I read a "Fat is a Feminist Issue" a long time ago. It was not a non-diet diet book. As I recall, it argued that women's obsession with body size was one way that society exerted control over women.
But it didn't say that being unhealthily obese was a good thing, either.
I still don't understand the conflation of unhealthy weight gain with self-acceptance and female liberation.
I haven't read the first book, but I have read Unbearable Weight...and I really can't see how it's a diet book pretending not to be. Its a breakdown of the body rhetoric we're faced with on a daily basis, from difference perspectives, covering everything from ED's to race, to the "real women have curves" idea.
If anything Orbach is a proponent of body acceptance in any and all forms. And what she tries to get at is that we're being sold "health" but what we're really being taught is self-hatred and obsessive body, weight, and food issues.
I haven't read Fat Is a Feminist Issue, so I won't weigh in on whether or not Corrina's complaints are valid . . . but I do think it's problematic, at the very least, to critique a book published in 1978 in the same way you would critique one that's being published today. Of course some of its arguments are outdated--it was published more than 30 years ago! The way women related to their bodies, and are expected to relate to their bodies has vastly changed since then. Bodies in general have vastly changed since then! The book is a product of its time, and of course some of the views and arguments that Orbach uses aren't going to be relevant to newer, contemporary movements and ideas.
@nora charles: But Tormley also talks about Bodies by Orbach, which, if my memory of NPR interviews is at all accurate, was published sometime last fall. Tormley clearly states that she has the same problems with that book that she has with FIFI because Orbach hasn't changed anything about her theories but only some of her language. I haven't read either book, so I don't have an opinion on either the original works or on Tormley's criticism of them, but she is responding to newly published work as well as re-released and updated work by Orbach.
@slowpoke.r: Right--and I think that the criticism of Bodies is appropriate for that reason. (I wouldn't consider a re-issue of Fat Is a Feminist Issue with a new foreword "an updated work" though.) Her arguments would make much more sense to me if she primarily addressed the most recent works, rather than addressing the earliest work and just tacking on an addendum that the most recent one is "the same."
I read a really interesting piece on the fat acceptance movement recently (it came out a bit ago) dealing with the hostility of people inside the movement toward fat people with eating disorders. The critique in the linked article made me think of it. http://bitchmagazine.org/article/big-trouble
@thegogglesdonothing:
I read that article too, and definitely found some truth in it. Obviously not every fat woman has an eating disorder (just as not every thin woman has an eating disorder!), but to shove them under the rug and pretend like they don't exist is doing a huge disservice both to the fat acceptance movement and to the women with eating disorders that they ignore.
@thegogglesdonothing: What I don't like about this article is that it seems to play into most people's biggest fear about the FA movement; that we want everyone to be fat and love it.
That is not the case. We want anyone who is fat to be treated the same as someone who is skinny. That's it. I think that there is enough trouble to get the media to report on FA at all that articles like this, while important in illuminating internal issues that the FA movement has to work on, do more harm than good.
oh man, I'm a week into ED recovery and I am fighting to eat at least 1500 calories a day. It's really hard. Reading stuff like this, where it's a struggle or a "crash diet" for someone to stay under 1500 calories is so foreign to me. What in the world do people eat that this is a problem?
@Beets.Go.On: I wish you all the best. My dear friend is temporarily staying with me and I've heard him wretching for ages unmasked by the sound of the running tap. We've talked about eating issues before, but not ED. I want to speak to him, but I also want to be prepared to help him find help. If you have any advice for me, I'd appreciate it.
I've never crash dieted, but recently I've had a 25 lb. loss when I went on Paxil. To make a long story short, I've had some heart problems that the doctor decided was a combination of stress and exhaustion and Paxil was the least-invasive treatment. He's guessing I'll lose about another 15 before I settle in and begin to feel well again.
I'm pretty sure I've been consuming far less than 1200 calories a day but I've also been sleeping 15-18 hours daily and you don't eat when you sleep. I think 1200 was probably what I was consuming before the Paxil but again I've never counted. I've also learned that stress plus lack of sleep messes with your metabolism and mine is now kicking up a couple of notches with the medication and rest.
