I'd say considering how expensive becoming a student is in the UK and how tricky it is to find part time work to help you through due to the economy, it's fairly likely that a lot of British girls will remember Belle de Jour (probably because the TV show was so hyped here) and consider prostitution or escort work.
I paid my way through my degree escorting, and therefore find it extremely difficult to be objective on this subject as I have zero respect for the men who use these services after dealing with them. Give women all the choice in the world to do sex work, but if you don't do something about the men, they'll never completely be in control.
Ironically I was never raped until after I stopped escorting, but it fucked with my emotions in a million other ways that I would never have expected when I started. I thought I was tough as old boots and could handle it. Due to ill health I couldn't really do any other job with extremely long hours to make up the shortfall in my income, but I would have preferred even strip club work as I found escorting desperately lonely as much as anything else.
The money helped me immensely, but in the long term, I think being in debt would have been better for me. I just don't think anyone should leap into sex work of any kind without thinking it through very careful about how it will affect them now in the future (assuming they have the choice in entering sex work).
I've been honest about my past and it has bitten me hard on the arse. I'm not sure I regret the escorting, but I definitely regret telling anyone about it (which is why I'm posting on the internet about it. Ehem...)
@gherkinfiend: I always wish there was a way to know what sex work would be like in a culture that didn't heap so much shame and scorn on it. I'm not saying it would be cupcakes and rainbows, but I suspect more people would choose it who were actually suited to it, and sex workers would have more support to deal with whatever damage they did incur from it. Having to conceal part of your life from your loved ones has always got to make things that much tougher.
This reminds me of the Freakonomics guys. Hey ladies, what's keeping you from demanding money for 'giving it up'?!
Also, as always, who the hell do these people think these women are servicing? Aliens? Foreigners? Johns are your fathers, brothers, sons and spouses (ideally future ones). Won't somebody please think of the male children and their self-respect? It's one thing to get paid for having sex, but to stoop so low as to pay someone for it? How degrading! You're out your virtue and a few quid.
@Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!: A lot of men who pay for it admit that it's a last resort.
And I'm referring to ordinary, "respectable" men (fathers, brothers, sons and spouses) - not creepy guys who scare off women.
@missdelite: I was exaggerating (kind of) for effect. Because the fact of the matter is, no prostitute is seeing a single client (at least not at the beginning of her career). Statistically there have got to be more men seeing prostitutes than prostitutes themselves. So where's the outcry over the numerous men being damaged by not only having sex with strangers, but having to pay for it as well?
@Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!: On the men's part, there's a lot of shame involved. Most of them don't talk about it outside of anonymous review forums and paying for it is seen as a "necessary evil".
In my experience, they're usually over 50 years old, married at least 15 years, have kids and no longer sleeping with their SO (for numerous reasons). They don't frequent bars or clubs or sleep around at work and are not the type to score with women in a public place like a grocery store.
However, they still want sex, so they see hiring an escort as their only option. Of course, there are those who do it for sport or to indulge in a fetish - but that's a whole other ball game.
It's easy for us to look at these men and say "Why don't you work it out with your wife or divorce her?", but the reality of their situation is oftentimes more complicated than that. Or at least, that's the way they see it.
I mean, I'm not a big fan of the whole "prostitution is liberating!" or even "prostitution is just a job without ramifications outside my bank account!" claims. But I will say that someone described as "she wiped her nose on her sleeve and ate peas off her knife whilst discussing advanced astronomy etc at the dinner table" seems pretty enjoyable to me.
@Cimorene: Really! To me "she wiped her nose on her sleeve' says that she's practical and good at adaptive problem solving, and 'ate peas off her knife' says that she has very steady hands and good reflexes. I don't see a problem.
I eat my peas with honey
I've done it all my life
It makes the peas taste funny
But it keeps them on my knife.
Re. Christina Errington – you don't have to be doing paid sex work to have men beat you or refuse to use protection.
There are sex workers like Belle who do not get beaten, raped or murdered. There are women who have never prostituted themselves who have been beaten, raped and murdered.
Stigmatising and outlawing sex work is like swatting the fly and leaving a vast misogynist turd to fester. The turd just attracts more flies and you're back where you started.
