*eyeroll* I bet I can tell you why all of these people are serial marriers: they think that marriage is an important part of having a long-term relationship and they keep thinking their long-term relationships will last. Mystery solved! SRSLY, the things some people spend time and money on are so ridiculous.
@BuckCosby: Did you even glance at the actual piece or did you just read the headline? It isn't about Westerners and their conceptions of love, its about strategic marriages in non-Western cultures.
I find it disingenuous to decide that all animal behavior is The Model for Natural Human behavior. Is fish behavior the same as bird behavior the same as housecat behavior? No? So then why are we (pop-culturally) using it as an infallible model for what Humans Naturally Are?
You, THE ALPHA MALE, are not a lion, as much as you'd like to pretend you are.
Ms. Natalie Angier, you are AWESOME. I love your big sexy brain and your distractingly-funny-but-full-of-actual-s... books. And as usual, I agree with you.
I'm not sure it's possible to separate "human nature" from socialized mores. And I'm not sure what the point would be: We're so strongly shaped by our cultures that they are our natures. I think intrinsic "nature" is an imaginary thing.
Also! I LOVE reading about how other cultures shape their lives. It reinforces how the very things we take for granted as "fact," such as who benefits most from monogamy, are in fact just what we've been taught to understand based on who we've been raised to be. This first hit me after reading a book called "The Invention of Women" about certain African micro-nations where a gender binary didn't exist prior to European invasion. It's really eye-opening.
That said, an assumption that because a people is living a certain way in a developing place, that that way of life is closer to "basic human nature" than a culture in a developed country, is .... wrong on many levels.
I am confused as to how serial monogomy related to polygamy, and how the one is supposed to legitimize the other. The problems people usually point out in polygamy arise because all of the people are involved at the same time. Serial monogomy should not really involve overlap. *confused*
There is a growing evolutionary biology cohort who contend that the evidence for the biological basis of our theories abot polygyny and ALPHA MALE are skewed because early evo biologists were male and saw what they wanted to see.
When are people going to stop trying to "marry" every scientific discovery to general human behavior?
It's simple -- marriage is a social device, created by humans. Monogamy and polygamy are coping strategies used by organisms that sexually reproduce, to ensure the survival of the species and the propagation of its genetic code.
The two have little to do with each other.
We convince ourselves that monogamous marriage is the best end strategy for our species, not based on actual evolutionary evidence, but on social schemas developed over thousands of years. There is nothing in nature that says that "marriage" is a useful device, anymore than there is evidence suggesting that monogamy is superior to polygamy. Natural selection tells us that whatever strategy works best at the time and prepares the species to cope with changes in the environment, is the one to invest in, but other strategies are no less valid, as they cover scenarios we may not see coming or understand.
@NefariousNewt a.k.a. General Awesomesauce: Mmm, but there is quite a lot of evidence that paired bonding is beneficial for a whole bunch of species. Lots of birds and quite a few mammals pair off for extended periods of time (though "mating for life" isn't really what's going on). (They also aren't as faithful as they appear to be, as lots of DNA tests have proven.) Their offspring get more parental protection, they don't exhaust themselves trying to mate with everything that moves, etc.
@NefariousNewt a.k.a. General Awesomesauce: Well put, Professor Newt. Now... when are your office hours? I thought we might discuss ... my essay? *wink*wiggle*wink*
So let me get this straight. You're saying I am not supposed to follow the great and learned sociologist's advice for my life? Next you'll be telling me that horoscopes are made up.
@badmutha: Actually, my horoscope this morning said that I was going to have a big falling out with sociology, so my belief in horoscopes has only intensified.
@morninggloria: Where are you picking up these cheap kids? My four year old son and my husband can eat a large pizza between them, and--they each eat HALF.
"Too Many Husbands" is long overdue for a remake, starring Ewan McGregor, Alan Rickman, Liam Neeson and introducing LuvEwan as the Luckiest Bitch on Earth. Featuring Peter Sarsgaard as the pool boy.
Although, the poster seems to indicate the husbands are into each other, rather than Miss Jean there.
@la.donna.pietra: Hmmm. I concur. But we'll need to observe them for research purposes. I'm off to Sam's Club for a camcorder and economy box of Trojans.
Hee hee, this was a great thread. I recently had a very funny friend of mine (American) expound on this, at great and amusing length, and wonder why he was always bumping noses with Europeans. No matter which side he should be starting on, he accidentally starts on the opposite. Then wonders if the Europeans are laughing at him on the inside, a serial nose-bumper.
Errr, what about a handshake? Or a nice smile and a head bob? I've never been around people who kiss a greeting (not such a big thing here in the rural US) so I'm not sure what I would do other than wonder why that person was in my space...
this topic is extremely relevant to my life. I attend a masters program at a university filled with international students. There is endless confusion over whether to kiss the dutch way or the way they kiss in their country. Here is what I have learnt so far in terme of general rules:
Dutch: 3, right cheek-left-right.
Italian: 3, left-right-left. This is endlessly confusing when you are used to the Dutch style.
French: 2. right-left.
