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Lucille van Pelt
06/19/09

In reply to France May Ban The Burqa • Couple With Swine Flu Weds
I don't agree with the reasoning france is giving, but i do agree with the banning of the burka in public settings as a safety concern. There have been reports of men dressing in burkas robbing banks and stores. It sucks, but if it really does become a safety issue, shouldn't the general publics safety come first?

[gatewaypundit.blogspot.com]

[www.liveleak.com]

[www.danielpipes.org]

i'm all for religious rights, but i'm also for public safety and if you can't determine that a person in a burka is not a crazy man robbing a bank, they shouldn't be allowed in public places.
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J.D.Regent
06/19/09

@Lucille van Pelt: guys also wear stockings to rob banks, Halloween masks, sunglasses, and baseball caps. Granted, most of those things would be prohibited in a lot of places and situations, but they aren't religious or sacred to anyone. I also think we need to be careful about terminology -- burqas are being banned? like a long flowing cloak? Or the naquib, fabric that covers all but the eyes? Or headscarves all together? What about headscarves worn for fashion reasons? I'm not clear on what the law would prohibit.
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Lucille van Pelt
06/19/09

@J.D.Regent: yeah, i'm just concerned about the full body covering cloaks. i think the head scarves are beautiful and a great way to express a personal belief. even the naquib that you describe. (sorry, i don't know all the correct terminology for which word goes with which style of covering). I wear my jewish star every day and would be very upset if i wasn't able to wear it. the difference i see with the examples you give is that men wearing stockings, halloween masks, etc, you can still see their body. with a full body cloak, you can't see what they're hiding underneath.
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J.D.Regent
06/19/09

@Lucille van Pelt: but like what about someone wearing a snowsuit? A huge muumuu and housecoat? If you want to pass a public safety law that says your close have to fit closely to your body, I mean, maybe. But I just think to single out this style of religious dress is a little heavy handed and has a lot of really serious social side effects that make it a net loss to public safety (alienation of muslim community, less likely to cooperate with police, etc.).
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meritxell: an erotic life
06/19/09

In reply to France May Ban The Burqa • Couple With Swine Flu Weds
You know... as intrigued as I am by an "aggressively secular" Ataturk-style government, the unpopular influx of North African Muslim immigrants to France makes me just a leeeeeeeeeeetle suspicious that a burqa ban isn't really "for the best interests of the Republic"...
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J.D.Regent
06/19/09

@meritxell: definitely, but to be "fair" there is as much anti-Semitism in France as anti-Muslim sentiment, and you can just look at their history to see what they think of Christianity. They are just anti-religious, for better or worse.
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ChildBride
06/19/09

@meritxell: North African Muslims don't wear the burqa. It's really a Gulf/Afghan tradition, and very, very, very few Moroccans or Algerians, especially urbanized ones, wear one. They actually consider it kinda weird, enough to merit commentary when they see a woman who is wearing one. This is a law that's really much more about the concept or principle than it is about a massive burqa-wearing population in France.
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meritxell: an erotic life
06/20/09

@ChildBride: Oh, good point...
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sara-without-an-h
06/19/09

In reply to France May Ban The Burqa • Couple With Swine Flu Weds
French person here.

No religious signs are allowed in public schools. You can go to a private school (usually around 2000 dollars a year or less) that caters to your religious creed.

The problem with headscarves and co is that often girls who wear them will not participate in co-ed gym classes. French officials see this as sexist, since both sexes must have gym classes. Another issue is that the French see school as a place where students put aside their different backgrounds to learn together. If Jewish students refuse to come to exams on Saturdays, this undermines the equality system.

A teacher friend of mine removes her headscarf before teaching.

Please note that many vacations are Catholic ones, and that the school canteens serve fish on Fridays. They also must provide for hallal and kosher habits.It's a complicated situation.
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J.D.Regent
06/19/09

@sara-without-an-h: This doesn't really make sense to me. If there is a problem with gym class, that is one thing. But it doesn't have anything to do with the headscarf. In fact many girls and women who wear headscarves are more willing to participate in sports and other activities when they are permitted to cover their hair.
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J.D.Regent
06/19/09

@sara-without-an-h: I also think it's misleading to say that religious students want schools that "cater" to their religion. Some of them do, surely. But others would like to be free to attend public school and still observe certain tenants of their faith.
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sara-without-an-h
06/19/09

