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ValborgCalypso
11/24/08

In reply to Pro-Ana Groups Plague Facebook
Any thoughts on caloric restriction? The people who think they will live longer if they get all the nutrients they need but keep the calories low? Do you think that could be a way to redirect an ED into a less dangerous direction?
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NefariousNewt
11/24/08

@ValborgCalypso: But your body needs more than just nutrients to survive. The nutrients are only part of the equation. Not to mention, the human body is built to process raw material for the extraction of essential material from food. The mechanism won't stop working just because you stop ingesting food on a large scale. The homeostatic mechanism in your body will always try to make do with the resources it has available and will alter your body chemistry and metabolism accordingly to keep running. That's what makes anorexia so dangerous -- the body burns whatever it can to keep running, even cannibalizing perfectly healthy systems. Restricting calorie intake and trying to run your body on nutrients will not work in the long run.
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kppontrucking
11/24/08

In reply to Pro-Ana Groups Plague Facebook
That's fucking disturbing. I remember seeing a girl on youtube whose entire profile was dedicated to "no longer being the fat girl" with the amount of pounds she lost documented on it in extreme detail (included what she ate and her pant size). She only favorited videos created by girls who showed off their ribs in them. The saddest thing was that she was only 14. She didn't want to lose weight to be healthy, she just wanted boys to look at her.
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Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith
11/24/08

@kppontrucking: Can I disagree with you on your last statement? Eating disorders aren't generally so much about garnering attraction from the opposite sex, as they are attempting to fit the mold that one believes people find most desirable. It is a psychiatric illness, not an elaborate mating ritual.
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Jack_Burton
11/24/08

In reply to Pro-Ana Groups Plague Facebook
I'm trying to wrap my head around how this stuff works, and how to bring a person back to feeling good about (her)self...

I've known a number of folks over the years that have developed EDs - college wrestlers, rock-climbers, everyday women and men - and I try to offer some kind of support w/o judgment, but it's hard to tell if you are making any kind of impact - esp from a million bits and bytes and miles away.

I'm not trying to fix anyone - I've got my own crap goin' on, too, and far be it from me to tell anyone how they should perceive themselves or live - I just wonder: what kinds of strategies are effective in helping someone turn away from "thinspiration" groups?

Anyone got some suggestions on what has been helpful or reassuring in understanding that you are loved and that we want you around for a long, long time?
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Cosette
11/24/08

@2pint: When in the throes of my illness, I was so incredibly grateful for the few people who let me know, gently and affectionately, that they were unconditionally there for me to listen, provide some thread of normalcy to my otherwise tattered state.

If anything, it was the simple absence of accusations, reductions to either a caricatured psych patient/vanity-fueled creature, hostility that meant the most to me. The single worst approach was to threaten my privacy and sense of control and autonomy.

I was fundamentally still Cosette, and as long as I was seeking the professional help needed, my family and friends sought to facilitate self-efficacy in me (encourage me to continue in my pursuits at the time etc...). They never lost sight of my recovery, or that it would be incremental and taxing.

You already sound so compassionate, patient and sensitive, btw :)
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Jack_Burton
11/24/08

@Cosette: Thank you and thank you!

I'll mainly try to "be there" and facilitate healthy choices - but knowing and respecting boundaries, first and foremost.
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
11/24/08

In reply to Pro-Ana Groups Plague Facebook
I think there's a slight difference between a blog/community you write in and a forum designed specifically to showcase/show-off your addiction/disorder.

But that issue about sites meant to help that turn out to be triggering...that's true of any addiction. We don't recover until we're ready to recover, and sometimes that means exploring all the avenues out there for hurting ourselves.
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The Queen of No
11/24/08

In reply to Pro-Ana Groups Plague Facebook
Those Pro-Ana/Mia/ED communities are terribly triggering. Makes me sad.
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TwiceShy
11/24/08

In reply to Pro-Ana Groups Plague Facebook
This is heartbreaking.
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ceejeemcbeegee is not here
11/24/08

In reply to Pro-Ana Groups Plague Facebook
Question: What is the difference between "healthy/conscious eating" and "disordered eating"?

Seriously.