Mexico (and all of South America as far as I know): 1. right.
A group of us went to Chile together in November and some are still holding onto the one kiss greeting. Hilariously, my Italian friend will now say "Santiago!" to inform me he is going for the one kiss greeting to avoid confusion.
If you mess up it's no big deal; you just laugh it off together.
@takeitasred: I'm Dutch and I do left-right-left. Sometimes the other way around. Usually I take my cue from the person I'm kissing.
Three kisses are tiring though, especially if you walk into a party with lots of people you know. Usually my friends and I just do one, but we always shout out a warning first ("Just one today") so that the other person isn't awkwardly left hanging.
@haguenite: To which I would like to add that I only do the kissy thing with relatives and friends/good acquaintances. Also, it's mostly a female/female or female/male thing, not a male/male thing (in The Netherlands, at least). Men shake hands.
Most women shake hands with people they don't know well or people they're meeting for the first time, and it's not just a business thing. In informal social settings (say, a bar) you will also shake hands often. When you exchange names, you shake hands. I was told by my sister, who did a high school year in the US, that her friends there thought this was hilariously weird and formal, but here it's just good manners. I wonder if their age had anything to do with it.
But I never see it on TV either. Man, when I go to the US this is going to be so strange. What do you do when you're introduced to someone? Just say "hi"? Do an awkward little wave, Mr Collins-in-P&P-1995-edition-style?
When I was little, kisses were not required yet, but shaking hands was mandatory at birthdays and family get-togethers. I think I moved on to the three kisses thing at 11 or something. It makes one feel quite grown up!
I was accustomed to the London literary lovey two-kiss, then travelled to Canada and seemed to seriously disturb some people by doing that, and now in Germany I just regularly make a hash of it all and just laugh. I wonder what the procedure is here?
@bowleserised: Among older Germans, it's a handshake or a hug (if you know them). Among younger people, it's two kisses - at least in BaWü where I was/am.
09/01/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
You, THE ALPHA MALE, are not a lion, as much as you'd like to pretend you are.
09/01/09
I'm not sure it's possible to separate "human nature" from socialized mores. And I'm not sure what the point would be: We're so strongly shaped by our cultures that they are our natures. I think intrinsic "nature" is an imaginary thing.
Also! I LOVE reading about how other cultures shape their lives. It reinforces how the very things we take for granted as "fact," such as who benefits most from monogamy, are in fact just what we've been taught to understand based on who we've been raised to be. This first hit me after reading a book called "The Invention of Women" about certain African micro-nations where a gender binary didn't exist prior to European invasion. It's really eye-opening.
That said, an assumption that because a people is living a certain way in a developing place, that that way of life is closer to "basic human nature" than a culture in a developed country, is .... wrong on many levels.
09/01/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
It's simple -- marriage is a social device, created by humans. Monogamy and polygamy are coping strategies used by organisms that sexually reproduce, to ensure the survival of the species and the propagation of its genetic code.
The two have little to do with each other.
We convince ourselves that monogamous marriage is the best end strategy for our species, not based on actual evolutionary evidence, but on social schemas developed over thousands of years. There is nothing in nature that says that "marriage" is a useful device, anymore than there is evidence suggesting that monogamy is superior to polygamy. Natural selection tells us that whatever strategy works best at the time and prepares the species to cope with changes in the environment, is the one to invest in, but other strategies are no less valid, as they cover scenarios we may not see coming or understand.
09/01/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
Although, the poster seems to indicate the husbands are into each other, rather than Miss Jean there.
09/01/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
09/01/09
01/10/09
01/10/09
01/10/09
01/10/09
Dutch: 3, right cheek-left-right.
Italian: 3, left-right-left. This is endlessly confusing when you are used to the Dutch style.
French: 2. right-left.
Mexico (and all of South America as far as I know): 1. right.
A group of us went to Chile together in November and some are still holding onto the one kiss greeting. Hilariously, my Italian friend will now say "Santiago!" to inform me he is going for the one kiss greeting to avoid confusion.
If you mess up it's no big deal; you just laugh it off together.
01/10/09
Three kisses are tiring though, especially if you walk into a party with lots of people you know. Usually my friends and I just do one, but we always shout out a warning first ("Just one today") so that the other person isn't awkwardly left hanging.
01/10/09
Most women shake hands with people they don't know well or people they're meeting for the first time, and it's not just a business thing. In informal social settings (say, a bar) you will also shake hands often. When you exchange names, you shake hands. I was told by my sister, who did a high school year in the US, that her friends there thought this was hilariously weird and formal, but here it's just good manners. I wonder if their age had anything to do with it.
But I never see it on TV either. Man, when I go to the US this is going to be so strange. What do you do when you're introduced to someone? Just say "hi"? Do an awkward little wave, Mr Collins-in-P&P-1995-edition-style?
When I was little, kisses were not required yet, but shaking hands was mandatory at birthdays and family get-togethers. I think I moved on to the three kisses thing at 11 or something. It makes one feel quite grown up!
01/10/09
01/10/09
01/10/09