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Hillary As Sec Of State: Some Call It The "Women's Spot"

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emilyanne
12/02/08

In reply to Hillary As Sec Of State: Some Call It The "Women's Spot"
Aaargh I'm sorry to have missed this yesterday. Once and for all being Secreatary of State is a very important job. And as rightly pointed out the Secretary of State is America's face to the rest of the world.

While I understand the importance of the domestic roles, there is something awfully insular about Carol Jenkins's statement as though only those domestic policy roles counted...

Secretary of State is not a soft or easy or female job, and actually if you look at other countries they're so precious about diplomacy that they rarely (in some cases never) give the job to a woman - for example in the UK, where Margaret Beckett remains the only woman to have ever been foreign secretary because talking to heads of state and dealing with complex foreign policy matters is apparently a man's job.

Right rant over but seriousl.y it's a great thing that Hillary is going to be secretary of state and those who think the appointment in someway belittles her are being awfully blinkered in their viewpoint.
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scullymurphy
12/01/08

In reply to Hillary As Sec Of State: Some Call It The "Women's Spot"
Oy vey. Calling the Secretary of State position a safe, expected place for women really furthers the ultimate aims of feminism.

That said, I don't think that automatically means the other points about the lackluster numbers of of women in US elected office are invalid. Even if they are not the end-all be-all of gender equality measurement, those numbers are still unacceptable and we need to be continually mindful of that and work toward evening it out.
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dreamweave
12/01/08

In reply to Hillary As Sec Of State: Some Call It The "Women's Spot"
Megan, don't know if I've ever said it before, but I really, really appreciate the wit and wisdom you bring to your posts on politics. So, yeah! I hear you! That's what I'm sayin'! And thanks.
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TheGuvnah
12/01/08

In reply to Hillary As Sec Of State: Some Call It The "Women's Spot"
"Then let's take a deeper breath and think about the fact that of the first 2 people in line for succession to the Presidency, two of them are women."

Either I am reading this wrong or this is a typo...it should be of the first 4 people in line for succession, 2 are women.

Not nitpicking, just clarifying!
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
12/01/08

In reply to Hillary As Sec Of State: Some Call It The "Women's Spot"
"a safe expected place" = B.S. It was a HUGE deal when Madeleine Allbright was appointed, and pretty startling when Condoleeza got it too.

My mom is one of those still-smarting Hillary supporters (though she canvassed for Obama like a pro), and is disgruntled about this. Me, I think Sec of State speaks way more highly of Hillary than appointing her VP would have done.
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morninggloria
12/01/08

In reply to Hillary As Sec Of State: Some Call It The "Women's Spot"
The "women's spot" sounds like Tyra trying to gigglingly describe the clitoris.
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Lymed
12/01/08

In reply to Hillary As Sec Of State: Some Call It The "Women's Spot"
If Secretary of State is the women's position, does that mean that Donna Shalala and Janet Reno are not women? I'm a little confused.
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

In reply to Hillary As Sec Of State: Some Call It The "Women's Spot"
You know what I'm tired of, personally? The idea that because some progress is being made - i.e. that women/blacks/whatever are being appointed to some high-level cabinet positions - that any complaint about gaping inadequacy remaining in the system automatically gets read as "you just want the right reproductive equipment in office"!

I'm such a downer, I know.
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J.D.Regent
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: I really don't think that's what this piece is doing. I think it is criticizing not continued pressure on increasing female representation at all levels of government, but with people who diminish Clinton's (and the sec of state's) role on feminist or pseudo feminist grounds.
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J.D.Regent
12/01/08

@J.D.Regent: i realize this is barely a sentence.
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

@J.D.Regent: I dunno, personally I'm not seeing these women doing that. And I think there is some legitimate argument to be made that women are still viewed as inadequate to "hard science" jobs like running the economy. I have no idea where the criticism of Clinton herself is in here.

