stoptrafficking

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bowleserised
09/16/09

In reply to Missing Persons
It also says that they might not have wanted help.

The UK debate seems to be polarised by Laura Agustin ("it's all women with free agency, coming here to work by choice") and the Poppy Project ("they're all trafficked and abused"). Sex workers, and especially immigrant sex workers, just aren't a homogeneous population.
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sanibelly
09/16/09

@bowleserised: So they're not trafficked at all? I thought that trafficked meant kidnapped and forced into the sex trade.
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bowleserised
09/16/09

@sanibelly: That's not what I said. They're not ALL trafficked. Some of the women "liberated" by Operation Pentameter weren't trafficked. Some of them were.

I was presenting two sides of the UK debate. Here's a review of Agustin's book: [www.newstatesman.com]

And here's the Poppy Project:
[www.eaves4women.co.uk]

There have been problems in the UK with campaigners claiming that most of the women in the UK sex trade are trafficked, when what they mean is that 75% of the women working in London are from overseas. Which doesn't necessarily mean trafficked. And it's just London, not the UK (countrywide, working girls are more likely to be British).
But the statistics are always problematic with sex work. And yes, women do get kidnapped and forced into sex work:
[www.metro.co.uk]

Some of the women kidnapped and forced into sex work are even British.
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Edited by bowleserised at 09/16/09 11:15 AM bowleserised was starred bowleserised was unstarred

sanibelly
09/16/09

@bowleserised: Thank you for the clarification. I know that's not what you said, which is why I asked that question. And thank you for admitting, however begrudgingly, that there are women who are forced into sex work. I know we like to think it's all those poor women who innocently chose sex work, but can we please put some urgency into locating and helping (and stopping, in the first place) women who are forced into this against their will? I can't think of anything more disgusting or horrifying and my heart goes out to those women who we shrug our shoulders at.
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bowleserised
09/16/09

@sanibelly: I didn't admit it "begrudgingly" at all. That "slaughterhouse" case is horrific.
I've been working on and off for research on the subject for months now, using a variety of sources and talking to a lot of people involved. I just finished reading an account of one British woman's experience of being trafficked into Amsterdam...
BUT the police are also using things like Pentameter against women who have made the choice to do sex work: [www.prostitutescollective.net]
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dahliacactus
06/02/09

In reply to Baby Girls On The Black Market
I've seen many articles on this generation of only children, many of whom are choosing to live child-free as they reach their 20's. The up thread comment about China will "eat itself" is dead on. I know there is alot of fear about China owning so much of our debt but I think the place is going to go the way of the USSR and cave in on itself eventually. The entire system just isn't sustainable.
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doodley is not amused
06/02/09

@dahliacactus: I'm not entirely sure that is true. The younger generation of Chinese is embracing capitalism in a way that the Soviets never had an opportunity to. While I think that the younger generation may toss out whatever remnants of Communism are left eventually, I am not sure that the country is going to implode and have to rebuild the way that the USSR did.
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honeybadger
06/02/09

In reply to Baby Girls On The Black Market
I can't put my finger on the responses to this post and how we view "China" with a Westernized notion and we continue to "other" it as savage and backward without knowing much of the context or experiencing the culture there.

I can't help being angry that though this story about kidnapping Chinese children is serious and problematic, that Jezebel readers would write off the entire country of China (the largest population of the world!) and make such large, sweeping generalizations about its infinitely multifarious societies and cultures through our narrow Western lens.