@J.D.Regent: Most schools have classes on Saturdays. This is incompatible with Jewish traditional observance. We don't have prayer breaks either. So if you are religious enough that you can't remove your headscarf or your kippa for a few hours a day, maybe it is better to have an alternative system. I know it's a difficult situation, I'm just trying to show the French point of view. We are a deeply secular country.
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J.D.Regent
06/19/09

@sara-without-an-h: Yeah, I get that, and I'm just saying I'm not sure what class on Saturdays has to do with headscarves. I'm saying there are different places to draw the line about what kind of religious expression is permissible in the public sphere. Maybe keeping the Sabbath is incompatible with public school, I don't know. But a headscarf doesn't keep someone from participating in any activity. I understand that France is very strictly secular and I'm not suggesting that I know better what they should do, I'm just saying I don't think it really elucidates much to compare wearing a headscarf to not coming to school on Saturdays to wanting single sex gym class. They all seem like really different sets of considerations to me.
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sara-without-an-h
06/19/09

@J.D.Regent: If we allow headscarves, it's unfair to ask Jewish people to come to class on Saturdays. We can't pick and choose. Either we respect all religions (have all the holidays, prayer breaks etc.) or we decide to have a space where no religion is allowed.
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SmallbutMighty
06/19/09

@J.D.Regent: I'm on the fence about this whole issue, but I think it's also the idea that if you let one group begin to express themselves religiously, then it opens the doors to others. So if headscarves are allowed, then so should yarmulke's and rosary beads, etc.

It's not a cut and dry issue. Generally the Europeans are of a mind that if you want to live in their country, great, but you need to abide by their rules and traditions. And honestly, I get that. If I were to move to a foreign country I would do my best to adapt to the local traditions.
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Brigit
06/19/09

@sara-without-an-h: I admit I'm confused, but couldn't the girls wear a hair-cap or something? That way they are comfortable and it's non-religious. Or is the act of covering the hair that makes any item a religious one?
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J.D.Regent
06/19/09

@SmallbutMighty: who's talking about foreigners? There are plenty of French citizens who wear headscarves.

I do understand that it's not cut and dry, I'm just suggesting that if the underlying rationale for disallowing religious expression in schools is so as not to disrupt learning (gym class, class on holy days), that same rationale does not hold for wearing crosses, stars of david, headscarves, or any other religious ornament. It must be that the underlying rationale is to limit religious expression in public places. It's a potentially legitimate rationale, but a much more controversial one, and I think it's important not to pretend it's about something else.
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Diziet_Sma
06/20/09

@sara-without-an-h: I'm with you & France. Religion has NOTHING to do with education; it's a question of personal belief. There is no edict in the Christian church that says one has to wear a crucifix, and I abhor the Muslim belief that women have to cover themselves in public, even if it is only a headscarf. I feel pity for the women who follow those rules.

I've listened to and read many other opinions about this and I still feel the same way. Sorry everyone. Maybe my secular upbringing in the England is to blame. I don't think Americans realize how secular Western Europe is.
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Diziet_Sma
06/20/09

@SmallbutMighty: "If I were to move to a foreign country I would do my best to adapt to the local traditions."

Yes. And if you were to move to a Muslim country, you would HAVE TO cover yourself up, whether you are a Muslim or not! Double standards, people.
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nyc-caribbean-ragazza
06/20/09

@Diziet_Sma:

I agree with you. French and American citizen here. Western Europe is MUCH more secular than America.

I have no idea what Sarko's religion is. And most of my fellow French citizens don't care.
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Glitterbug (likes life shaken, not stirred)
06/20/09

@Diziet_Sma: I agree with you, re. everything (I'm from England too). Religion, in my opinion, should be practised privately. Overt displays of religion in public in many cases aren't necessary, and they actually make me feel uncomfortable. I feel uncomfortable with the burqa, as I would if someone chose to wear a full face mask around the place. If you are very religious, then feel free to live your life IN PRIVATE as you want, but it shouldn't encroach on public institutions such as schools, where it's my opinion EVERYONE SHOULD BE TREATED THE SAME. If that's not okay, then use private religious schooling, or teach your kids at home.
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justbluemyself
06/20/09

@nyc-caribbean-ragazza:

"Yes. And if you were to move to a Muslim country, you would HAVE TO cover yourself up, whether you are a Muslim or not! Double standards, people."