As I work to change my eating habits for the better, I find myself tempted to not only eat less, but question damn near every food choice I make. As I said in the LiLo post, it's very easy to "slip" back into old, albeit destructive, habits. I'm careful not to make a new habit (like my new-found frugality) become an excuse to avoid eating altogether (ie, I don't need to spend $$ on take-out, so let me cook at home...oops! no food there either... just have a cup of oatmeal... no butter or sugar tho'). Then I notice my appetite disappearing, part of me thinks, that's good: I'm controlling my portions. But the other part of me says "watch out! don't stop eating!" Ugh... its kinda exhausting to always be thinking about food. Like the song says, 'Everyday is food!"
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
11/24/08

@ceejeemcbeegee: Well, I'd check out Overeater's Anonymous if you want some info on what criterion self-identifying "Problem eaters" use to work on their issues.

My perspective on it today is that I try to make good choices, but not to obsess. So, I'll choose the healthy option when I can, but if I've decided to have fried food and ice cream, I know that's ok too.
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descent
11/24/08

@ceejeemcbeegee: I think that's a REALLY good question.

I'm probably at my healthiest eating-wise, and I am definitely heavier than I'd like. I look back with what is regretfully fondness at what was totally "disordered eating" and what many of my friends would call "healthy eating" a year ago when I was thinner.
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Cafezinha
11/24/08

@ceejeemcbeegee: I've argued that point before with friends, especially co-workers at the gym I taught classes at. When I'd point out that certain "healthy habits" seemed neurotic and precariously close to disordered eating, I'd get dismissed as paranoid and worse, lacking the discipline to "be a role model".

What? Is monitoring every speck that goes into your body and every minute of activity really a "disciplined" way of living?

My current measure of what is good/bad is, "would I be okay with my daughters seeing me do this?". I don't want them to have to struggle like I do daily, and so I think hard about what I do.

Leaving them with Sr. 'Zinha an hour while I go pump some iron or train capoeira? Probably a good thing. Mamãe 'Zinha is not just mom, but a person with interests and facets, and she loves to move her body and make it strong and agile.

Disparaging my 'flaws' or 'weaknesses' in diet, exercise, and general life? Probably normalize a dysfunctional worldview about self, therefore: bad.

Tired of always having to think about it, though. My brain can STFU any time, I won't mind a bit. *grumbles*
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TwiceShy
11/24/08

@ceejeemcbeegee: I'm starting to think that being broke is gonna send me to the hands of disordered eating. I've been doing the very same thing and trying to cook at home and I'm getting scared. I've decided that the only thing I'll be spending money on IS food.
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rednrowdy
11/24/08

@ceejeemcbeegee: thank you for posting that.

just as hortense said, nobody actually wants to be anorexic. and yet, the line between diet-tips and anorexic-tips really isn't that far. for the article to even mention almost brightly that "50 percent of teens who visited sites ostensibly devoted to eating disorder recovery also learned new weight-loss tips" tells me that we have a loooooong way to go.

it's like anorexia is bad, but ooh! parts of it can be helpful!!! because of obesity! obesity is BAD!!! we're all oBESE!

*headdesk*
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NefariousNewt
11/24/08

@rednrowdy: We have not developed, in the United States, the concept of holistic health, the idea that the mind and body are all one system, constantly struggling for balance. Most of the work your body does on a daily basis revolves around maintaining the homeostasis that allows your body's systems to function. While the cerebrum was a great advancement in making it possible for the body to seek out the resources it needs to do this, it also comes with a lot of pitfalls and booby traps. The same homeostatic mechanisms that maintain you can be turned against you by learned behavior. The ideas behind the proliferation of anorexia are at once provocative and frightening.
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morninggloria
11/24/08

In reply to Pro-Ana Groups Plague Facebook
To be fair, there are also a lot of groups on facebook that could be construed as "pro alcoholic" or "pro drugs," which are also generally harmful behaviors.

Although, I do think that drugs and alcohol are pretty awesome, I guess I don't go around telling people who don't do drugs or drink alcohol that they are lame.

Wait. Yes, I do.
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Cesybabe or Nirvanah Crane
11/24/08

In reply to Pro-Ana Groups Plague Facebook
I cure all Facebook ills by some appropriate (or inappropriate as they maybe) superpokes. I see Facebook as an escape, and a bit of fun, not a place to be taken seriously. Hence the reason I 'baked a cake' the other day with my friend, whose brother 12 hours before died of Meningitis.While in real life I was there with a box of tissues and a prayer, on Facebook I was trying to cheer her up.