I thought we were more nuanced than that. Guess not.
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topsy
06/02/09

@honeybadger: Since I was raised 'Western' that's the only viewpoint I've got. I also am not acquainted with the entire country of China, since the government makes it sure I don't. What I do know of China is that it's an incredibly dangerous country that has no problem kidnapping (and possibly murdering) the head of a religion, (Where is the Panchen Lama?), selling it's own children for money and crushing any glimmer of dissent. Oh and flooding our stores with cheap shit made my slave labour. And now, kidnapping little girls, leaving families, who don't mind having female children, devastated. What's to like?
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SarahMC
06/02/09

@honeybadger: I've got to second topsy. Nobody has said they hate all Chinese people or anything like that. But "China" as a country fucking sucks and I hate it with a passion. Care to explain what nuance we might be missing when it comes to killing baby girls then kidnapping others?
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hortense
06/02/09

@topsy:

I'd caution everyone to make sweeping generalizations about the Chinese people in general. The government is one thing to attack, but the government does not represent the views of everyone.
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doodley is not amused
06/02/09

@SarahMC: ball-cutting cybersuccubus: Well, for one thing, it is not the Chinese people as a whole doing thse things. It is a criminal segment of the population exploiting a need that was generated by a short-sighted government policy.

Yes, the Chinese government has a lot to answer for, but the Chinese government =/= the Chinese people.

@topsy : International adoption, regardless of your apparent distate for it, is not the "selling" of a corrupt country's children for profit. Perhaps you ought to do some research on how many American children are adopted to non-American families, primarily to Europe. International adoption legitimately exists worldwide and is not inherently a sign of corruption.
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topsy
06/02/09

In reply to Baby Girls On The Black Market
Let me get this straight. Due to the One Child Rule, Chinese people were abandoning little girls. This became an economic boon because the government could then sell these girls to people who wanted to have a daughter as close to white as they could. Now China is going to have to buy little girls to marry all those wanted little boys, who (I've read) are known as the Spoilt Generation. Can't say I'm surprised since I saw China murdering its own young people on CNN many years ago.
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Mav
06/02/09

@topsy: *sighs* China has many problems. This is just one of the many big ones we're going to have to face in the coming years. A generation of boys with no girls to marry does not sound good.
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AnnoyingFemaleLeadVoiceover
06/02/09

In reply to Baby Girls On The Black Market
What's up with the the police seeming so indifferent (except to harass invested parents, tearing down posters)?
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Mama Penguino
06/02/09

In reply to Baby Girls On The Black Market
And so you know, Mr. P and I are more than likely going to have to remove our application to adopt a sister for Little P next year. We've been on the waiting list for years and given the slow rate of referrals (and getting slower by the minute), our best hope is an adoption date in late 2016, which will be impossible for everyone. Why, oh, why won't the Chinese government at least make sure some of its girls get to families who want to provide them with a life? And please, please do not reply by telling me how selfish I am that I won't adopt a 10-year-old boy with MS and Tourette's. I just can't go there today. Let me sit here miserably trying to tell myself that the girl who would have been Little P the Second will find a wonderful family.
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doodley is not amused
06/02/09

@Mama Penguino: Oh, Mama P. I am heartbroken for you. Hugs from here.
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Beat Girl
06/02/09

@Mama Penguino: I don't know what to say other than I wish for all the best for you and your family, and I truly hope these circumstances change.
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Mama Penguino
06/02/09

@doodley is not amused: Aw, thanks, doodley. This is a recent realization and it really hurts. We have a LID of March 20, 2007, and at the time, they told us it would be 12-14 months before our referral. We've already gone through re-fingerpriting, homestudy update, etc., after our first set expired and our next expiration date is in April 2010. Six months ago when I used the estimator calculator, it gave me a 2014 date, but yesterday's estimated date was 2016. Chinese adoption is absolutely not what it used to be. I've heard the White Swan sits all but empty.
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topsy
06/02/09

@Mm Pngn: 'm crs; rn't thr ny mrcn chldrn p fr dptn? Y knw, fr f Trtt's nd MS wh r jst s cpbl f pprctng 'wndrfl' fmly? nd f y cld hv chld, wld y rjct th chld f h/sh hd n f th psky prblms?
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Mama Penguino
06/02/09

@Beat Girl: Many thanks, Beat Girl. It truly means a lot to me.
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SarahMC
06/02/09

@Mama Penguino: (((Mama)))
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Mama Penguino
06/02/09

@topsy: I was going to ignore your comment, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you merely don't know about adoption and didn't mean to sound so rude. Topsy, Mr. P and I tried very hard for years to adopt domestically and trust me, we were not picky. For a lot of reasons, one of them being the fact we are Jews, believe it or not, the process didn't work for us and when I say "process," I mean it. We were ready, willing and able. And I cannot answer your final question because I would not -- even if I could and I don't know if I can -- have my own child.
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Mav
06/02/09

@Mama Penguino: Ugh, I'm really sorry to hear about China's redundant adoption policies are stopping both you from having another child and a child from having a loving family.