I was happy with my weight before even though I knew I could stand to lose a few pounds but I've never been one to diss myself if I looked a bit 'pudgy'. I am who I am.
The thing that distresses me the most is my brain is a bit slow on Paxil and it has sucked the snark right out of me when I'm usually quick on the draw, hence my lack of comments here for the past month.
I guess the point of this rambling, Paxil-influenced post is that we should all enjoy life and not be so consumed with little issues like weight. Your health is much more important and as long as you're healthy, who cares?
I really try to avoid making "my weight," whatever it is, a thing of great significance in my life. So, for this reason, I will not discuss the topic of dieting in public in real life. I will talk food, endlessly, because I love food, including healthy food, and I will talk nutrition, and vegetarianism, and sustainable eating, and recipe sharing. I will talk about exercise, the yoga I've tried or the awesome bike ride I took this weekend, and when someone inevitably brings up "how much cycling you actually have to do to really lose weight," I will roll my eyes and contest that SOME activity is better that none, and that not everything has to be a competition to lose weight or set a fast time. And my specific weight matters approximately 0% in my field of study (really, in my life at all), so I also dodge real or imagined comments on weight gain or loss, refusing to acknowledge them and talking about the concept of "healthy living" instead. Why should that number matter to anyone but me? In short, I'm trying to live life in a way that emphasizes the things I enjoy for their own sake, and escape the tendency to negatively compare myself to others, or shame myself for anything to with my weight. We are all human. We all need to eat. We come in all shapes and sizes. There is far more to life than being fat or thin.
If I went from my current caloric intake (right around 2000) to 1200 calories a day I would be starving. I'm cutting back slowly and increasing exercise, but I've done the rapid cut-off before and it only made my body flip out.
The only time I took off a significant amount of weight was on the Atkins diet, but I've put it all back on and then some. Sad thing is, I wasn't even overweight when I went on it, but I am now.
Here's what really disturbs me, personally. I have many thoughts about this, things that rattle around in my brain and experiences I've personally had, and yet I find there is nothing I feel comfortable talking about when it comes to women, weight, and self-image, because it seems that there is no way to discuss these things in our current society without opening the enormous baggage the subjects carry. We're at a point where we almost don't even have a common language, and worse yet, the language we do use winds up (I believe) almost always hurting more people that helping -- not here, not on Jezebel, because though these posts inevitably have a few threads that devolve into deep unpleasantness, for the most part, the people here are part of the search for a common, healthy, respectful, HUMAN language. But generally, out in the world, which I find to be pretty un-Jezebel-like on these issues? Not so much.
I hope my daughter will be able to talk about her body without the very words she uses proving to be a minefield to herself and the women around her.
I hope all our daughters will be able to love their bodies.
@Eleanor Ramilly: See, this is what I mean (see the comment immediately after yours).
In a better world, we would be able to talk about these things. When my now-husband and I put on a lot of what I call happy fat -- you know, you're falling in love and not moving more than three feet from the bed, unless it's to get special foods with which to treat each other, and then get back into bed -- we each wound up a lot rounder than we wanted to be. We both dieted -- my one and only diet in my entire life -- because well, happy fat is fun to achieve, but not always fun to carry around. And yet, I don't even like to mention that I EVER went on a diet, that I EVER restricted calories, etc, etc, because it feels to me like in so doing, I'm supporting our fucked up way of looking at womens bodies.
But surely, if the world were a wiser place, it wouldn't be that loaded, right? Surely a person could just describe it, as an un-value-loaded story from one's past, while she tucked into a slice of chocolate cake? I hate that we're like this.
@ellaesther: I just don't think Jezebel is an appropriate place to discuss your calorie intake and diet. There are plenty of other websites to do that.
@Eleanor Ramilly: THANK YOU. i like coming here to hear people be like "FUCK THIS NOISE" and today it seems all the health food junkie gym rats came out to play.
also i thought it was pretty common knowledge around here that a lot of readers have struggled with/do struggle with eating disorders and issues and it's kind of a straight up dick move to talk triggers in the comments.
good thing i had already ran and gotten some veggie pizza by the slice for my lunch. eating cheese and loving it, SO SUCK IT diets!