So I guess my point is that yet again the virtual world/real world border is weird. What people will say and do on the internet is completely different from real life. So people thinking they can control their ED on the internet while they are most likely spiralling out of control in real life is strange and worrying.
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sarah.of.a.lesser.god (aka Mrs. BrutallyHonestHobbit)
11/24/08

In reply to Pro-Ana Groups Plague Facebook
Pro-ana groups were, for me, a group of people who gave me what I believed to be support. At the time I belonged to one, I lived alone, was unemployed (on disability for my ED), not in school, single, and had no friends in NYC. My only meaningful face-to-face contacts were with my family and my treatment team, who were trying to stop me from my self-destructive behavior. On the pro-ana site, I didn't have to lie to anyone or throw tantrums. There were moments when I really thought it was a healthy peer group.
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Cosette
11/24/08

href="#c9095922">sarah.of.a.lesser.god.prepares.to.welcome.her.new.ovumlord: I found myself in such a similarly insulated and alienated place at one point as well. Your world becomes so small; it's a pretty precarious, stifling existence. At least, it was for me.
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sarah.of.a.lesser.god (aka Mrs. BrutallyHonestHobbit)
11/24/08

@Cosette: My world was basically my apartment, except when I went to exercise. In hindsight I don't know how the hell I stayed like that for two years.
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Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith
11/24/08

@sarah.of.a.lesser.god.prepares.to.welcome.her.new.ovumlord: God, and it's the only place where 'healthy' is an insult. Albeit of the most passive agressive kind...
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hortense
11/24/08

In reply to Pro-Ana Groups Plague Facebook
Ok listen.

When I was sick, I frequented a "pro-anorexia" site. The women on the site clung to their eating disorders as a source of identity, though it was always quite clear who was truly sick and who was just looking to drop some pounds in a fucked-up "glamourous" way; the people who dropped in to celebrate "thinspiration" and the like were usually people looking for a quick fix to weight problems who viewed anorexia as a choice of sorts- this is an incorrect way to view the illness, as many people can engage in disordered eating behaviors, but not everyone will develop a full-blown eating disorder (this is where genetics comes in.)

The point is this: these women are sick. And when you are sick and you feel like you are losing your mind, you look for validation and support to keep your illness "normal", in a sense. You look for reasons to stay sick. It's part of the disease. Your mind is so fucking gone at that point that all you want to do is hear someone else say, "yeah, I do this too!"

I don't believe there is any such thing as "pro-anorexia." I think there are just extremely sick women who are trying everything they can to validate their illness and continue with their destructive behaviors. Nobody WANTS to be an anorexic- anyone who says so is a fucking liar or an idiot. It's what happens to your brain once you're quite lost in the illness that allows these sites to thrive- there's no YOU there anymore. There's only the eating disorder. And the eating disorder needs constant assurance that it is the greatest thing in the world.

These are outlets for people who don't know how ask for help or don't want to.
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Penny
11/24/08

@hortense: Thank you for that first paragraph especially. I am always trying to differentiate between the groups without diminishing anyone or their problems.
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EkaterinaBallerina
11/24/08

@hortense: I've struggled with purging disorder/disordered eating for over a decade. I've never once visited one of those sites because in all those years the one constant was not wanting to admit I was sick. Not wanting to admit there was something wrong with me. I've never understood wanting to find support out there. Admitting to being sick like that is the hardest thing to do.
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pantsless economist...access RESTORED
11/24/08

@hortense: not a lot to add, just that i think you hit the nail on the head. for the ones who are truly ill, even with the validation annd the camaraderie that can come from ED sites, having an ED is a very sad and lonely existence. (been there.)
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pantsless economist...access RESTORED
11/24/08

@ekaterinaballerina: yeah, and there's a lot of pro ana rhetoric out there that attempts to rationalize by saying "EDs are a lifestyle, and a choice! Not a disease!" It is so fucked up.
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librariesare4lovers
11/24/08

@hortense: many people can engage in disordered eating behaviors, but not everyone will develop a full-blown eating disorder