Sometimes it makes you want to headdesk.

Is it possible to try for another adoption through another country? One that might go faster? I don't know if you had specific reasons for going through China, I just thought of asking.

In any case, big hugs to you and Mr P and baby P. I hope things work out for the best.
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topsy
06/02/09

@Mama Penguino: Well thank you for that benefit because I WAS wondering about the whole process. I keep hearing that there are so many children in the States who are waiting for adoption and people are going to China; it's always good to find out from some one who has been through the process. I can't believe that the fact your are Jewish would even be an issue; that's so sad.

Good luck to you in your search for another Little P.
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hortense
06/02/09

@topsy: That is WAY out of line and highly inappropriate.
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Witchtit: Your low productivity advisor
06/02/09

@Mama Penguino: I feel for you Mama Penguino. We have been trying to have another mini-witchtit for years with sad, sad, results. I dont think I could face the delays and disappointments that seem to be attached to adoption. Biological disappointment at least I cant really blame on anyone...bureaucratic disappointments however makes me hate the human race. I will send a bit of positive energy to you and and the rest of your penguino family. way.
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HistoricUpstart
06/02/09

@Mama Penguino: I'm sorry that this is happening to you. We really want to adopt domestically in the next five to ten years, and your story of not being able to adopt from the US scares me. There are so many kids who need homes! It makes me nervous and sad to hear that the process is made so difficult.
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rocknrollunicorn
06/02/09

@Mama Penguino: @Witchtit: Your low productivity advisor: I am really sorry to hear this from both of you. Good luck, I hope you both have small miracles.

I have to point out, though, that "mini-witchtit" is like the best name for a kid EVER.
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morninggloria
06/02/09

@Mama Penguino: It always made me sad that before a family is granted an adopted child, they have to jump through all sizes and heights of hoops, but so so so many people have babies and keep them that end up being shitty parents.
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Mav
06/02/09

@Mama Penguino: After reading some of your replies I wanted to apologise if my comment seemed rude by asking so many questions.
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jeepgirl
06/02/09

@HistoricUpstart: Yes, the process here in the US is very long and difficult. I have learned that firsthand. International adoptions are getting that much more difficult as well. If I can help you answer any questions, don't hesitate. I could use all the good karma I can get!
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Mama Penguino
06/02/09

@HistoricUpstart: One thing we weren't really aware of at the time is how different adoption agencies really are; that is, some really suck and some are awesome, so it makes sense to shop around. Please send me a PM if you want to discuss! I'd love to talk!

@Mav: No way. You're more than fine. After being in the adoption community for all these years, it's pretty easy to tell when someone's honestly trying to help and when someone's being an a$$. Unfortunately, this is the end of the road for me and Mr. P.

To everyone else, THIS is why I love the Jezebel community. Thanks for the hugs, the love, and offers of sisterhood. All are accepted and reciprocated ten-fold. xxoo
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HistoricUpstart
06/02/09

@Mama Penguino and @jeepgirl: Thanks, ladies. I just PMd both of you!
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midwesternmom
06/02/09

@Mama Penguino: I am so sorry to hear this. You obviously have so much love to give, and the uncertainty of the unending wait must be overwhelming.

I am going to hug my son now, until he squirms away.
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DinaRonson : Elizabeth Cady Stanton
06/02/09

In reply to Baby Girls On The Black Market
Uh, didn't we all see this coming?