The debate about the "glamourisation of prostitution" just obscures the real issues, and slut-shames sex workers and not the dangerous, abusive clients.
I'm pro-legalisation for reasons of realpolitik. Criminalising prostitution makes life dangerous for the women who do that work. It doesn't stop demand. It doesn't solve any big problems.
We still need a much bigger social revolution to change the way that women in general (sex workers aren't some special caste) are perceived and treated. I have a feeling that if that were ever achieved, people would probably be disinclined to pay for sex, but till then, prostitutes should feel that they have the same right to report crimes against them as any other person. And that means legalisation.
@missdelite: Because she has stated many times that she was never beaten.
As a feminist, I find it pays to take women's experiences seriously, whatever they might be. I don't like to tell them that they're silly females and have got it all wrong, especially when I haven't been through the same things as them.
@bowleserised: I agree it's possible to be an escort and not get beaten, raped or murdered, but what bothers me about Belle's account of her stint as "enjoyable" is that it glosses over so many other issues that crop up doing this kind of work. Issues as old as the relationship history between men and women but amplified to the nth degree between prostitute and client. Namely issues of self-respect, what constitutes sexuality, expectations men have women - be they false or realistic - etc. etc.
Basically, I wonder if she's told the whole story - and if she hasn't - would we respect her if she did?
@bowleserised: This is a series of bad arguments. "It doesn't stop demand" could be used to justify legalizing any number of things, from heroin to the slave trade.
And sex work isn't stigmatized because people are prudes, it's stigmatized because women who do it are frequently abused and mistreated or forced into it. It spreads disease, it encourages men to treat women like objects, and it frequently if not always damages the women who participate in it at least psychologically. The laws are to protect women, not men. If they stop prostitutes from reporting crimes, that's really awful, but it's certainly the lesser of two evils.
@Perhaps Not: Try reading manifestoes of prostitutes unions which argue for legalisation. Some women are trafficked into sex work, and some forced, but equally, some protest for the right to do it.
I've spent the last six months on and off researching sex laws and stats (and when you investigate those, you realise that because of the stigma and illegality, there simply are no reliably gathered numbers for sex work). I've talked to hookers, to social and health workers, to brothel owners, to anthropologists and historians who specialise in the subject. I've read more than my fair share of hooker memoirs.
I find the notion of paid sex icky, but I'm not going to tell women who want to do sex work (and these women exist, and no, they're not just the high-end girls. Go investigate Punternet or similar and see) that they must be dupes who are only doing what a man told them to do.
And as for sex work spreading disease, there are plenty, but plenty of working girls who have a considerably stricter approach to safe sex than women who are having casual, unpaid sex. For obvious reasons.
@bowleserised: Furthermore, for those women forced into the work, kidnap, rape, pimping, assault and drug dealing are already crimes in any legal system (except NZ where pimping is allowed).
If people get away with these crimes, it's because of the way that the sex business runs underground, and because of poor policing.
@bowleserised: Actually, I think it's because when you create a system with legal room for prostitution, there is necessarily more of it and it becomes impossible to regulate. Seriously; how on earth would you regulate legal prostitution in America? Las Vegas would look like Bangkok. How do you prosecute a bad john who rapes a girl? Where's the evidence? How, in short, do you make sure nobody is being exploited? You never, ever could. They can't do it in Amsterdam and they sure wouldn't be able to do it here in wacky libertarian land. And @bowlserised, why the emphasis on want? I hope my local law enforcement officer is going to tell people who want to exceed the speed limit by fifty miles an hour that it's not their choice. You and I find paid sex "icky" because it's wrong and tears at the fabric of a free society, which is based on respectful mutual relationships between men and women. Publicly commodifying those relationships makes us savages.
@bowleserised: And further more, they're vulnerable to losing custody of their kids.
It's already hard for sex workers to be taken seriously by the police if they've been raped. Legalisation would help. Legalise it, and provide support for those who want to leave.
