there was a difference between dangerous-like-get-dead and dangerous-like-candy-is-bad-for-you.
But, like when I throw my dog on the ground and growl in his face when he misbehaves, it's only appropriate to do when you are in complete control of your emotions. Any inflection of anger or frustration or fear changes the whole tenor of the exchange, and in my opinion makes it abuse.
@swingintolstoy: So you took a class that told you spanking is wrong. In that class, you acknowledged that there were soccio/culture differences between yourself and 70% of the population. Then you proceed to completely disregard those differences and that population by trumpeting your upbringing over theirs.
Methinks your missing a point here about respect for others' lifestyle choices.
@sympathyforthebasementcat: Yeah, as I said below, I was raised by a child psychologist in NY and I got a pop on the butt every once in awhile, when I was overly defiant and vicious. I don't remember pain, I don't think I was abused by any stretch of the imagination, and I wouldn't rule out a spanking as a possibility if I were to have a child. It doesn't work for every child in every situation, but I don't think it's entirely ineffective for some children and parents, in certain situations. It's one tool, a last resort, in your arsenal of discipline. Used judiciously by a calm, reasonable parent, I think it can be ok. A time out would have done shit for me. How do you give a time out to a kid who just wants to hang alone in their room all day? Precocious and independent 6 year old is cruel and after 3 or 4 chances acts in an inappropriate way? Having to walk over and lay down on someones lap for one firm hit is kind of humiliating and awakening (you KNEW the consequences) and even if you walk away with no sense of pain (as it should be), you learned the consequences of your actions. If the threat of a spanking is the adult equivalent of, "you really fucked up big time" and it happens rarely and you don't dread or even think about it as a real threat, the spanking is more clinical than anything, I don't see any great damage done.
And I certainly was not spanked because I was unable to be restrained in any way or had problems. Nor my sibling. That is ridiculous.
@embarcadero13: Jesus when will you people learn that white upper middle class people from the east coast of America understand things like "truth" and "reality" and "right" and "wrong" unlike the rest of us poor fuck ups?! I mean, god, if they weren't smarter and better and more chosen by god than the rest of the world, they wouldn't be the creators and controllers of the dominant ideology, now would they? Evolutionary sociology, man!
I was spanked - back in the dark ages I didn't know anyone who wasn't. My mother was also the master of the quick face-slap and used it wisely. I did know a couple of kids who were beaten instead of spanked and there is a clear line between the two.
When I was an adult my parents told me they had clear rules for punishments. I think they are golden and full of wisdom:
1. Never, ever administer ANY punishment when you are angry. Give the kid a time out until you can chill out.
2. Never administer a punishment in public. If you have to do something, take them to the quietest place possible well away from everyone. Punishment in front of others is a humiliation that is damaging.
3. Always set limits and give warnings. When you give a warning, be prepared to take action if the behavior is repeated. Warnings without action just teaches a child that your words carry no weight.
4. Always explain why you had to administer a spanking. "I told you not to do that, you did it anyway, I gave you a warning and you still would not listen and now this is the consequence".
5. After the punishment we were always told that we were punished because we were loved and our parents cared about our behavior and our future. I understood that concept even at age 5. My parents always remained with us until we stopped crying and felt better. They never spanked and left us alone after.
6. When spanking or swatting a child because they have acted violently towards another, the talk should center around "This hurts. Why did you want to hurt Tommy? There is no reason to hurt another and I need to show you how much this hurts". This was the only method that managed to break my sister of her biting habit - my mother actually had to bite her in return to get her to realize what she was doing.
My parents are not college-educated. They spent their lives as rural, blue-collar people who came from farming families. They certainly have never read any books on child development or psychology. Sometimes I'm amazed they managed to figure this out.
If only everyone were brought up to believe that physical violence towards another person was NEVER acceptable, no matter what you perceived that they had done wrong, then the world would be a helluva lot nicer place, and I can't help but feel that corporal punishment for children goes a very long way against that, as it suggests that a physical reaction is sometimes justified.