@awinoforever: Did you just tell us about your workout and lunch while condemning other commenters as "health food junkie gym rats" for doing the same?
@Eleanor Ramilly: Thank you - I'd re-heart you if I could. Instead of a discussion on crash dieting, the pressure to look a certain way, the medical community's support and encouragement of diets that may have seemed outlandish a couple of years ago, etc, we're stuck talking about our favorite diet tips and snarking at people who go to the gym but don't somehow measure up.
And to the commenter above - no one thinks these posts will send someone back into an ED, but they can ruin a person's day or make it harder. Jezebel is supposed to be a safe-place when it comes to body issues, hence the rule against body-snarking. Please do not compare this consideration for others to censorship. It's spurious.
@Ailanthus-altissima: You said this about ten times better than I did, what with my sassy and not-exactly-helpful comment.
The defense here seems to be "but it was a post about calorie intake, that's why we are discussing/stating ours!" I didn't think that was the point of the post at all, but I suppose the way one reads articles like this is relative, yes?
why post a story about the avg calorie intake and how crash diets ....if you don't want people to give personal anectodets on what works for them, and what their physican had advise to them in the past.
I can understand where many of the comments are comming from but to bash people b/c they my cause someone to be anorexic and to say that one can't talk about fitness b/c this site is for safe body image is just ridiculous.
@texanbelle: I will venture to say that there is no way that this post was written with the intention that readers would come on and post their calorie counts and work outs.
@texanbelle: I know it's late and no one will read this, but I had to clarify because I think you misunderstood my position.
I had a problem with the fact that awinoforever seemed to be agreeing with Eleanor's excellent comment yet felt the need to make sure we knew exactly what she was personally doing with her calories in and out while simultaneously criticizing other commenters for making similar comments. It seemed hypocritical to me and her language choice was unfortunate. However, I do agree with her overall opinion and I was perhaps being oversensitive; we all need to share personal details in order to communicate, and she didn't resort to numbers, at least.
I don't think anyone is being "bashed" here; what people requested is that this post not devolve into a numbers-off because that's not what this article is about. What we should/ could be discussing is whether self-enforced temporary starvation is dangerous for us or not, and if it is why, and whether it's a reasonable tool for women to use, and why we feel like we need weight loss tools in the first place. But instead it became about how many calories are the "right" amount and what is the "right" way to exercise, both of which are completely unnecessary to the discussion as well as largely subjective.
This site is not about trading tips on exercise or needlepoint or car repair or cooking- there are a million of those already out there- but rather a space where we can talk about our culture and how it affects and is affected by women.
Yeah, I'll stick to my slow but steady WW plan where I get to eat cake and drink beer occasionally. I don't have the discipline for intense calorie counting.
07/11/09
But it didn't say that being unhealthily obese was a good thing, either.
I still don't understand the conflation of unhealthy weight gain with self-acceptance and female liberation.
(Ducking now).
07/10/09
If anything Orbach is a proponent of body acceptance in any and all forms. And what she tries to get at is that we're being sold "health" but what we're really being taught is self-hatred and obsessive body, weight, and food issues.
07/10/09
07/10/09
07/10/09
07/10/09
07/10/09
I read that article too, and definitely found some truth in it. Obviously not every fat woman has an eating disorder (just as not every thin woman has an eating disorder!), but to shove them under the rug and pretend like they don't exist is doing a huge disservice both to the fat acceptance movement and to the women with eating disorders that they ignore.
07/10/09
That is not the case. We want anyone who is fat to be treated the same as someone who is skinny. That's it. I think that there is enough trouble to get the media to report on FA at all that articles like this, while important in illuminating internal issues that the FA movement has to work on, do more harm than good.
07/10/09
07/10/09
07/10/09
06/08/09
I am such a bad person.
06/08/09
06/08/09
06/08/09
06/08/09
06/08/09
06/08/09
06/08/09
I'm pretty sure I've been consuming far less than 1200 calories a day but I've also been sleeping 15-18 hours daily and you don't eat when you sleep. I think 1200 was probably what I was consuming before the Paxil but again I've never counted. I've also learned that stress plus lack of sleep messes with your metabolism and mine is now kicking up a couple of notches with the medication and rest.
