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Thirtysomething: When The Mommy Wars Wore Shoulder Pads
Return Of Shoulder Pads May Be Harbinger Of Bad Things To Come
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twoclippedwings
08/29/09

In reply to Thirtysomething: When The Mommy Wars Wore Shoulder Pads
@: I was in my early thirties & the mother of two, married and working when this show was originally broadcast. I never missed an episode. The characters were each dealing with their own struggles & discoveries, all friends, trying to maintain the friendships as they all evolved. They were all finding their way. So the show is dated, as any 1980's show would be, but the issues are the same. They were just newer issues back then. I related. So did many other people in my social circle. No, it did not spend much time following anyone other than the yuppies but it was well written and relevant at the time. I'll probably re-watch them now.
Jezzies grow up but never stop being Jezzies.
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JerkoftheMonth
08/29/09

In reply to Thirtysomething: When The Mommy Wars Wore Shoulder Pads
I'm too young to have ever seen the show before, but watching these clips, I identify with Ellyn, and I don't feel that I'm supposed to side with Hope. I kind of thought it was interesting, and like Sex and the City, is important that the main characters are women and the main topics are their relationships with other women, which I like a lot.

Also, Miranda on SATC I think was the coolest television mom.
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MsChicklet
08/28/09

In reply to Thirtysomething: When The Mommy Wars Wore Shoulder Pads
I was a twentysomething when this show first aired and was in reruns on Lifetime. I identified with Ellyn the most, because we were both "career women" who were pretty ambivalent (to say the very least) about having kids. Later on, Ellyn proves herself to be a darn good friend when she agrees to babysit Janey so Hope and Michael can go away for a romantic weekend.

I didn't look at this so much as a Mommy War, but about two lifelong friends having to see beyond themselves and adjust their relationship to the new circumstances. Ellyn had to accept that Hope wasn't as free as she used to be, and Hope had to break out of the new-mom fog and stop taking Ellyn's friendship for granted.

Also, the friendships between the women on this show were some of the best I've ever seen on television. There were fights, but also encouragement, acceptance and understanding.
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meanteeth
08/28/09

In reply to Thirtysomething: When The Mommy Wars Wore Shoulder Pads
I watched the show as a teenager. I thought I was Melissa (artistic) but I'm Ellyn (even did a stint at "City Hall"). The analysis in this article hinges on the first season, when the showrunners wanted everyone to view Hope & Michael as the central glue of the piece. In subsequent years it explored all of the women in depth, and blurred the lines of what how they saw each other and themselves. It's not fair to judge it based on the first season alone, if you want to genuinely understand the impact of the show. I maintain, as well, that it was the first show where women were doing all of the things that these women do, and talk honestly about parenting, careers and marriage. It seems tired and cliched now because this ground has been over-mined. None of our current-era favorites, Mad Men included, would be around and as gripping without thirtysomething.
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Doree Shafrir
08/28/09

@meanteeth: They've only released the first season on DVD so far. When they release the others, maybe I can do a follow-up...
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LeviSurveen
08/28/09

In reply to Thirtysomething: When The Mommy Wars Wore Shoulder Pads
The one thing i think that is important to take away is that you don't *have* to be swept up into that sort of drama and debate. At 37, with a 2-year old son - none of our geographically-close friends have any children. however, besides the not-going-out-so-much-anymore aspects, it really hasn't affected who we are. and it doesn't need to - i still have interests that aren't centered around my son and am able to have fulfilling and fun non-work conversations with my colleagues and friends without just resorting to anecdotes about the cute phrase dec picked up or what he's currently declining to eat (although - that stuff does sneak in from time-to-time).

Thing is - it's super easy to still be yourself and remain true to yourself. I think that perhaps waiting until my mid-thirties to have a child helped since i was able to establish myself as my own person first and foremost. I already have an identity, therefore even though it's a privilege to be so - i don't need to solely be "declan's mom".