This is just plain untrue. I'm a secular American (raised Jewish, not that it matters) and I currently reside in Morocco. I've lived in Egypt, and have traveled throughout Palestine and Jordan. All of these countries are predominantly Muslim, and in none of these places did I HAVE TO cover. Furthermore, in all of these countries I've witnessed a broad spectrum of covering, not covering, style of dress, how covering manifests itself, etc. Of course, in more conservative areas I noticed more headscarves and more modest dress in general, but to suggest that women in Muslim nations are denied any sort of choice in how they present themselves is absurd.

"...and I abhor the Muslim belief that women have to cover themselves in public, even if it is only a headscarf. I feel pity for the women who follow those rules."

They probably pity you for being so narrow-minded and categorically dismissing an entire group of women who don't happen to hold the same beliefs as you. I know I do.
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Diziet_Sma
06/20/09

@justbluemyself: Advice For Women Travellers in the Middle East:

"Correct dress : it is important to cover your knees (a calf length skirt or loose trousers) and the tops of your arms (a tee shirt or something with cap sleeves is fine). Obviously no bare midriffs, and no tank or halter tops or shorts. You don't need to cover your head - except from the sun. You can relax this rule a bit at the main tourist sites like Petra, but don't relax it too far. Just remember that wherever you are, the more you show, the more you are going to get looked over. It would be utterly stupid to resent any leers if you are scantily dressed BY LOCAL STANDARDS and remember always that these are not necessarily the same as your own!"

[www.jordanjubilee.com]

I'm not "dismissing" an entire group of women; I'm dismissing ANY religion that requires women to do this. It is their choice to subjugate themselves, that is what I pity them for. In all other respects, I regard people as individuals and take as I find - I'm not passing any other judgments regarding intelligence, personality etc.
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Katxyz
06/20/09

@Diziet_Sma:

Advice, not requirements. You just said that you were comfortable changing your behavior for local standards, and covering yourself in a country where most people cover themselves with more than halter tops isn't necessarily religious, even if it's related to religion. Would you find a travel guide for Brazilian women that advised, not required, that wearing full coverage bikini bottoms was the norm in North America to be oppressive as well?
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Diziet_Sma
06/20/09

@Katxyz: Let's not get crazy with the Brazilian curveball, there. I'm happy to adjust my dress to fit in with local customs - that is my point. The French are asking no more than that; their customs regarding education are that it is a secular activity.
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smizmar
06/20/09

@Diziet_Sma: "Maybe my secular upbringing in the England is to blame."

Is that anywhere near "the Iraq, such as?"
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Diziet_Sma
06/20/09

@smizmar (formerly cointreau-teese): It's next to the Scotland and the Wales. Duh.
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mknfuss
06/19/09

In reply to France May Ban The Burqa • Couple With Swine Flu Weds
My daughter's (Catholic) high school took skirts out of the uniform for that same reason two years ago. The girls now have an option of pants or shorts. Many of the girls have been cuffing the shorts to be too short and they are now considering taking them away as well.
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Brigit
06/19/09

@mknfuss: The nuns in my school did skirt inspections and gave us demerits if our skirts didn't touch the knees. I imagine now the school vest with shorts --> gag-worthy. Please tell me they removed the school vests as well.
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mknfuss
06/19/09

@Brigit: Actually, they have a sweater vest which seems to be very popular with all of the girls and many of the boys. I know it sounds ugly, but it's actually really cute.
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keldo
06/19/09

@mknfuss: When I was in Catholic school the boys used to pull up our skirts so we wore shorts under them. No one disciplined them at all, which is weird. Anyhow I would have LOVED to have been able to wear pants. Especially in 10 degree weather.
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Brigit
06/19/09

@mknfuss: Ooh sweater vests sound nice. We had these horrible, "poop brown", shapeless, long vests. blech.
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Plate2.18
06/19/09

In reply to France May Ban The Burqa • Couple With Swine Flu Weds
So France is going to force people not to submit? Hmm.
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meritxell: an erotic life
06/19/09

@Kate2.18: It's a nation of doms.
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YourScreenplaySucks
06/19/09

In reply to France May Ban The Burqa • Couple With Swine Flu Weds
A French government spokesman has said that France will consider banning the burqa, "if it were determined that wearing the burka is a submissive act, and that it is contrary to republican principles."