If you go back to my original post, you'll see that I'm not denying that there's a lot wrong with society, and the issues of the commodification of women, and especially women from poorer countries working in the west. But when you criminalise working girls it's the working girls who suffer, not the johns. And the johns aren't deterred by illegality.
Which is why I said that I think there needs to be a bigger social, feminist revolution that actually works.
@bowleserised: Again, I really think there's plenty of evidence that the johns are deterred by enforced illegality, see also file under Thailand (where, I know, prostitution is "illegal," but only in name).
You're arguing that powerful, free-agent women choose to enter prostitution and then bemoaning the fact that criminal behavior keeps them from getting better jobs - isn't that the same with any criminal activity? If these women are so empowered, why do they have to hook? "I just wanted to" is not a good reason - it's illegal and dangerous, so you know, sorry, you're SOL on this one. If, on the other hand, some women can't help becoming prostitutes, what we really need is a mechanism that allows them to ease back into society, emphasizing that they're nonviolent, trustworthy people, rather than public advocacy for a dangerous and immoral profession that hurts its practitioners worse than anyone else.
We're obviously not going to agree on this, but I'm curious: what do you do that you've been researching sex work for the last six months? It sounds interesting.
@Perhaps Not: I'm a journalist. Much of that research was done in Amsterdam, where, instead of enforcing existing laws to create safe workspaces, the authorities are simply shutting them down. This doesn't stop prostitution, just scatters it, often to places beyond the reach of social/health workers.
Some women see no incompatibility between hooking and being empowered. Some don't want to leave the business. Some do.
I'm arguing for sex workers to be seen as individuals, and given the right to claim their own experiences as true. You seem to be intent on making people whom you see as vulnerable into criminals. Which of us is being paradoxical?
@bowleserised: Oh right. Your opinion of this is similar to mine and I thought it may have been an environmental thing. There seems to be a lot less stigma towards sex work over here which may contribute to my attitude of "let them do whatever it is they choose".
@Mnemosyne: The NZ system does seem to work really well, although I'm puzzled that pimping is legal. I haven't looked into the Kiwi situation in enough depth to know if that just means it's ok to be a brothel madame etc, or if it's simply the only way to get out of the legal difficulties of defining who benefits from "immoral earnings". (ie if you're on the game and you buy your boyfriend a car, is he somehow your pimp?)
@Mnemosyne: I hoped that was the case. Thank you! I'm Holland they're very keen on pimping being illegal (although they dont' seem to be able to police it)
There are things that I don't understand about *some* people who enter sex work (especially prostitution). I don't understand why middle to upper middle class (sometimes upper class) women enter these professions. These are women who should have a stable income, social/personal support, and are otherwise not really wanting for anything. It just boggles my mind that women who aren't in desperate need for money would wake up one day and say "hmm, I want to be a prostitute/stripper/whatever." I understand when someone doesn't have any other recourse but to be a prostitute (because of factors due to race, class, social status, etc.) But, why do it just so you could get designer clothes/shoes or expensive crap that you can do without? I can't help but think that something went wrong with that person (either bad parents, abuse (?), shoddy/compromised morals, etc.).
@Evie Havok: I think Brooke did it because it was a way for her to put herself through her PhD program in a way that was lucrative, flexible, and tax free. For some women in some situations it can be a very convenient job, that you can do on your own time as much or as little you like, that pays far far better than almost any other part time job available to students. I grew up in a middle to upper middle class family, have a higher degree, a professional job and a husband and the prospect of doing sex work or sexy dancing to help pay my loans and my rent still enters my mind on a relatively regular basis. I think it is actually more attractive to women of higher socio economic status because we tend to be better able to control working conditions, be choosier about clients, and command higher rates than women who have fewer work options.
@Evie Havok: I can't explain why, but I think of prostitution and stripping/dancing differently when it comes to this. I know quite a few middle class women who, while in college, did some stripping for extra money. They had enough from their families to cover tuition and basic necessities, but they found stripping an easy way to get some extras. I remember raising my eyebrow a bit at it, but I wasn't really shocked. On the other hand, if I heard the same women had been involved in prostitution to make extra money, I would be taken aback. Yes, both are using your body to make money by giving pleasure to others, but something about stripping being less "hands-on" makes it seem different to me. Or, this could just be my own bourgeois morality talking.