I don't know - just a thought - and hopefully, some reassurance that parenthood, despite changing your life, doesn't have to change who you are.
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Sweetie
08/28/09

In reply to Thirtysomething: When The Mommy Wars Wore Shoulder Pads
If I were Hope, I would have chugged Ellyn's wine before I left with my screaming child.
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OneTwoPunch
08/28/09

@Sweetie: Seriously. Talk about stress. Still, how one-dimensional these characters seem to me today, especially since so many of my friends are women who are moms and full-time workers. These types of easy generalizations don't really ring true anymore. And overly Romantic! How many women in these economic times have the easy choice between stay-at-home or all-or-nothing career woman?
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Doree Shafrir
08/28/09

@OneTwoPunch: I wonder how many women in 1987 actually had that easy choice either. I think one of the criticisms of the show, as some of the commenters have pointed out, is that it portrayed a world that purported to correspond to the experience of more Americans than it actually did. Which is to say: It was a show about white yuppies, the kinds of people who could afford to have these choices. After all, the stock market crashed in the fall of 1987 and the U.S. was in a recession for pretty much all of the show's run--which you wouldn't really know from watching it.
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DorothyBarker
08/28/09

In reply to Thirtysomething: When The Mommy Wars Wore Shoulder Pads
I'm actually old enough to have watched 30something when it aired; I was in my early 20s at the time, but found it riveting television nonetheless, in a smart, juicy soap opera kind of way. Not surprisingly, I totally identified with Ellyn and Melissa--the two childless single women. (And found Hope to be a narcissistic whiner and wondered why dreamy Michael loved her so much.)

At the time I thought the show was a fairly honest, humane portrait of The Way We Live Now. But Susan Faludi actually rips Zwick/Herskovitz in "Backlash" for many of the things pointed out here. The show was in fact a pretty male fantasy/screed about childless/working women (bad; shrill; neurotic; unloved) vs. stay-at-home Moms (selfless; loving; 'hopeful'). It's now pretty easy--and depressing--to see where the producers' sympathies lay. It was a really retro show, wrapped in "contemporary" fashions--50's kids Zwick and Herskovitz bemoaning the fact that "Feminism" took away their full-time Mommy-wives.
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cirocco
08/28/09

@DorothyBarker: Ooh, I was just coming here to cite Faludi's excoriation of the "Weaning" episode of "thirtysomething," where Hope gets a part-time job two days a week and the entire family falls apart due to her neglect. That scathing analysis has stuck with me for almost twenty years. It's in chapter six of Backlash, along with great feminist critique of other 80s TV fare.
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ZemarSea Urchin
08/28/09

In reply to Thirtysomething: When The Mommy Wars Wore Shoulder Pads
That restaurant scene reminds me of the kinds of scenes that happen at my store. Mom and grandma walk in with the stroller (maybe even a toddler) then the baby starts fussing and wailing and mom starts getting frustrated or just ignores the child and somehow I am susposed to be sympathetic? I always wonder why grandma didn't just stay behind with the kids and let mom have a night of shopping to herself. Or why the husband (assuming there is one) for that matter. I cannot tell you how often I see these types scenes. You know what? A baby doesn't need to go to the mall folks. Children get bored shopping and will run amuck until they kill themselves. Why do the husband, grandma, sister or whoever insist on going with you when they could just give you a break? This of course is only in reference to those who I see with the entire clan in tow and not those who come in solo. And if your breast feeding is it possible to find ways of leaving the house solo? Really is it?
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mimilove
08/28/09

@ZemarSea Urchin: OK. I'll just never take my baby anywhere because she might fuss and annoy you. As much as you might not like it, babies are just as much members of society as you and I are. Part of living in a society is having to tolerate other people's babies.
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greengrey
08/28/09

@mimilove: Is it so hard to take a crying baby outside of a restaurant/store?
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mimilove
08/28/09

@greengrey: No. But that's not what ZemarSea Urchin seemed to be saying. She was saying they should just leave them at home. Most babies don't cry 24-7. They have their moments of fussiness and those are often unpredictable. Yes--take the baby outside when it cries in a store, but leave it home entirely, never to take it in public for fear that you MAY annoy someone? I don't think so.
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greengrey
08/28/09