In general, I guess, I get sick of criticizing women's groups for, you know, zealously advocating the interests of women.
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yellow_dog
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: So was there a woman that you preferred for Treasury?
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J.D.Regent
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: Is there some sort of Larry Summers action happening here with the Treasury? I think saying, more women need to be represented in the Treasury, or in the legislature, or wherever women are underrepresented, is a different argument than saying, Clinton is Secretary of State because SoS is a women's position and it's somehow "soft." I think that is patently untrue and also counterproductive and even unfeminist in certain lights. Of course we need to continue pushing for women in power. But doing it through criticizing the choice of Clinton for SoS as a soft move just makes the argument seem weaker, because it's not true and besides the point.
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

@yellow_dog: there was Sheila Bair, for example.

also, the point is not that this that or the other post doesn't have women in it. it's that, guess what? a person with a vagina as Secretary of State does not mean sexism is OVAH.
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J.D.Regent
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: in other words I think we do need to criticize other people's feminisms and arguments made using feminist terms, in the name of feminsim (just as you do with choice feminism), and that doing so doesn't make us unfeminist or hostile to feminism.
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J.D.Regent
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: yeah, i think the feminism is over because clinton is sec of state is pretty much a straw man. I don't think that is what Megan is doing here nor have I heard that message from any media. Sure Bair could have been chosen and I think criticizing that choice would be a much more productive route than calling sec of state a woman's job because two women have held it before.
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

@J.D.Regent: I'm going to ask again, though, where is the actual criticism of this appointment? Noting that Secretary of State has been traditionally viewed as a safe place to appoint a woman is logically completely different than saying Clinton should not have been appointed to that position.
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

@J.D.Regent: but here what I see is Megan attacking feminists for making the (IMHO) still legitimate observation that the U.S. record for putting women in office is abysmal. She is delegitimizing their argument by claiming that it somehow means they are attacking Hillary.
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J.D.Regent
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: Ok I do see your point. I read it another way, maybe because the article seems to suggest that some people are unsatisfied with Clinton as Sec of state because she's not breaking new ground, in terms of gender, with her appointment. It is totally possible this is invented by Reuters to play the bitter Hillary supporter card, and Megan is playing into that.
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Ratinski
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: I really don't think that SoS is a traditionally safe place to appoint a woman. There have been two female secretaries of state. Two. In 232 years.

If you'd said education was a traditionally safe place to appoint a woman, I could buy that, definitely. But when the first SoS was appointed in 1992, I have trouble buying that argument.
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Ratinski
12/01/08

@Ratinski: First FEMALE SoS.
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NefariousNewt
12/01/08

@J.D.Regent: I think we not to stop looking at roles in any part of society as having much to do with anything (race, gender, religion, etc.). I think if we're going to criticize, let's criticize for the right reason, a.k.a. "that person is the wrong person for the job." In this case, you might not want Hillary to be Secretary of State, but she is an excellent fit for the job. She has the chops to mix it up with world leaders and help Obama push a new American agenda to try and restore some of our battered prestige. That she signed on with the Obama-Biden Administration given what happened in the primaries shows the world that we have a government coming into power that will listen and work with people, rather than ramping up the same old "fighting terrorism" rhetoric.
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J.D.Regent
12/01/08

@Ratinski: right it just seems actually and factually untrue that SoS is a safe, women's place just because there has before been a woman in that role. I think that suggestion is what is pissing me and others off about this particular line of criticism. they make totally valid points about under-representation of women, but that line is unfortunately very badly worded and makes them sound stupider than I wish they did.
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

@Ratinski: You are misinterpreting this. The point I see this woman making is the public has now been forced to be comfortable with a woman in this role for some time.

@NefariousNewt: Nono. nonononono. The universal benefits the patriarchy, because the partiarchy got to decide what it means to be "qualified" for a position and damned if it didn't write those terms to suit, well, people with a certain set of genitalia or skin colour or whatever as opposed to another set.
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

@J.D.Regent: so it was bad wording of what I still think is a valid point - why is it that this is continually a place where people are comfortable appointing some other - but economic posts tend to go nearly universally to old white dudes?

these are legitimate observations.
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Ratinski
12/01/08

@J.D.Regent: I think the SoS Is Soft argument derails the entire thing for me. Because, seriously, no way in hell. Being in charge of foreign relations and diplomacy for the United States in in no way an easy, soft job. And just because women have been appointed to State in the last two administrations does not make it the Women's Spot.
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

@Ratinski: again, it has less to do with what the job actually is and more with how it is perceived by the public.
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Ratinski
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: I replied to JD before your reply came through. That may be what Jenkins means, however it isn't the way I read it.
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

@Ratinski: Noted that she says "expected."
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NefariousNewt
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: Then how did Obama get elected?