@J.D.Regent: in fact if I am honest with myself the only reason I do not do it, you know, "every once in a while" is because of the stigma and because my husband wouldn't like it. Which to my own ear sound like potentially fucked up reasons not to do things.
@Evie Havok: So, being in science, I really cannot believe that she won't be judged harshly for having done this. There's already a lot of sexism if you look; anyone reviewing her grants, etc is going to know about this. I have a hard time believing this won't affect how she's treated in some way. On the other hand, she must be making quite a bit of money from the show and book, so who needs grants.
@J.D.Regent: Hehe, we've been talking about this all the time recently, but one thing I picked up on here: at the high-end level of prostitution, though, unconventionally attractive women don't have that option. Or at least consider themselves to, and I bet most escort agencies would agree.
@J.D.Regent: I don't know your situation, of course, but in what universe is not prostituting yourself because your husband would be uncomfortable with it "fucked up"? Sounds entirely reasonable to observe your husband's preferences when it comes to fucking other people.
@Evie Havok: I would guess that middle to upper class women are in the minority, but because they have the education to write well and sometimes have media connection we hear from them more often than the numbers would say we would. There are a whole bunch of "risk" behaviors that more well off people are less likely to engage in because they worry it will hurt their later prospects. An example is early sex- middle class kids are more likely to delay sex in part because it might mean they can't go to college and they know it. (There is data on this).
There are also some women who enjoy the thrill of it. I've known a couple of girls who stripped short term because it was edgy and sexy.
The other thing I've noticed is going to be really unpopular with some Jezzies, but it seems to me past sexual abuse can play a role. A year or two ago I read a bunch of sex worker blogs and I was really, really surprised by how many mentioned a rape in their teenage years. I only read ten or so, but something like 8 of them mentioned being raped as teenagers at least once. There were multiple gang rapes. Maybe it was just the blogs I happened to read, but it was really disporportionate.
@clevernamehere: Re the sex abuse point: it strikes me that this is true of a high proportion of women, too. One of the biggest revelations of spending time on feminist and quasi-feminist sites on the web: how many of us have been raped, and how very very few of us have reported it.
@EarlyGrey: I would concur, and was about to write something similar. It sounds considerate, not fucked-up, to take into account one's spouses feelings about fucking others for money.
@EarlyGrey: no i dont think it's fucked up not to do sex work bc I am married, its just that when I typed out that comment it sounded strangely...you know...conformist and man pleasing to me. Of course, in reality, it isn't, it makes sense and is sane and respectful, but monogamy is not necessarily without patriarchal taint either. I guess my point, insofar as I had one, is just that I don't get out of patriarchy and questionable motivations whether I choose to do sex work or not do it.
@PilgrimSoul: yeah, if I were to enter sex work I would definitely be trading on my privilege on multiple levels. Of course, I do that in my day job too.
@acookieaday: The only sensible thing to do would be for her to get together with some other escorts and broadcast the names of all the johns working in her field.
@PilgrimSoul: It really seemed a lot higher than women in general. There were posts where the blogger listed everytime they had been raped pre-sex work and 10-20 different men were mentioned. It seemed really disproportionate, though it obviously could be just chance.
Will young women copy Belle De Jour? I hope they copy the real her, which means GETTING AN EDUCATION and BECOMING A SCIENTIST.
I feel like we are having the Jenna "once a porn star always a porn star" Jameson discussion again. The woman has done more with her life than work as a prostitute, and I'd say she sounds like a very accomplished woman. Are we suddenly to ignore everything she's done simply because she spent a few years as a call girl?
You know, I have my issues with "chosen" sex work, but not because I think women irreparably lose self-respect. Other people's fucked-up attitudes about female sexual purity should not have anything to do with self-respect, and when they do that's patriarchy.
