It's nice that so many women actually do get something out of porn, but don't fucking kid yourselves, ladies, porn isn't made for us. It's made using us. Any enjoyment we get out of it? Is incidental.
@lisas: You know, this is a really good point to make.
We always see women like her talking up porn...but I'd like to hear what her co-workers have to say about the empowerment they get from choking, dick-slapping, and other semi-violent acts done to her during a shoot. The enjoyment they got from peeing and jizzing on a woman's face.
Simply put...would we accept this if her male co-stars came out and said it empowered them and they felt it was sexy and ok to do this to a woman on camera?
Flip the perspective and it starts to get kind of horrifying.
@lisas: Mainstream porn anyways, there are some very nice "by lesbians for lesbians" type companies out there. The one I'm thinking of at the moment's name escapes me, but they shoot porn which uses ACTUAL COUPLES, and just let them do their thing, so they like, love each other and are sweet to each other.
superconnected (is it time to leave?) promoted this comment
Lizard in the Wires - synthesizer signals suspense! was starred
Lizard in the Wires - synthesizer signals suspense! was unstarred
"Ideally everyone should have something extra on the side" ?
Um, doesn't the idea that her morals should dictate "everyone's" behavior sort of contradict her primary point?
How about this: when you enter into a relationship with someone, make sure that their key values are at least mostly aligned with yours. Otherwise, there will be lying, fights, and general unhappiness.
Granted, this attitude isn't as "sexy" as saying everyone should be able to have affairs with impugnity and those who disagree with that dictate are backwards prudes, but it does make a lot more sense.
You'd think that Sasha Grey would see the attitudes leveled at her and those in her profession and adopt a more "live and let live" approach to judging relationships. Instead, she has the same black-and-white views as the mainstream, just in the opposite order.
LilyBonesBurana promoted this comment
Lizard in the Wires - synthesizer signals suspense! was starred
Lizard in the Wires - synthesizer signals suspense! was unstarred
@LilyBonesBurana: I blame "The Rules of the Game." No one in that (very good) movie can stop cheating on each other. And then at the end it's the non-French girl who gets her heart broken because she was stupid enough to actually fall in love with someone instead of just sleeping around.
Edited by Lizard in the Wires - synthesizer signals suspense! at 11/27/09 1:16 AM
Lizard in the Wires - synthesizer signals suspense! was starred
Lizard in the Wires - synthesizer signals suspense! was unstarred
'Americans act so shocked when they hear about politicians, celebrities, and athletes having affairs, but I have to believe that many men who are married to women with sex appeal are aware of affairs, and accept it. Don't ask, don't tell; as long as they receive something in exchange from their wife-whether that exchange be children, money, material items, or sex.'
[I]n most of the interview she sounds very mature and articulate
I personally found her to sound pretty immature and naive. Granted, she's got some interesting ideas but they're not fully formed or rather accessible in my opinion. If anything, I feel like some of the ideas she presented were fed to her from the porn industry. She came across as very defensive (completely understandable) and young.
I don't mean to lambaste her but I don't think she's in the position to be expressing her opinions on a wide range of subjects when it seems like she has very little experience or knowledge outside of her work.
@sapphire: I don't care what your opinion is as long as it's A) researched and B) can be backed up. She's got neither of those by the looks of it. Like Confucius said, "To know that we know what we know, and that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge."
@bluebears: "I don't think she's in the position to be expressing her opinions on a wide range of subjects when it seems like she has very little experience or knowledge outside of her work."
This doesn't sound like me to even be critiquing someone's opinion. I hear this as questioning her right to have opinions and talk about them.
@hamburgerhotdog: Are you serious? you only respect opinions which have been researched and can be backed up?? I like the new Julian Casablancas album. Do I need to research why I like it and back it up with something? It's an opinion. Opinion is not fact, therefore it shouldn't have to be 'backed up' or researched surely??
@chancentrate: Well, when your opinion is that you think political wives are, effectively, all lying drama queens who all know that their husbands are pussy/dick-hounds, it'd probably be a great idea to have some kind of factual basis for that opinion.
And yes, I respect the opinions of people who can tell me WHY they like the new Julian Casablancas album more than people who cannot. That is why music criticism exists!
Sorry. I read her quotes and all I think is, "Dang, is she YOUNG."