@mimilove: Ah, OK. I do think there ARE places people shouldn't take babies/kids (c'mon people, the world isn't chuck e. cheese), I think telling them to NEVER take their babies out is stupid.
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Jen82
08/28/09

@mimilove: I read it as, the crying baby would be better off at home with the person accompanying the mother because she deserves a night out by herself! I don't think the commenter was implying that whining babies annoy her, but she felt for an overworked mom.
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Mina_da_mad_child
08/28/09

@greengrey: I would never tell a person not to take their child out, ever. However, and maybe its just a NY thing, but there are some places children are not appropriate. A upscale restaurant for example.
Your special little snow flake is ruining my merlot moment
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greengrey
08/28/09

@Mina_da_mad_child: Exactly. Babies don't belong in certain high end places, where if the parent can afford to eat/shop, they can afford a sitter.
@honkytonk: Yes. I don't go to restaurants to listen to other people's babies. Just as I'm sure it would piss you off if you had loud neighbors, it pisses most people (I know) off to have to hear incessant screaming.
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RunawayPancake
08/28/09

@greengrey:
. . . or a commercial airliner?
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applejuice
08/29/09

@RunawayPancake: Please tell me you are effing kidding. Babies have to travel places too. I take my kids to the US once a year to see their grandparents and I refuse to let people like you make me feel bad about it. I pay for them to be on the plane and they have just as much right to be there as you.

They are well behaved, and MOST people have been very nice to us, but some people can still be very rude about people having kids on planes. It's not a four star restaurant it's FREAKIN' PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION. Pay for first class if you don't want to ride with the babies and plebs.

And you know what? Even if you don't have kids YOU WERE A BABY ONCE TOO, so have a little compassion for the babies of today. I think most people lost sight of the fact that EVERYONE has been there at some point, even if they don't remember it...

**Edited to say - I apologise for the tone and fed up-edness of this commet! I got back from the US a few weeks ago and there was a really horrible jerk in front of us. He slammed his seat back into my baby's head at the beginning of the flight, causing my good natured baby (who never cries) to wail in pain. He then yelled at my baby telling her to "Shut the hell up" and said babies shouldn't be allowed on planes. This was after she had cried for 30 secs DUE TO WHAT HE HAD DONE TO HER. Soon after he yelled at the flight attendant too. It all just went down hill from there and I am afraid I still have very bitter memories of the whole thing. My apologies - I think I was venting a little from that debacle. :)
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Edited by applejuice at 08/29/09 6:50 PM applejuice was starred applejuice was unstarred

RunawayPancake
09/13/09

@applejuice:
sorry for the belated response - but i was kidding - no need for an apology - i'm glad i gave you an opportunity to vent - apparently you needed it - and for the record, i'm never perturbed by babies crying on a plane - i do, however, get annoyed with oblivious parents who allow their precious angels to kick the back of my seat for three hours
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intime
08/28/09

In reply to Thirtysomething: When The Mommy Wars Wore Shoulder Pads
Ladies - do whatever you think is right for you and don't worry about what anyone else thinks. We only have a short time with out children before they are out the door and not in our lives to much anymore. So, enjoy it and stop worrying about. If you have to work - or you want to work - then just do it! On the other hand, if you can afford to not work - think about not doing so. Most employers are dicks and will never appreciate you as much as your family. If you do take that route "pay" yourself every month. Take as much as you can of your partner's salary and save it to make up for the retirement savings you are not accruing. Learn how to invest it properly. My mother-in-law did that and ended up with almost a million $$$ stashed away. Also, don't worry too much about being out of the job market for a long time. I know several women who came back after years and did very well. One became a mayor, another a congressional rep and a third even went back to being a doctor.
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greengrey
08/28/09

In reply to Thirtysomething: When The Mommy Wars Wore Shoulder Pads
If today's "mommy wars" were chic and fashion forward they would be wearing shoulder pads too!
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Aesop's Foibles. YES.
08/28/09