YES- So many people don't get this! and I hate that for those people it adds to the whole ED=vanity stream of thought. There is a deep psychological, neurological component to EDs that people lose sight of and it frustrates me to no end. It's not unlike many other mental disorders that get shrugged off as someone just choosing to be sad, or overly vain, or shy. It kills me!
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
11/24/08

@hortense: Yes. I struggled with eating "issues" for a long time during my active drinking and early recovery, and found the exact same thing to be true of my disease -- I gravitated towards people who validated what I did, instead of the people who would have reacted with shock or surprise at my behavior.
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Penny
11/24/08

@Mkp-hearts-nyc: Because those people you have to answer to. Even worse if they love you.
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
11/24/08

@Archetype: Precisely. I could turn to my drinking buddies and suggest we hit "happy hour" at 3 pm on a Monday and eat nothing but peanuts and they'd say yes! Whereas I suggest the same to my father and..."awkward, judgy pause" ensues.
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msAnthrope
11/24/08

@hortense:

you wrote about your own experience a few months back, and you used the language of recovery to describe what you went through. i'd never looked at anorexia as an addiction because it seems so counter to what you assume connotes addiction~~ ODing on pleasure. but your post about eating disorders opened my eyes.

coincidentally i then received an issue of Scientific American which talked about how many people who are anorexics do develop a different physiological response to not eating~~ that many get a rush from an ongoing lack of food just the same way as an addict gets a rush from their drug of choice. this was how they explained why anorexics don't have the "survival instinct" kicking in to push them to eat once they achieve deadly low weights.

i'm not suggesting this is what you experienced, but the story was another look at a condition of which i found i'm grossly ignorant.
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EkaterinaBallerina
11/24/08

@msAnthrope: Having struggled with purging disorder (which is different from bulimia in that there is no binging prior to the purging) I can tell you that yes, I did get satisfaction after the fact. I often felt like I'd "cleansed" myself. So yes, there is a rush.
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Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith
11/24/08

@hortense: I have always had this 'I hate you, don't leave me!' attitude towards my problems (a triumvirate of anorexia, OCD, and ADD), and I definitely used to spend time on 'pro-ana' sites. I am terrible for comparing myself unfavourably to others (a problem I still struggle with), and I think I used the sites as a way to justify and rationalise my actions. It's very much a silent competition; you want to better the stats of others, yet you also have this internal monologue the whole time going "oh, well at least I'm not that bad."

I can't decide if they're that bad or not; I don't feel comfortable vilifying small online communities of sufferers for a problem that is not of their making (like, where does most of that thinspiration come from? The tabloids and the catwalk).
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echoparkgal
11/24/08

In reply to Pro-Ana Groups Plague Facebook
:(.... these girls need therapy and/or local face-to-face therapy groups that facilitate healing. Are there any Jezebel therapists/social workers out there that deal with adolescent/women AND eating disorders? in LA? I want to put you in my phonebook.
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NefariousNewt
11/24/08

@echoparkgal: The biggest problem is that in order to help them, they have to want to be helped. Part of the insidiousness of ED is that often they sufferer sees nothing wrong with what they are doing, because their perception of their body is skewed. That's why they can get down to just short of the concentration camp survivor look and still insist they need to lose weight. Getting them to see things as they are is the hard part, and you can't simply tell someone "you have an eating disorder" and expect it to click. It's similar to how schizophrenics really don't understand that there is something wrong with their thought patterns.
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sarah.of.a.lesser.god (aka Mrs. BrutallyHonestHobbit)
11/24/08

@NefariousNewt: So true. Hence why forced hospitalization "fixed" my body but not my mind and it took another eighteen months for me to take ED recovery seriously even though it had robbed me of my job, my savings, my health, the trust of my family, etc.
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happysquid
11/24/08

In reply to Pro-Ana Groups Plague Facebook
The first thing that popped into my head when I read this was the Strangers with Candy episode where Jerri becomes anorexic to get on the debate team. "Jerri, your problems are tearing this family apart!"

I think it's from watching that Stephen Colbert clip right before this...
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Penny
11/24/08

@happysquid: That episode is tragically funny. The "thin arguments" and all that....
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happysquid
11/24/08

@Archetype: Between Chuck Noblet (AKA Stephen Colbert) and Jerri Blank (AKA Amy Sedaris) "Jerri, did you lose some weight recently?"

"Um, yeah... very recently... water weight mostly."