Will France be banning nipple clamps, ball gags, and slave collars too? France has every right to prohibit certain types of public dress (as do many religious countries w/o Westerners getting all up in their business & screaming about freedom of expression), but they need to work on that legal argument.
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Dodgergirl
06/19/09

In reply to France May Ban The Burqa • Couple With Swine Flu Weds
Ah, Roland Burris. I'd almost forgotten about you.
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Ipomoea
06/19/09

In reply to France May Ban The Burqa • Couple With Swine Flu Weds
Here's the sad part about Pasco's worries about the opening of a Planned Parenthood: regardless of whether or not there are abortions performed there, there's always some whackjob outside of a PP yelling about TEH BABIEZ U HOORS! If Pasco wanted to keep it to a minimum, they'd exercise the firmest interpretations of harassment statutes and the FACE Act w/r/t the people who might show up to protest. And while my PP (across the state and in a suburb) occasionally gets the pack of old white guys protesting, for the most part it's left alone. There were no PPs at all in my hometown, and once a month we had the "aborted fetus" people protesting across the street from my high school. Anti-choice is anti-choice, and PP would just be a new and convenient target for them. However, there are plenty of smart, forward-thinking, and pro-choice people in the Tri-Cities, and I'm sure they won't put up with that crap for long.
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Brigit
06/19/09

In reply to France May Ban The Burqa • Couple With Swine Flu Weds
I have to admit that even though I don't know how things are going on in the French Muslim community, I don't feel comfortable with the Burka banning.

I don't think it's appropriate to coerce women into showing more (or less) of their bodies than they are willing to show.

If there are concerns about their civil and human rights, the answer should not be imposing some dress code on them. Working with the (I presume multiple) causes of inequality/injustice seems more productive, no?
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J.D.Regent
06/19/09

@Brigit: It makes me so uncomfortable. Why don't you just measure how long my miniskirt is while you are at it?
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drunken_butterfly
06/19/09

In reply to France May Ban The Burqa • Couple With Swine Flu Weds
Wow, I read "Pat Robertson" as "Robert Pattinson," and was really confused about why Cedric/Sparkles would comment on someone's marriage.
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alouette
06/19/09

@drunken_butterfly: You too? Classic Spoonerism.
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saintbernadette
06/19/09

In reply to France May Ban The Burqa • Couple With Swine Flu Weds
I got my mom Girls Like Us: Carole King, Joni Mitchell, Carly Simon and the Journey of a Generation for Mother's Day. She almost peed.
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Eric Northman is mine
06/19/09

In reply to France May Ban The Burqa • Couple With Swine Flu Weds
"too revealing especially on staircases."

haha, i wonder how they came to that revealation. I'm totally envisioning a crowd of boys gathered at the bottom of the staircase
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BellaNotte
06/19/09

In reply to France May Ban The Burqa • Couple With Swine Flu Weds
"If it were determined that wearing the burka is a submissive act, and that it is contrary to republican principles."

As if the symbolic value of a burqa is an absolute truth.
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gobblegirl
06/19/09

@BellaNotte: Duh. It's just like Catholocism that way - there's no nuance in people's beliefs, and everyone who identifies as a Muslim feels the exact same way about every aspect of their faith, regardless of culture and personality.

That's right, I have a PhD in Sarcasm Studies.
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LadyFabulous
06/19/09

In reply to France May Ban The Burqa • Couple With Swine Flu Weds
France,

Look, I like your fries and I adore your style of kissing, but wtf is up with you and people's expression of their faith? Chill the fuck out.
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Triana Orpheus
06/19/09

In reply to France May Ban The Burqa • Couple With Swine Flu Weds
I've been reading a lot about bipolar disorder and it's amazing how closely linked it is with ADHD, autism and anorexia. The drugs used to treat each one are almost interchangeable.
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electrogeek77
06/19/09

@Triana Orpheus: Medication is only used to treat a symptom of autism(Risperdal for irritability), not the disorder itself.
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Triana Orpheus
06/19/09

@electrogeek77: Risperdal is what I'm taking to stabilize my moods. Horrible, horrible drug.
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FashionShowAtLunch
06/19/09

@Triana Orpheus:

Risperdal sucks... but geodon is the worst.

Lamictal FTW!
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