No offense to you other, perhaps more mature youngsters. There's just a baseline know-it-allness that indicates a certain need to grow up a little. Or a lot.
@LilyBonesBurana: True enough. I have met more than one 21 year old in my time who considered themselves to be so far ahead of their years- oh, so mature! And not too many moons later, had cause to laugh ruefully at their younger earnest selves.
Now, I won't say if I was such a one, but I will tell you that I'm really glad that online journals weren't around when I was that age. No, I got to burn my diaries before anyone saw them!
@SpiceMustFlow: Oh hell yeah, Spicey-Spice! I am so glad that I was a fanzine girl, not a blog girl. Paper burns. Blogs, not so much. The evidence of my own 21-somethin' hubris is harder to come by. Inshallah.
I don't begrudge her a moment in the sun. I think she is lovely, and actually, she shows a great work ethic. But her philosophical posturing points to a bit of a lapse between how things are, and how she thinks things should be.
(I'd bet the family farm that most political and showbiz wives do NOT assume affairs a) will happen and b) be okay cuz the wife is "gettin' hers" materially.)
She's not DANGEROUSLY stupid, or a liar, or even a threat to anything I hold dear, so I'm happy to see her out there testing her ideas on the cold, unfriendly world (she will see just how unfriendly it may be when she gets to, say, Jenna Jameson's age). But I'm also happy to think, OH YOU KID!
She's a knockout who is fascinating to people in the straight world, including straight reporters who like to tap on the glass to see if this exotic bird can talk. Lo and behold--she does! And at great length! But for all this self-awareness, she seems oblivious to the appropriateness of people objecting to things she does (sorry, kid, it's the price you pay for controversial work!), and even to the basic construct of her business, which is part and parcel of the patriarchal sexual construct--she's the "whore" in the virgin/wife/whore girl triptych, and while that may seem like a way to game the system, it is still very much being part of the system.
I've been there (though not on video, thank freakin' god--for me *and* the viewing public), and it looks very very different as you work your way through the adult biz career arc.
But hey, better her talkin' than Carrie "I want it both ways!" Prejean. Any old time!!!
I can't shake the feeling that I find Sasha Grey so...unlikable. In almost every interview I read of hers, she comes across as cocky to me. I don't think she is unintelligent or inarticulate; there is just something about her demeanor that I find off-putting. And it isn't a porn star thing, because I actually like Jenna Jameson based on her interviews. I suppose the difference is that Jenna is willing to acknowledge and discuss the unsavory sides of her business, and therefore comes across as reflective, while Sasha just seems overly self-assured.
(Again, this is my take on this--just to pre-empt the people who were annoyed at me for defending Jenna in the Oprah thread.)
@Tchotchke: Thank you. I appreciate that she wants to elevate porn, has artsy movie interests, is articulate, and very mature and adult. However, in interviews, she comes off as full of herself, cold, removed, and takes herself way too seriously. I've hardly ever seen her laugh or smile or break out of her businesswoman attitude. She could be very light and funny in her personal life, but she doesn't come across that way in interviews, and it turns me off of her.
As a comparison, I've read/seen interviews with Nina Hartley where she's just as articulate and knowledgeable, but funny and likable and open and doesn't take sex/porn too seriously, just saying "just be smart and have fun!"
@beatrice2000: Did you see Nina in the XXX Sex documentary? Love her. So smart and articulate, and obviously thought and reflective about the lifestyle she's chosen to lead.
I really dislike it when porn stars think that anyone who doesn't respect their career choice (or them) is prudish, immature, ignorant, puritanical, or repressed.
She seems (sadly) uneducated and immature (based on this interview and others I've seen).
@JessickerFletcher: I agree with you. I have a healthy adult sex life. I have healthy relationships. I don't see how not thinking porn is empowering makes me prudish.
Oh and I'm a secular humanist.
But fucking for money on camera still doesn't sit right with me.
I won't throw stones but I also won't accept it as "normal". Human sexuality is too complicated to just package it like a product.
@LilSpitfire: I don't see how not thinking porn is empowering makes me prudish
Exactly. Took the words straight out of my mouth. Using your sexuality/femininity/whatever as means to make a living is not empowering in my book whatsoever.