The box on her head is a cookie tin from KaDeWe in Berlin and is, according to Nancy Reddin-Kienholz, intended to show that she can cut her emotions off and remain detached from her work. #thehoerengracht
"Now that she's out in the open, Magnanti could point out that her writing doesn't "glamorize" prostitution — it merely reveals that for some women, sex work can have big payoffs and manageable risks." I'm sorry, but this makes me angry. As a former $500 call-girl from Chicago, I would beg to differ about the 'manageable risks'. Just because the clients wear white collar does not mean they without danger. And there is always the threat of being busted by cops hiding in another room watching you on a video screen. Most importantly, even now, 20 years later, I still have trouble trusting men. And there are other countless forms of residue from that life from something as small as not wanting to wear sexy lingerie for my boyfriend because it feels like being with a trick to over-reacting in terrible ways when a man I don't know touches me even in the most casual manner. Wounds come from in all shapes and sizes and if this woman was able to move on without any then I am impressed. However, just because she does not share any darker stories, does not mean that they didn't happen. The woman is selling a book and a blog. Prostitution is never glamorous! It's hard work, dirty work, often sad work, sometimes erotic work but it is work and it's rarely pretty no matter how much you are paid to do it. #belledejour
11/19/09
I paid my way through my degree escorting, and therefore find it extremely difficult to be objective on this subject as I have zero respect for the men who use these services after dealing with them. Give women all the choice in the world to do sex work, but if you don't do something about the men, they'll never completely be in control.
Ironically I was never raped until after I stopped escorting, but it fucked with my emotions in a million other ways that I would never have expected when I started. I thought I was tough as old boots and could handle it. Due to ill health I couldn't really do any other job with extremely long hours to make up the shortfall in my income, but I would have preferred even strip club work as I found escorting desperately lonely as much as anything else.
The money helped me immensely, but in the long term, I think being in debt would have been better for me. I just don't think anyone should leap into sex work of any kind without thinking it through very careful about how it will affect them now in the future (assuming they have the choice in entering sex work).
I've been honest about my past and it has bitten me hard on the arse. I'm not sure I regret the escorting, but I definitely regret telling anyone about it (which is why I'm posting on the internet about it. Ehem...)
11/19/09
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11/19/09
Also, as always, who the hell do these people think these women are servicing? Aliens? Foreigners? Johns are your fathers, brothers, sons and spouses (ideally future ones). Won't somebody please think of the male children and their self-respect? It's one thing to get paid for having sex, but to stoop so low as to pay someone for it? How degrading! You're out your virtue and a few quid.
11/19/09
And I'm referring to ordinary, "respectable" men (fathers, brothers, sons and spouses) - not creepy guys who scare off women.
11/19/09
11/19/09
In my experience, they're usually over 50 years old, married at least 15 years, have kids and no longer sleeping with their SO (for numerous reasons). They don't frequent bars or clubs or sleep around at work and are not the type to score with women in a public place like a grocery store.
However, they still want sex, so they see hiring an escort as their only option. Of course, there are those who do it for sport or to indulge in a fetish - but that's a whole other ball game.
It's easy for us to look at these men and say "Why don't you work it out with your wife or divorce her?", but the reality of their situation is oftentimes more complicated than that. Or at least, that's the way they see it.
11/19/09
I love peas.
11/19/09
11/19/09
I eat my peas with honey
I've done it all my life
It makes the peas taste funny
But it keeps them on my knife.
11/19/09
There are sex workers like Belle who do not get beaten, raped or murdered. There are women who have never prostituted themselves who have been beaten, raped and murdered.
Stigmatising and outlawing sex work is like swatting the fly and leaving a vast misogynist turd to fester. The turd just attracts more flies and you're back where you started.
The debate about the "glamourisation of prostitution" just obscures the real issues, and slut-shames sex workers and not the dangerous, abusive clients.
I'm pro-legalisation for reasons of realpolitik. Criminalising prostitution makes life dangerous for the women who do that work. It doesn't stop demand. It doesn't solve any big problems.
We still need a much bigger social revolution to change the way that women in general (sex workers aren't some special caste) are perceived and treated. I have a feeling that if that were ever achieved, people would probably be disinclined to pay for sex, but till then, prostitutes should feel that they have the same right to report crimes against them as any other person. And that means legalisation.
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
For every woman who admits to it, there are legions more who don't.