Nope. Time to tear down the old rules. Hillary gets the job, not because she's a woman, not because it's a cushy job, but because she can stand toe-to-toe with an opponent and make her voice heard, and she's smart about it. Genetalia and skin color have nothing to do with it -- her force of personality wins the day.
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J.D.Regent
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: I guess I would need to know about women in state dept and treasury generally. I am not sure how revealing it is just to look at the top spots in these two agencies. Nor do I think that foreign relations are a particularly feminized field. Presumably one would want someone "tough" and possibly warlike, correct? Maybe there is something interesting to say as to why there have been three women recently in the role of SoS, but I don't think that interesting thing is that it has become a token female position for some unfathomable reason, you know?
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

@NefariousNewt: It is two completely different arguments we are having. I have no doubt people were appointed to positions because they were "qualified." I will not, however, concede that those "qualifications" are objective measures of personal merit, nor do I think either Hillary or Obama would say so. When you're not a white dude in this society, it's a much steeper uphill battle to get your "force of personality" reocognized and legitimized.
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J.D.Regent
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: I actually think it is really interesting that three women and two people of color have recently been appointed to this position, because it does NOT seem to be a particularly feminized or ethnicized position or field. It seems to me that our stereotypes are being confounded with this, rather than confirmed. Unfortunately as a typical woman I know nothing about Treasury and what Sheila Bair is like or what those dynamics are.
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NefariousNewt
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: Speaking as a white guy with some force of personality, I can say it's not much easier for me. And that's because I refuse to kowtow to the populist line, perhaps. I believe I'm more than qualified to do any job you threw me into, but it's hard to convince anyone else of that if you don't toe their line.

Honestly, I don't think my skin color has ever gotten me anything in this world. I think perhaps my gender has made me more desirable for certain positions, but it certainly has not always been the key to my success, when I have had it.
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

@J.D.Regent: I think you are correct in saying "women's spot" is a poor term for it. But I think it is interesting less insofar as it has "universalized" the position than it is as an indicator of how we seem to trust it as a place to put "Others."

@yellow_dog: not. the. point.
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J.D.Regent
12/01/08

@NefariousNewt: duuuuude...i'm pretty sure denying privilege is not where we all want this conversation to go.
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yellow_dog
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: Really? So what did this mean?

"but economic posts tend to go nearly universally to old white dudes?"
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J.D.Regent
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: what is that about (sos as a place for others), if you take it to actually be a pattern and not just a coincidence? Is it because they deal with those other others, foreigners?
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J.D.Regent
12/01/08

@yellow_dog: "old white dude" is a term of art, referring to the same kind of person who has always been in power in a patriarchal and racist world, of which all current and past secretaries of treasury are beneficiaries.
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yellow_dog
12/01/08

@J.D.Regent: Well, Obama's Economic team certainly looked diverse to me, as does his National Security team. I'm really not sure what some people want. Something to complain about, it seems to me.
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SarahMC
12/01/08

@NefariousNewt: Whoa whoa whoa. White privilege doesn't refer to being handed presents on the street because you're white. It means living in a body that's associated with positive, rather than negative, traits, and dealing with the repurcussions of those associations.
I bet you've never been followed around a store and eyed suspiciously whilst shopping for Xmas presents. I'm sure women don't clutch their bags more tightly when you walk by - like many do with men of color. I bet nobody ever said you only got into college because of affirmative action. I could go on and on but hopefully you get the picture.
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J.D.Regent
12/01/08

@yellow_dog: equality for women in all positions of power, for starters. It's not a criticism of Obama but of a sexist society where women are still woefully underrepresented in elected and appointed political roles as well as powerful positions in major industries.
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yellow_dog
12/01/08

@J.D.Regent: So how does complaining about Hillary Clinton's nomination advance this point of view?
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

@yellow_dog: who is complaining about Hillary Clinton's nomination?
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BeckySharper
12/01/08

In reply to Hillary As Sec Of State: Some Call It The "Women's Spot"
Did anyone say anything about it being a black job? Because the last two Secretaries of State in a row were black.

No? Really?
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hfree
12/01/08

In reply to Hillary As Sec Of State: Some Call It The "Women's Spot"
What pisses me off about this is that Madeline Albright, Condelezza Rice and Hilary Clinton are all highly qualified, kick-ass, take no prisoners women. They are all beyond qualified for the job.