@JessickerFletcher: She's 21, and probably suffering a lot of the "know-it-all"isms we all suffered at that age. I think she's intelligent but her age and other factors probably have put her in a bit of a bubble and she likes to think she's the only smart person to ever be in the industry and flaunts that. Hopefully age and experience (and maybe more education) will give her better perspective.
@hamburgerhotdog: She's also been touted as the thoughtful and empowered porn star by her producers. She's bound to have internalized some of that and actually believe that she's an expert on sexuality in general because she works in the industry and she's obviously not a total idiot. But to me, she sounds like many other girls her age, and there's nothing wrong with that except that she seems to be held up as a type of role mode.
@scarletwine: Exactly--special snowflake syndrome.I wonder just how much reading she's done on gender, class and culture studies in her industry. Young Jedi knight has a lot to learn...
@JessickerFletcher: Agree, and I think that there's a bit of the soft bigotry of low expectations going on with the way people praise her intelligence and eloquence. Every thing I've read from her seems strikingly naive. She's fond of saying that any critique of porn and its larger implications has no merit because she's into it? Please.
She calls herself an "existentialist" porn star, which enough to make my eyes roll so far back in my head I can see my own brain. Does it get more pretentious than that?
@hamburgerhotdog: No, but those types of comments are exactly why it will be fascinating to check in on her in 10 years and see how much or how little her opinions have changed. In general, I am ambivalent about porn, but some of Sasha's comments in other interviews have given me pause. There is a difference between accepting the business as it is and feeling a sense of ownership over your decisions/profession and elevating it to be something it isn't as a means of justification. See my above statement for a more clarified example. : )
@hollymar: Ha! You hit the nail on the head. All the pontificating (both from Grey and her fans) seems to conveniently forget that violent, male-dominant sex is incredibly conservative and panders to a really retrograde idea of what is hot.
I sincerely doubt that the men who get off on watching a girl being suffocated by a penis are thinking "wow, that is so empowering for her."
I find it confusing that modern feminism argues that objectifying ourselves is a good answer to being objectified by men. Or that by hurting ourselves, we are pre-empting others who wish to hurt us.
Maybe that's just me being stupid, I don't know...
Maggie's a friend of mine. She's a sex worker and an HIV specialist. Pretty much one of the most badass women I'm privileged to know. She writes a lot about her perceptions of the sex industry in this country - if you're interested, it's totally worth a look.
I'm mentally juxtaposing her statements with that of another early-20something (Megan Fox) who frequently puts her foot in it and well, they just seem to have limited experience in the world. I don't know whether Sasha's mature enough to recognize victim-blaming for what it is.
I like what she is saying here for the most part and chalk up some of her gaffes to naivete.
While I'm not Sasha Grey's biggest fan, I have to admit that she's pretty poised in this interview.
She did totally get it wrong with the "Before Christianity and Catholicism took over most people were in poly-amorous relationships" bit and I am an expert on sex and sexuality through history (everyone has to have their niche?).
11/26/09
11/26/09
We always see women like her talking up porn...but I'd like to hear what her co-workers have to say about the empowerment they get from choking, dick-slapping, and other semi-violent acts done to her during a shoot. The enjoyment they got from peeing and jizzing on a woman's face.
Simply put...would we accept this if her male co-stars came out and said it empowered them and they felt it was sexy and ok to do this to a woman on camera?
Flip the perspective and it starts to get kind of horrifying.
11/27/09
11/25/09
Um, doesn't the idea that her morals should dictate "everyone's" behavior sort of contradict her primary point?
How about this: when you enter into a relationship with someone, make sure that their key values are at least mostly aligned with yours. Otherwise, there will be lying, fights, and general unhappiness.
Granted, this attitude isn't as "sexy" as saying everyone should be able to have affairs with impugnity and those who disagree with that dictate are backwards prudes, but it does make a lot more sense.
You'd think that Sasha Grey would see the attitudes leveled at her and those in her profession and adopt a more "live and let live" approach to judging relationships. Instead, she has the same black-and-white views as the mainstream, just in the opposite order.
11/26/09
Don't you want to be cultured like Sasha Grey?!
11/26/09
It's we've set up France as Le Cheatopia, where hookers, mistresses, and toyboys are a regular part of the family!
11/27/09
11/27/09
But then, I blame them for everything.