@NellMood: I also agree. It seems, from reading comments here, that the best thing that can be said for spanking is, "Well, it didn't hurt ME." Frankly, I don't see the point. You need to set limits on your child's behavior. Fine. That's understood. You need to teach your child that there are consequences to actions. That's also understood. What I don't understand is where the need for violence comes into it.
@Valkyrie607: Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of comments along the lines of, "I was spanked, but it was because I threw a temper tantrum so I deserved it." I just can't agree with that. Yes, a misbehaving child deserves discipline, but discipline does not have to come in the form of hitting.
I was spanked, and it worked for me. My father did the spankings, my mother did the swattings (which was two to three swats versus one).
There were times I thought it was over the line, but other times, it was fine. There was a system:
1. Warnings. "You're doing X and if you don't stop, you will be in trouble."
2. Punishment. "I warned you that if you kept doing X, you'd be in trouble. Now you must do Y. If you do it again, you will get a spanking."
3. Spanking/swatting. "You did X after a warning and punishment, so you will be spanked."
After that, we did not do X any more. I got spankings mostly for lying, and my parents stopped after we were about 7. After that, they said that we were old enough to understand adultish logic and that spankings were not necessary any more. Also, I think they're really creepy after a certain age, but I couldn't put my finger on when.
"Now, obviously, watching a child be dealt with with unnecessary harshness is horrible, and seeing the sweetness getting yelled or hit out of a blameless child by an angry parent is one of the most upsetting sights in the world." If this isn't sarcasm then it is a pretty over the top statement that reeks of being judgemental. It is a spanking not a caning in the town square. I get that those who haven't been spanked will never realize that a simple spanking is not a red alarm fire. I understand that some parents who spank have increased to abuse. But most spankers have only used the method occassionaly and as a back up to demonstrate what "or else" means or when all other measures fail and dire consequences are called for (read a kid gets spanked maybe a dozen times in childhood). I mean really "seeing the sweetness getting yelled at or hit out..." I have never seen a sweet child get spanked or yelled at. A bad one maybe, but not a sweet one. A touch dramatic.
@ZemarSea Urchin: Only bad kids get spanked? Wouldn't any kid who displays bad behavior get spanked? Sweet nice kids can also misbehave. Most children aren't "bad or "good" - they are children who sometimes misbehave.
@ZemarSea Urchin: i was spanked for the slightest perceived disobedience, on a daily basis, and it fucked me up pretty good. Same thing with my best friend who was spanked daily until she was well into her teens. I don't think Sadie was referring to the responsible type of spanking you are referring to, spanking with context. I was spanked with a wooden spoon if I left a jelly jar on the counter, a shoe in the living room, for not liking a certain food, etc. I was even spanked for not making it to the toilet to puke when I had the stomach flu. This is the type of gratuitous spanking that Sadie is clearly referring to and it happens way more often than the responsible spanking you are talking about. I don't think Sadie is in any way using hyperbole to describe the reality of far too many children who live in the gray zone between not quite spanking and not quite abuse. I'd prefer we outlaw all spanking in order to protect the vast majority of spanking victims. If a parent is mature enough to spank with context, then they are surely capable of effective punishment without violence.
I was spanked, but my parents say they regret that decision now. I don't think it affected me either way, though I'm certainly no advocate of the practice.
@My Jen Could Paint That: Also, I remember corporal punishment being a common occurrence in my elementary school growing up in George (I live in California now). Now that's some disturbing shit to see on your way to class. Anyone know if that's still legal?
@colormeroutine: I suppose in terms of "working," it definitely had an effect on the other kids. It was traumatizing to see someone getting beaten in the hallways with a wooden paddle, and I'm sure it was equally traumatizing for those being beaten, both in terms of physical pain and embarrassment at being forced into such a degraded position in front of one's peers.
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It teaches all sorts of lessons which are very destructive, and which more than weigh out the temporary good of "Well at least little Bobby stopped trying to play with the stove."
Spanking teaches children that violence and love are interrelated. It teaches that suffering and the body should be ignored, not felt. Spanking children teaches them that they are not worthy of the respect of adults. Spanking provokes anger and desire for revenge, which must be repressed; children learn how to repress their feelings this way. Since many parents spank in the throes of anger, but insist their spanking is educational, children learn to accept deceptive arguments from authority figures.