While they're at it they should say it's the designated Wellesley spot since 2 out these 3 ladies graduated from that institution.
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NefariousNewt
12/01/08

@hfree: Actually, I think they are perfectly suited for the job, because they are all highly qualified, kick-ass, take no prisoners women. Hillary is not going to take any guff from Putin.
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hfree
12/01/08

@NefariousNewt: That was my point, so thanks for backing me up.
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morninggloria
12/01/08

In reply to Hillary As Sec Of State: Some Call It The "Women's Spot"
I, for one, am looking for more male representation in the Miss USA pageant.
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
12/01/08

@morninggloria: I nominate ANTM Isis!
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Sandicomm
12/01/08

In reply to Hillary As Sec Of State: Some Call It The "Women's Spot"
Ugh. I read so many articles about how Hillary Clinton "deserved" the Secretary of State position because she lost the primary. Please. She lost. She "deserves" nothing. Placing her in such a high position because of her gender would be a disservice and an insult to her. At any rate, I'm sure she was put in that position to keep the high-ranking Dems happy. Just like the Clintons.
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Penny
12/01/08

@Sandicomm: I am curious if you voted for Obama. Because you certainly don't seem to be giving him much credit here.
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Sandicomm
12/01/08

@Archetype: Oh, I did, most definitely. I just feel that a lot of media coverage has been about how Hilary lost and she "deserved" something, God forbid that the Clintons should be pushed out of the Democratic establishment, almost forcing Obama to pick her for some position. She's a good politician, and she is my senator. But I don't feel she is an appropriate pick for Secretary of State. I hope that I'm proved wrong.
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Penny
12/01/08

@Sandicomm: Gotcha.
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

In reply to Hillary As Sec Of State: Some Call It The "Women's Spot"
Man, feminists are wrong about everything. Such whiners.
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Penny
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: Seems to me that a few feminists are continuing to not choose their battles very well.
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

@Archetype: Or maybe that some people just want them to shut up with their Debbie Downer gender-equity complaints? That's more what I'm hearing here.
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Penny
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: I think people want some to shut up already because it's not helping anything. The complaining becomes really hard to swallow when 1) it's been said 100 times already and 2) there are bigger fish to fry.

Trust, I was a huge HRC supporter and I talked a LOT about this kind of stuff during and soon after the primaries. But, to be frank, there's a lot of important shit to get done and I certainly have gender-equity complaining fatigue, in regard to the new administration.
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

@Archetype: I fail to see how gender equity gets written out of "important shit to get done," is my point.
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Penny
12/01/08

@Archetype: I don't mean to say that it's not constantly on my mind, but I suppose I am more focused on other things. Personally, I wish she would have stayed in the Senate and worked on healthcare so we can ensure women in this country are being taken care of. Women's health at large is a bigger feminist issue than what position HRC holds, for me.
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

@Archetype: I really doubt that any of these organizations, if you asked them, would say "fuck women's health, I just want a vagina in the Treasury!"
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Penny
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: Because what does saying something like Secretary of State is a "woman's spot" do for gender equity?

I didn't say that it's not important, I said that THIS issue has really lost its luster in that discussion, in my opinion.
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
12/01/08

@Archetype: Yes. I'm all for not settling and always pushing ahead... but there's a time for celebrating where we are instead of grousing about where we ought to be, especially since the political cycle is just that -- a cycle.
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

@Archetype: I think you, and Megan and others, are reading a lot into that phrase. She is saying, we have already accepted that women can serve as Secretary of State - that step is done. Wouldn't it be nice if they were able to do other things? It's not a diminishment of the role, per se, but because we're all so eager to jump on women's rights activists as bitches who just want to tear down other women, we assume she's saying that appointing Hillary Clinton is anti-feminist. Quite the leap, IMHO.
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ceejeemcbeegee is not here
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: Man, feminists are wrong about everything.

So, they are never wrong about anything?
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

@ceejeemcbeegee: Another amazing leap of logic.
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Penny
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: I don't think she's saying it's anti-feminist. I think her statement is, though.
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

@Archetype: which one?
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oh_dreary_day
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: Or maybe that some people just want them to shut up with their Debbie Downer gender-equity complaints?

The thing is, their "Debbie Downer gender-equity complaints" have no business here. A woman ran for and had a very good shot at president but narrowly lost. Then she was appointed to Secretary of State, our diplomatic face to the world and 5th in line to the presidency. There's nothing in this whole story that says "gender inequity".