11/25/09
11/25/09
I personally found her to sound pretty immature and naive. Granted, she's got some interesting ideas but they're not fully formed or rather accessible in my opinion. If anything, I feel like some of the ideas she presented were fed to her from the porn industry. She came across as very defensive (completely understandable) and young.
I don't mean to lambaste her but I don't think she's in the position to be expressing her opinions on a wide range of subjects when it seems like she has very little experience or knowledge outside of her work.
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
This doesn't sound like me to even be critiquing someone's opinion. I hear this as questioning her right to have opinions and talk about them.
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/26/09
11/27/09
And yes, I respect the opinions of people who can tell me WHY they like the new Julian Casablancas album more than people who cannot. That is why music criticism exists!
11/25/09
No offense to you other, perhaps more mature youngsters. There's just a baseline know-it-allness that indicates a certain need to grow up a little. Or a lot.
Young =/ immature, but you catch the drift...
11/26/09
Now, I won't say if I was such a one, but I will tell you that I'm really glad that online journals weren't around when I was that age. No, I got to burn my diaries before anyone saw them!
11/26/09
I don't begrudge her a moment in the sun. I think she is lovely, and actually, she shows a great work ethic. But her philosophical posturing points to a bit of a lapse between how things are, and how she thinks things should be.
(I'd bet the family farm that most political and showbiz wives do NOT assume affairs a) will happen and b) be okay cuz the wife is "gettin' hers" materially.)
She's not DANGEROUSLY stupid, or a liar, or even a threat to anything I hold dear, so I'm happy to see her out there testing her ideas on the cold, unfriendly world (she will see just how unfriendly it may be when she gets to, say, Jenna Jameson's age). But I'm also happy to think, OH YOU KID!
She's a knockout who is fascinating to people in the straight world, including straight reporters who like to tap on the glass to see if this exotic bird can talk. Lo and behold--she does! And at great length! But for all this self-awareness, she seems oblivious to the appropriateness of people objecting to things she does (sorry, kid, it's the price you pay for controversial work!), and even to the basic construct of her business, which is part and parcel of the patriarchal sexual construct--she's the "whore" in the virgin/wife/whore girl triptych, and while that may seem like a way to game the system, it is still very much being part of the system.
I've been there (though not on video, thank freakin' god--for me *and* the viewing public), and it looks very very different as you work your way through the adult biz career arc.
But hey, better her talkin' than Carrie "I want it both ways!" Prejean. Any old time!!!
11/25/09
(Again, this is my take on this--just to pre-empt the people who were annoyed at me for defending Jenna in the Oprah thread.)
11/25/09
As a comparison, I've read/seen interviews with Nina Hartley where she's just as articulate and knowledgeable, but funny and likable and open and doesn't take sex/porn too seriously, just saying "just be smart and have fun!"
11/25/09
Which is more than you can say for most people.
#tips
11/25/09
She seems (sadly) uneducated and immature (based on this interview and others I've seen).
11/25/09
Oh and I'm a secular humanist.
But fucking for money on camera still doesn't sit right with me.
I won't throw stones but I also won't accept it as "normal". Human sexuality is too complicated to just package it like a product.
11/25/09
Exactly. Took the words straight out of my mouth. Using your sexuality/femininity/whatever as means to make a living is not empowering in my book whatsoever.
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
Something that should be free and natural?
I don't know.
#tips
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
I sincerely doubt that the men who get off on watching a girl being suffocated by a penis are thinking "wow, that is so empowering for her."
I find it confusing that modern feminism argues that objectifying ourselves is a good answer to being objectified by men. Or that by hurting ourselves, we are pre-empting others who wish to hurt us.
Maybe that's just me being stupid, I don't know...
11/25/09
Far, far less so with smeared mascara, watery eyes and making noises like someone who is being choked.
11/25/09
Maggie's a friend of mine. She's a sex worker and an HIV specialist. Pretty much one of the most badass women I'm privileged to know. She writes a lot about her perceptions of the sex industry in this country - if you're interested, it's totally worth a look.
11/25/09
I like what she is saying here for the most part and chalk up some of her gaffes to naivete.
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
She did totally get it wrong with the "Before Christianity and Catholicism took over most people were in poly-amorous relationships" bit and I am an expert on sex and sexuality through history (everyone has to have their niche?).