In reply to Thirtysomething: When The Mommy Wars Wore Shoulder Pads
This just occurred to me: Feminism IS acknowledging that what's best for one woman isn't necessarily the choice that EVERY woman should make. YES. If I simplify it, this means: no one is better than anyone else. You are not better than me, your choices are not better than mine, I am not better than you, and my choices are not better than yours. Endo story. We already know that we have the right to make whatever decision for our lives or our childrens' lives we think is best, but it seems that now some of us need to realize that judgement of any kind need not be involved. Actually, judgement must not be involved, because then we as women are limiting eachother and therefore harming womanity as a whole. I'm beyond glad that I live where I live and am able to do pretty much whatever I want within reason. I'm glad I get to vote, and drive, and have or not have children. I'm not glad that there's still this stupid in-fighting going on. That this is even an issue, that some women feel it's their right to judge/guilt/shame others on such personal choices. It sort of defeats the purpose of feminism, doesn't it?
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greengrey
08/28/09

@now it's just Aesop's Heatstroke.: You don't think there are bad choices?
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Aesop's Foibles. YES.
08/28/09

@greengrey: Of course I do. That's not my point. There are the obvious bad choices that people make every day. Those are not the choices I'm talking about. I'm talking about the subject at hand and the choices relating to it, i.e. SAHMs vs. working women, breastfeeding, etc. Basically the choices women make for themselves or their children, and why it's bad to judge someone based on what they decide is best.
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Ruby_de_la_Booby
08/28/09

In reply to Thirtysomething: When The Mommy Wars Wore Shoulder Pads
And let's not read into other people's choices as a judgment of our own. When mothers feel so beaten up by the mommy wars that they become defensive, it's a problem. I experienced this a lot when planning a natural birth. Several friends felt very impassioned about defending their need for an epidural, as if my wanting to go drug-free meant they were not strong. Same thing post-birth. I breastfeed, so their formula feeding is bad. I don't co-sleep, so co-sleeping is dangerous. I let the baby cry-it-out, so rocking to sleep is overkill. I want us to have empathy, but also accept that another mother's choice applies only to her and her child.
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J.D.Regent
08/28/09

@Ruby_de_la_Booby: yes, I think we can begin by not only being non judgmental about other women's paths, but also by quitting looking for approval from other women all the time and setting up the scenario and expectation of evaluation. Y'all are doing fine!
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ccchild
08/28/09

In reply to Thirtysomething: When The Mommy Wars Wore Shoulder Pads
Ugh, that restaurant scene just postponed my mom's chance at getting grandchildren for at least another two years. Do not want!
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otherginger
08/28/09

In reply to Thirtysomething: When The Mommy Wars Wore Shoulder Pads
I watched the show when it was on...not sure why, since I was in college and my then my early 20s. I remember everyone knowing we were SUPPOSED to like Hope, but everyone LOATHED her. She was just too Perfect Mother Earth Calm blah blah blah. Ellyn had faults. We liked Ellyn.
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EdnasEdibles
08/28/09

@otherginger: I remember when Nancy had cancer they were out at a shoe store and the shoe guy said "These boots will last your lifetime" and since Nancy had cancer she said "Well, sir, that certainly doesn't say a lot for yoru boots." and then started laughing and Hope stood there all pissy and constipated. I was very young but that scene stuck with me and I remember thinking "OH for fuck's sake, snap the hell out of it, Hope."
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KLondike5
08/28/09

In reply to Thirtysomething: When The Mommy Wars Wore Shoulder Pads
I'm so tired of the cardboard characters on both sides of ye olde Mommy Wars. You're quite right that people are going to do as they see fit to do and there isn't much anyone can or should do about it (abuse excepted, of course).

It's like any other intractable conflict, like any ethnic struggle you can name -- no one wants the obvious solution, which is peace by cooperation and respecting other people.

No, people want victory, to have their choices validated in 10 ft high letters that spell out "I WAS RIGHT YOU WERE WRONG". Reality: doesn't work like that.

I think all you can do is your best with what you have and realize that there aren't any roads you can take that lead you to a place where you have no regrets or second thoughts.
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Maritsa
08/28/09

@KLondike5: COTD.
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Thirtysomething: When The Mommy Wars Wore Shoulder Pads

Return Of Shoulder Pads May Be Harbinger Of Bad Things To Come

Rest in Peace, Slipper Lady.

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