11/19/09
As a feminist, I find it pays to take women's experiences seriously, whatever they might be. I don't like to tell them that they're silly females and have got it all wrong, especially when I haven't been through the same things as them.
11/19/09
Basically, I wonder if she's told the whole story - and if she hasn't - would we respect her if she did?
11/19/09
And sex work isn't stigmatized because people are prudes, it's stigmatized because women who do it are frequently abused and mistreated or forced into it. It spreads disease, it encourages men to treat women like objects, and it frequently if not always damages the women who participate in it at least psychologically. The laws are to protect women, not men. If they stop prostitutes from reporting crimes, that's really awful, but it's certainly the lesser of two evils.
11/19/09
I've spent the last six months on and off researching sex laws and stats (and when you investigate those, you realise that because of the stigma and illegality, there simply are no reliably gathered numbers for sex work). I've talked to hookers, to social and health workers, to brothel owners, to anthropologists and historians who specialise in the subject. I've read more than my fair share of hooker memoirs.
I find the notion of paid sex icky, but I'm not going to tell women who want to do sex work (and these women exist, and no, they're not just the high-end girls. Go investigate Punternet or similar and see) that they must be dupes who are only doing what a man told them to do.
And as for sex work spreading disease, there are plenty, but plenty of working girls who have a considerably stricter approach to safe sex than women who are having casual, unpaid sex. For obvious reasons.
11/19/09
If people get away with these crimes, it's because of the way that the sex business runs underground, and because of poor policing.
11/20/09
11/20/09
11/20/09
Women wind up with criminal records.
You know what happens when they want to leave sex work and do something else?
They can't, because they have criminal records and a gap in their CVs.
You know what traps women in sex work? Not being able to earn money elsewhere.
11/20/09
It's already hard for sex workers to be taken seriously by the police if they've been raped. Legalisation would help. Legalise it, and provide support for those who want to leave.
If you go back to my original post, you'll see that I'm not denying that there's a lot wrong with society, and the issues of the commodification of women, and especially women from poorer countries working in the west. But when you criminalise working girls it's the working girls who suffer, not the johns. And the johns aren't deterred by illegality.
Which is why I said that I think there needs to be a bigger social, feminist revolution that actually works.
11/20/09
You're arguing that powerful, free-agent women choose to enter prostitution and then bemoaning the fact that criminal behavior keeps them from getting better jobs - isn't that the same with any criminal activity? If these women are so empowered, why do they have to hook? "I just wanted to" is not a good reason - it's illegal and dangerous, so you know, sorry, you're SOL on this one. If, on the other hand, some women can't help becoming prostitutes, what we really need is a mechanism that allows them to ease back into society, emphasizing that they're nonviolent, trustworthy people, rather than public advocacy for a dangerous and immoral profession that hurts its practitioners worse than anyone else.
We're obviously not going to agree on this, but I'm curious: what do you do that you've been researching sex work for the last six months? It sounds interesting.
11/20/09
Some women see no incompatibility between hooking and being empowered. Some don't want to leave the business. Some do.
I'm arguing for sex workers to be seen as individuals, and given the right to claim their own experiences as true. You seem to be intent on making people whom you see as vulnerable into criminals. Which of us is being paradoxical?
11/21/09
11/21/09
#tips
11/21/09
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11/22/09
#tips
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
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11/19/09
There are also some women who enjoy the thrill of it. I've known a couple of girls who stripped short term because it was edgy and sexy.
The other thing I've noticed is going to be really unpopular with some Jezzies, but it seems to me past sexual abuse can play a role. A year or two ago I read a bunch of sex worker blogs and I was really, really surprised by how many mentioned a rape in their teenage years. I only read ten or so, but something like 8 of them mentioned being raped as teenagers at least once. There were multiple gang rapes. Maybe it was just the blogs I happened to read, but it was really disporportionate.
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
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11/19/09
I feel like we are having the Jenna "once a porn star always a porn star" Jameson discussion again. The woman has done more with her life than work as a prostitute, and I'd say she sounds like a very accomplished woman. Are we suddenly to ignore everything she's done simply because she spent a few years as a call girl?
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
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