"Keep it up! You'll make the debate team!"
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ladyshiv
11/24/08

In reply to Pro-Ana Groups Plague Facebook
I think I hate the internet. Porn, pro-ana sites, streaming suicide videos, college slam blogs. Too much public distress and discouragement.
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labeled
11/24/08

@ladyshiv: And encouragement. I remember about *years* ago arguing the point that the internet made enabling your demons easier, because you could find "support" and "empathy" for whatever it is that you do to hurt yourself or in some cases, others.

That point is now widely moot & entirely accepted.
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taranwanderer
11/24/08

@ladyshiv: Seconded. I want an alternate universe where I can live 19th century simplicity without the social ills and high mortality rate.
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NefariousNewt
11/24/08

@ladyshiv: The Internet is not to blame for the problems -- in fact, it has helped in actually bringing the problems to light. The downside is, that while it may be shedding more light on negative human behavior like this, it is also simultaneously facilitating it.
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ceejeemcbeegee is not here
11/24/08

@ladyshiv: Agreed. Except for the porn part. It's what the internet is for! ;-)
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gobblegirl
11/24/08

@ladyshiv: puppycam!
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Jack_Burton
11/24/08

@NefariousNewt: Excellent way of putting this!

Insofar as people are becoming more niche-oriented and insular, they still can't help but be exposed to the broader scope of human understanding in some ways... One hopes.
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Ultraprison!
11/24/08

@ladyshiv: ain't nothing wrong with porn!! it's kind of unfair to put that in the same category as streaming suicide videos.
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Penny
11/24/08

In reply to Pro-Ana Groups Plague Facebook
I should also add that I empathize tremendously with Rose. Not around an ED but with SI. I was never able to find a community online on which I could communicate with others. And, in my day to day life it was either 1) fetishized, 2) misinterpreted as suicidal or 3) used as a ridiculous way to transgress.

It's hard to feel alone and have so many awful feelings and demons.
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Cafezinha
11/24/08

@Archetype: Seconded. Sometimes, you just need to know it's not just you, and that it's not something exotic, something to be put under the microscope--it's just your reality.
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Penny
11/24/08

@Cafezinha: I remember that realization, myself. Feeling alone within the problem did NOT make me feel special, it made me feel weird and terrified.
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taranwanderer
11/24/08

@Archetype: I dunno...I was so ashamed of my SI that to this day only two people in the world know about it. And during, a community probably would have just given me additional ideas instead of encouragement to stop or seek help.
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librariesare4lovers
11/24/08

@Archetype: What is SI?
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Penny
11/24/08

@taranwanderer: Yes, which is kind of the point - that these sites, even ones that are meant to be helpful, can be incredibly triggering. I encountered the same triggers when even researching it, which didn't even happen until I was an adult.

I can't really hide it now, as I have a big nasty scar on my my wrist. People don't ask, but I eventually had to fess up to my parents and friends so they didn't think I tried to off myself. My parents were shocked and had no idea I had been self mutilating since I was 13.
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Penny
11/24/08

@librariesare4lovers: Self injury.
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Tartan_Tart (formerly Scarletbegonia)
11/24/08

@Archetype: Was it tremendously difficult to feel taken seriously? That may sound like a terrible thing to say, but when I was in junior high, "cutting" was a full blown trend. I've found that people treat self mutilation with a lot of skepticism.

I also may be moving this discussion to far off the path it was intended.
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Penny
11/24/08

@scarletbegonia: I actually think that SIs and EDs have many parallels.

As for being taken seriously, I didn't tell anyone so it was not an issue. I actually didn't even know anyone who did it back then, nor do I know what started it. I have been asked by therapists and doctors, "were you friends doing it?" or "did you read about/see it?" and I have no recollection of it.

I think the same can be said for EDs. And yes, both are used as means for attention/transgression.
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taranwanderer
11/24/08

@Archetype: Yes, that is exactly the point of the websites. I'm rather curious why you were researching it, but I understand that I'd probably be threadjacking. I find this interesting because I've never met another person who speaks so openly about SI. My scars, while perfectly noticable to me, are easily missed by everyone else. Perhaps one day I'll come clean to my family and friends. And funny enough, I actually got the idea from an episode of 7th Heaven where the girl with the SI actually got help in the end. Ironic, no?

I appreciate your openness and I wish you the best.
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