I was happy with my weight before even though I knew I could stand to lose a few pounds but I've never been one to diss myself if I looked a bit 'pudgy'. I am who I am.
The thing that distresses me the most is my brain is a bit slow on Paxil and it has sucked the snark right out of me when I'm usually quick on the draw, hence my lack of comments here for the past month.
I guess the point of this rambling, Paxil-influenced post is that we should all enjoy life and not be so consumed with little issues like weight. Your health is much more important and as long as you're healthy, who cares?
06/08/09
06/08/09
AMEN.
06/08/09
06/08/09
06/08/09
06/08/09
The only time I took off a significant amount of weight was on the Atkins diet, but I've put it all back on and then some. Sad thing is, I wasn't even overweight when I went on it, but I am now.
06/08/09
I hope my daughter will be able to talk about her body without the very words she uses proving to be a minefield to herself and the women around her.
I hope all our daughters will be able to love their bodies.
06/08/09
06/08/09
06/08/09
In a better world, we would be able to talk about these things. When my now-husband and I put on a lot of what I call happy fat -- you know, you're falling in love and not moving more than three feet from the bed, unless it's to get special foods with which to treat each other, and then get back into bed -- we each wound up a lot rounder than we wanted to be. We both dieted -- my one and only diet in my entire life -- because well, happy fat is fun to achieve, but not always fun to carry around. And yet, I don't even like to mention that I EVER went on a diet, that I EVER restricted calories, etc, etc, because it feels to me like in so doing, I'm supporting our fucked up way of looking at womens bodies.
But surely, if the world were a wiser place, it wouldn't be that loaded, right? Surely a person could just describe it, as an un-value-loaded story from one's past, while she tucked into a slice of chocolate cake? I hate that we're like this.
06/08/09
06/08/09
06/08/09
also i thought it was pretty common knowledge around here that a lot of readers have struggled with/do struggle with eating disorders and issues and it's kind of a straight up dick move to talk triggers in the comments.
good thing i had already ran and gotten some veggie pizza by the slice for my lunch. eating cheese and loving it, SO SUCK IT diets!
06/08/09
06/08/09
06/08/09
And to the commenter above - no one thinks these posts will send someone back into an ED, but they can ruin a person's day or make it harder. Jezebel is supposed to be a safe-place when it comes to body issues, hence the rule against body-snarking. Please do not compare this consideration for others to censorship. It's spurious.
06/08/09
The defense here seems to be "but it was a post about calorie intake, that's why we are discussing/stating ours!" I didn't think that was the point of the post at all, but I suppose the way one reads articles like this is relative, yes?
06/08/09
why post a story about the avg calorie intake and how crash diets ....if you don't want people to give personal anectodets on what works for them, and what their physican had advise to them in the past.
06/08/09
I don't understand that comment either.
I can understand where many of the comments are comming from but to bash people b/c they my cause someone to be anorexic and to say that one can't talk about fitness b/c this site is for safe body image is just ridiculous.
06/08/09
06/08/09
06/08/09
I had a problem with the fact that awinoforever seemed to be agreeing with Eleanor's excellent comment yet felt the need to make sure we knew exactly what she was personally doing with her calories in and out while simultaneously criticizing other commenters for making similar comments. It seemed hypocritical to me and her language choice was unfortunate. However, I do agree with her overall opinion and I was perhaps being oversensitive; we all need to share personal details in order to communicate, and she didn't resort to numbers, at least.
I don't think anyone is being "bashed" here; what people requested is that this post not devolve into a numbers-off because that's not what this article is about. What we should/ could be discussing is whether self-enforced temporary starvation is dangerous for us or not, and if it is why, and whether it's a reasonable tool for women to use, and why we feel like we need weight loss tools in the first place. But instead it became about how many calories are the "right" amount and what is the "right" way to exercise, both of which are completely unnecessary to the discussion as well as largely subjective.
This site is not about trading tips on exercise or needlepoint or car repair or cooking- there are a million of those already out there- but rather a space where we can talk about our culture and how it affects and is affected by women.
06/08/09
06/08/09