(Not the kidnap/baby bride part. The shortage of wimmenz part)

Simple math over pride would have made this startlingly obvious. See it ain't just our gov't that's been backass backward for years.
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BlondeGrlz
06/02/09

In reply to Baby Girls On The Black Market
In the Times article, the family who's daughter had been kidnapped were allowed to have anther baby because their first child was a girl. I don't know much about China's one-child-only laws but I do know enough about math to know that one boy and one girl equals two children. I can't decide if this is good (prevents infanticide, maybe selective abortions of girls) or bad (girl children don't even count as children).
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doodley is not amused
06/02/09

@BlondeGrlz: The "one child rule" is a bit of a misnomer.

In most parts of China (basically, as I understand it, outside of the large cities), if your first child is a girl, you are allowed to try again for a boy. It's not that girls don't count as children -- it's much more complicated than that. The biggest reason is that, traditionally, when a Chinese girl marries, she goes to her husband's household and becomes part of his family. They become the support system for the husband's parents. If you do not have a son, you fundamentally have no one to provide or care for you in your old age. Additionally, because much of China is rural, there is a belief that sons are necessary to work the farms.

Further, the population control rules do not apply to ethnic minorities in China and so you will hear about families with more than the mandated number of children in those communities.

Research indicates that many (if not most) of the girls in orphanages in China probably are second (or later) daughters, born when the family tried for a boy after initially having a girl.
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Beat Girl
06/02/09

In reply to Baby Girls On The Black Market
Oh Google ads, offering us an Asian mail order bride next to this article is the worst malfunction of your system I've yet seen.
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SarahMC
06/02/09

In reply to Baby Girls On The Black Market
See? Misogyny has consequences. Namely, more misogyny. :(
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YourScreenplaySucks
06/02/09

In reply to Baby Girls On The Black Market
Figures. One might imagine that a shortage of women would lead to increased social power for women (as it does for men when the situation is reversed) but it's quite the opposite - instead it seems to prompt a regression into treating women like chattel.
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HarpMadness
06/02/09

@Your Screenplay Sucks: Interesting point. I've never understood how it seems that no matter what the situation is, women end up getting the short end of the stick.
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so5minutesago
06/02/09

In reply to Baby Girls On The Black Market
But if you're kidnapped as a baby and raised with the boy you are supposed to marry, wouldn't that end up making you more like siblings?

I know, totally not the point of the story. But it seems like there are problems with this besides the obvious kidnapping & human trafficking = majorly wrong.
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PhillyLass
06/02/09

@so5minutesago: I was wondering the same thing. Though, if women are viewed as nothing more than instruments of procreation, maybe these baby girls won't be treated as true members of the family-- which might be an even worse fate.
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Rare Affinity
06/02/09

In reply to Baby Girls On The Black Market
Why don't the one child families adopt the female children in the Chinese orphanges rather than buying them from kidnappers?
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doodley is not amused
06/02/09

@Rare Affinity: Adopting in China is heavily regulated, involves a lot of red tape and is fairly expensive for the average Chinese family. Buying from the black market probably is cheaper and less regulated, so if you're in search of a child for nefarious purposes, it probably would provide many fewer obstacles. Additionally, if the purpose is to obtain brides for their sons, then adopting girls as family members would not solve that issue.

That said, domestic adoption is increasing in China, which is a wonderful development.
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pond-side-over
06/02/09

In reply to Baby Girls On The Black Market
Jesus Christ, don't these people have mothers? =(
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euterpe35
06/02/09

@pond-side-over: they had female humans who gave birth to them and slaved all their lives for them. they didn't have "mothers".
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Rooo sez BISH PLZ
06/02/09

@euterpe35: Female bots. They didn't rise to the level of humans. *shudder*
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bowleserised
01/13/09

In reply to Man Sells Daughter For Meat, Beer
Technically dowry = financial compensation taken by the bride into her new family, and bridewealth = financial compensation given by groom to the bride's family. Diff kinships systems. This was bridewealth, not dowry. At least it supposes that the woman is an asset and not a drain on the family finances...

/anthropology nerdery.
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bananaprincess
01/14/09

@bowleserised:
thank youI found that interesting.
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