I feel very strongly about this.
10/14/09
Other people have made this comment too, but even though I was only spanked very rarely, I think that just the thought of getting spanked and/or being threatened with belts definitely made me behave a number of times when nothing else would have made me do so--I was a devious and inventive child. So, when used sparingly, I think it had even more power. I'm sure you could say that threats are not the best way to keep your child in line, but I don't think it had any detrimental effects on me. I have a very loving and respectful relationship with my parents, and I've never regretted the fact that they spanked me.
Then again, I think I weaseled my way out of that power dynamic a bit earlier than most, because when I was 8 or 10 or so, I realized that my dad was (and is) a fat old man and that I could run faster than him! No more spankings happened after that, but the idea of grounding was introduced soon after...
10/14/09
My mom was very emotionally abusive with no social skills,and also spanked us- which escalated to other nasty things like slapping and withholding and leaving and verbal abuse. Im still viscerally afraid of her, and still sometimes have nightmares about screaming and not being heard. Meanwhile she's starved for intimacy and affection from all of her children because we still fear her, just when she wishes for it the most. I just don't think fear is a suitable motivator for anything, its absolutely the wrong paradigm to use in life. I teach school now, and I refuse to motivate my students through fear. It works wonders for them and they blossom and get inspired...
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My mom still vividly remembers the threatening length of rubber hose hanging from a peg in her Kindergarten class. She was never hit with it, but dreaded the possibility, even though she was a meek, quiet child--an unlikely candidate for the hose. However, she didn't want her children to live with that unspoken possibility hanging over their heads, so we knew from early on that WE Were Not a Spanking Household and even as a child, I made judgments on parents who kept homes that were Spanking Households.
Despite my judgment at the time of Households that Spank (and a lingering judgment, I admit), for all my mother's good intentions, we probably endured a lot more abuse than most kids who get spanked...my dad had serious rage problems and the sound of his screaming, either at you, about you, or about or to my mom or brother was a constant menace. I would have rather been spanked.
10/14/09
Ditto. Given the choice of 3-5 swats on my plump backside and getting screamed at and cursed out and given the silent treatment, you know don't have to guess what I'd choose as punishment. Seriously, the pain a kids butt receives from being smacked with a bare hand only lasts moments...in fact the hand probably will hurt more than the tushie afterwards. The pain of having an overworked, angry, depressed, and possibly drunken parent take their life-long disappointments out on you verbally will last a lifetime.
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10/13/09
The outcry to the law change was astounding. People didn't realise that the law wasn't forbidding a light smack occasionally, it was safeguarding children against abuse. But people want their right to smack their kids.
The same outrage was prevalent when the law was changed to men couldn't legally beat their wives. Just because something shocks people because of their backgrounds and mores, does not mean it shouldn't be done.
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One day my mom and dad sat down and made a new rule for me. I wasn't to be spanked. My dad made it because he said it was useless to try and get me to conform to a parenting style that obviously didn't work for me. He said he also didn't like the idea of having to hit me harder and harder to get me to calm down and that if they didn't try something else he was afraid one day he'd go too far.
So they decided to ignore me when I threw a tantrum. If I got out of hand I was put in my parents' room (where there were no toys) and had to stay there until I could calm myself down.
I think spanking can be a reliable disciplinary tool for a lot of parents, but they also need to realize that the punishment may not be appropriate for every child. If a child's behavior doesn't change for the positive, then you need to think of a different approach. Flexibility is the best way to raise a child.
10/13/09
The methods have to be adapted to the individual
10/13/09
I took Psychology of the Family last semester in school. When we began the segment on punishment, we talked about spanking. The professor asked those in the class who had been spanked or hit as children to raise their hands.
I expected maybe 20 out of the 200 students in my class to raise their hands. But- about 70% of the students in my class raised their hands.
I was shocked! Totally blown away!
My school is a CUNY school, run by the city, so the student body is mainly middle to lower-middle-class and an even mix of ethnicities.
As a white, upper-middle-class girl living in New York City I had been completely sheltered from the fact that physical punishment is still very common. It had never occurred to me that so many parents used it! And then! People started raising their hands to defend their parents! Just like many people are doing in this thread.