You may be able to find problems of gender equity somewhere in the US, but this is no example of it.
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PilgrimSoul
12/01/08

@oh_dreary_day: Wishful thinking never made anything true.
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ceejeemcbeegee is not here
12/01/08

@PilgrimSoul: Hey, you took the first jump.
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everygirl
12/01/08

In reply to Hillary As Sec Of State: Some Call It The "Women's Spot"
As a former Hillary supporter, and an avid Obama supporter in the last months of the campaign, I would have been livid had Sarah Palin been given any position. However, for women (and men) who would have liked to see a female president, the position of Secretary of State for a woman who would have been an able president does seem like a disappointment: this puts her in line to the presidency if some disaster would occur, but unlikely to become president in her own right in 2016- the LAST SECRETARY OF STATE TO BECOME PRESIDENT WAS ALEXANDER HAMILTON (look it up, i had to)- and for our best and most qualified hope for a lady president, that IS disappointing.
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J.D.Regent
12/01/08

@everygirl: just wondering what position you would prefer to see her in?
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everygirl
12/01/08

@J.D.Regent:

to be honest, i'd like to let obama be obama and hillary rock it in the senate and represent her consituency- she will be missed there!
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J.D.Regent
12/01/08

@everygirl: I agree. But isn't that up to her? Seems to me he offered her the plummiest spot he could come up with. Frankly I am very very disappointed that she indicated she wouldn't want to serve on the supreme court. The consensus (media generated, so maybe i am wrong) seems to be that she likes politicking too much and that supreme court is too behind the scenes for her. It's hard for me to swallow that if it is true.
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NefariousNewt
12/01/08

@J.D.Regent: Perhaps you'd prefer to rephrase that question?
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NefariousNewt
12/01/08

@J.D.Regent: I'm not sure how SCOTUS would be "behind the scenes," but then The West Wing didn't spend a lot of time on it.
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JamieRoss
12/01/08

@everygirl: Sorry, Alexander Hamilton was never President. Nor was he ever Secretary of State. However, several former Secretaries of State have gone on to become President, including Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, Martin Van Buren and James Buchanan. Not a bad list.
I think Hillary is in excellent company.
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J.D.Regent
12/01/08

@NefariousNewt: what, you have a problem with dangling participles?
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J.D.Regent
12/01/08

@NefariousNewt: i'm just repeating what my websites tell me. i'm thinking of starting to call them "my stories," like soap operas.
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NefariousNewt
12/01/08

@J.D.Regent: Well, I try not let the participle dangle...
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
12/01/08

@J.D.Regent: I'm willing to bet Hillary would NEVER get confirmed as a Justice. Personally I really prefer justices who are neutral, who interpret the law instead of develop it (I know, it's lovely here on my fluffy pink cloud).
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hfree
12/01/08

@everygirl: Alexander Hamilton was Secretary of the Treasury and was never president. Both Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, Martin Van Buren and James Buchanan were Secretary of State's who became president.
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J.D.Regent
12/01/08

@Mkp-hearts-nyc: I think her confirmation would be a breeze. My understanding is that she didn't want the position, not that anyone thought she would have a hard time getting confirmed or doing the job well.
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hfree
12/01/08

@JamieRoss: beat me to it!
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ceejeemcbeegee is not here
12/01/08

@Mkp-hearts-nyc: I agree.
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NefariousNewt
12/01/08

@Mkp-hearts-nyc: Never say never. After all, you have a Democratically-controlled Congress, so I suspect a confirmation could be rammed through. But I also think Hillary's talents are wasted on the bench. She needs to be in the trenches.
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ceejeemcbeegee is not here
12/01/08

@everygirl: I don't understand... are you disappointed in HRC's choice to take the job, or in the position Obama offered?
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Etoiles
12/01/08

In reply to Hillary As Sec Of State: Some Call It The "Women's Spot"
It did seem to me once upon a time that Secretary of State was the sort of parking lot for talented persons who for one reason or another -- race, gender, or both -- couldn't ever realistically be president. After all, the last few have fit the profile (Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powell, Madeline Albright).

Then we went and elected Barack Obama, so fuck all that. The right people are going to the right positions and Secretary of State is one hell of a job. If we called it the Foreign Minister or whatnot like some other countries do, would there still be all the bitching? *rolls eyes*
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hfree
12/01/08

@EtoilePB: you can add "not born in the US" to the list. Both Albright and Henry Kissinger are American citizens but were not born here so are not eligble to become president.
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