The professor stated that corporal punishment is NEVER okay, and I agree. But so many people in the class thought it was okay and said they might do the same to their children. So it isn't even entirely generational, kids my age were saying that they might spank or hit their children too!
Only one or two people raised their hands to say that what their parents had done was wrong.
Spanking and hitting is never okay. Not with guidelines or warnings. Not once a month and not one a year. Hitting a child is wrong.
If a child is so out of hand that the ONLY way to restrain them is to physically hurt them, then the child has serious psychological problem that needs to be addressed with the help of a medical professional.
10/13/09
My father spanked. I think he probably only did it once to me, but I was the good middle child. My brother and sister pushed limits and would get spanked. Not because my father was angry, or because my siblings had psychological problems (well, my brother does, but not my sister). It was because when we did something that was dangerous--turning on the stove, running with knives, stuff like that--he needed a way to distinguish mild admonishments like "don't pick your nose. No seriously. Stop. Stop picking your nose right now young lady! [serious conversation about germs and manners]" from serious things like "Do. Not. Run. With. Knifes." and "Towels are flammable and if you put one on the stove and turn it on you will burn the motherfucking house down!" So he would swat us on the butt. It hurt, but mostly because it was a sign that what we did was really bad and they were really mad about it and better not ever do that again. We used to play an elaborate game with my uncle's pick up truck that we were always getting in trouble for. Don't do it, you're grounded, etc. Well one day my sister almost got crushed by the pick up truck, like the pick up truck rolling over her chest and neck. Certain death. We stopped playing the game after that, because we realized why our parents didn't want us playing it. But if we had gotten spanked, we would have realized that there was a difference between dangerous-like-get-dead and dangerous-like-candy-is-bad-for-you.
But, like when I throw my dog on the ground and growl in his face when he misbehaves, it's only appropriate to do when you are in complete control of your emotions. Any inflection of anger or frustration or fear changes the whole tenor of the exchange, and in my opinion makes it abuse.
10/13/09
Methinks your missing a point here about respect for others' lifestyle choices.
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And I certainly was not spanked because I was unable to be restrained in any way or had problems. Nor my sibling. That is ridiculous.
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When I was an adult my parents told me they had clear rules for punishments. I think they are golden and full of wisdom:
1. Never, ever administer ANY punishment when you are angry. Give the kid a time out until you can chill out.
2. Never administer a punishment in public. If you have to do something, take them to the quietest place possible well away from everyone. Punishment in front of others is a humiliation that is damaging.
3. Always set limits and give warnings. When you give a warning, be prepared to take action if the behavior is repeated. Warnings without action just teaches a child that your words carry no weight.
4. Always explain why you had to administer a spanking. "I told you not to do that, you did it anyway, I gave you a warning and you still would not listen and now this is the consequence".
5. After the punishment we were always told that we were punished because we were loved and our parents cared about our behavior and our future. I understood that concept even at age 5. My parents always remained with us until we stopped crying and felt better. They never spanked and left us alone after.
6. When spanking or swatting a child because they have acted violently towards another, the talk should center around "This hurts. Why did you want to hurt Tommy? There is no reason to hurt another and I need to show you how much this hurts". This was the only method that managed to break my sister of her biting habit - my mother actually had to bite her in return to get her to realize what she was doing.
My parents are not college-educated. They spent their lives as rural, blue-collar people who came from farming families. They certainly have never read any books on child development or psychology. Sometimes I'm amazed they managed to figure this out.
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There were times I thought it was over the line, but other times, it was fine. There was a system:
1. Warnings. "You're doing X and if you don't stop, you will be in trouble."
2. Punishment. "I warned you that if you kept doing X, you'd be in trouble. Now you must do Y. If you do it again, you will get a spanking."
3. Spanking/swatting. "You did X after a warning and punishment, so you will be spanked."
After that, we did not do X any more. I got spankings mostly for lying, and my parents stopped after we were about 7. After that, they said that we were old enough to understand adultish logic and that spankings were not necessary any more. Also, I think they're really creepy after a certain age, but I couldn't put my finger on when.
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