Jezebel 
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New York, 1:18 PM
Tue Dec 15
69 posts in the last 24 hours
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11/21/09
"Why didn't you say no? Why didn't you fight him off?' When people ask such a question...do they have a picture in their mind of what's happening? Say no, try to fight off someone who is already violent and on edge?
Here's the thing (and this is awful, because I've been hit on by old men or guys who knew I couldn't do shit about it)--where's the difference between an entitled creep and a harmless, if unwelcome (but not lewd) advances? (I guess it's as simple as saying, "sorry, not interested" unless the guy's an asshole.
Obviously, some prick who simply wants to comment on a woman minding her own business, put her in her place for daring to go outside.....not the same thing.
Does anyone know who made those music video with the woman kidnapped in a parking lot?
For the most part, I am repulsed by what I saw in those clips and realize why they're offensive. (I had no idea about the "Dreamworld" series...wow) by stuff in videos, even from R and B singers with otherwise clean records, like Justin Timberlake. (Breaking into an ex's house to gawk at her in the shower....blech). But what about cultures untouched by music videos, gangsta rap, or sex as a marketable product, where violence, harassment, suppression and degradation of women is even worse than it is in the West? Where women have NO sexual sovereignty....because they're more or less chattel? Where the thought of ANY female desire scandalizes? (In almost all those videos, of course, the desire was taken for granted, no matter what the circumstances, and portrayed accordingly...still fucked up, but at least they weren't all videos like that Limp Bizkit shit, of a girl's obvious discomfort presented as erotic.)
In places where women "want it" simply for having vaginas--whether they scream and cry or reciprocate and start making out with the prick who climbed in through the balcony and pushed them against the wall (ugh...that balcony shit is too close to real life in all the wrong ways, J.T., and it doesn't end with two people having a good time)? What then? (I am aware that you don't need porn or cartoonish, hypersexualized presentation of women's bodies to create laws or a culture that subjugates women, but it's still notable.....there are cultures that found Western entertainment/capitalistic use of sexuality as abhorrent, but end up with the same ugly byproducts....women as inhuman, as vessels, and little much else. How? What's the difference, religion instead of capitalism?)
Can critical thinking or empathy exist alongside fantasy? Where's the line?
Can society hammer the principle of mutual consent (REAL consent, not "consent" because someone is too afraid to piss a guy off when he's made he's mind up and ready to start swinging, or too intoxicated to say "no") and still make porn? (Not that I don't have reservations about porn...I hate it, and that's just dealing with the stuff that's now mainstream....Playboy looks like GQ magazine compared to the shit you can find easily these days, including the gamut of simulated child porn.)
To some extent I guess it depends on how bad the fantasy is, but I just might be setting the bar low; I don't think Justin's videos were the nastiest or most incredulous in there by a long shot, and that's saying something. I see videos as just that--fiction used to sell CDs. Is that too dismissive? (Those videos involving kidnapping...fuck that "fiction." I'm sorry if I sound hypocritical, but that had a visceral reaction in the way JT's stupid stuff did not.)
Can you make a video where a popstar breaks into a beautiful stranger's bedroom, makes out with her before her boyfriend comes back, and not diminish all the rapes that begin with some cretin crawling into some poor woman's window?
When does art (or trash with little artistic value that's nevertheless entertaining) cross the line and give people an excuse to be violent? What about books like "Lolita?"
11/21/09
11/21/09
Why, why, WHY ONLY IN COLLEGE? What about people who DON'T go to college? Hell, this is a public health issue!
I want to bang my head against the desk. What a low bar we set for ourselves, as a country, a culture, a legal system, a society, a species.
11/23/09
Art and entertainment are not made in a vacuum. One single video does not give everyone license to be violent; however, there are plenty of other media and people who reinforce the message that violence is sexy and men have the right to violate women.
11/23/09
I used "Lolita" because it alternately disgusts, draws sympathy (arguably for both Lolita AND Humbert, occasionally, by virtue of the fact that he's telling the story from his point of view), and seduces (as the best art will), even if the the language that "seduces" is ultimately describing something immoral/coming from a narrator who is immoral.
The music video has no purpose but to seduce. Couldn't you argue that what "Lolita" and a shitty music video share in common is that they eroticize something illicit to draw and fascinate the viewer? (Though you could still argue that Nabakov purposely presents Humbert as a villain...those videos just seek to make kidnapping or forcing a model up against a wall titillating. There is no moral counterpoint, implicit or otherwise, in the videos. But does there HAVE to be a break in the fantasy for people to know it's just that--fiction?)
I realize--the comparison might be too easy. I wonder if "Lolita" had ended with Dolores simply running away and ending up barefoot and pregnant at 18 (in other words, worse off than she might have been had she stayed with her mother), it would have had the same effect, without Humbert's confession of explicit remorse.
I agree with your ultimate conclusion--that art does not exist in a vacuum--but I wonder how stupid or impulsive people have to be, that they're too delusional, oblivious or impulsive to tell the difference between music videos and real life, or interactions with actual people.
When it comes to sex, they'd argue, why should they feel hindered? Is it that the "fantasy" sold to them just legitimates something they'd want to do anyway? Again--look at cultures that find our hypersexualized entertainment industry abhorrent, where women are treated even worse than they are here, in theory (no laws to half-assedly enforce...or ignore, as here) OR in practice.
11/21/09
-a bunch of football players suggesting that all rape cases are made up because women want to take them to court to either:
a) get their money (??? ... I don't know, but students at my school are very obsessed with "THEIR" money, which is, of course, their parents. Apparently, women and Barack Obama are the main threat to all "THEIR" hard work and determination in being lazy fuckers who get C-'s in everything and siphon off the funds of their parents)
or
b) get back at them for having sex with them
-the same bunch of football players suggesting that any woman who drinks publicly "is asking for it"
-a slew of victim-blaming from all involved demographics (save for the ones with brains and souls)
-absolutely no constructive discussion whatsoever. I think it could have been, if the reps from our counseling center would have just taken a stand and cut down on all the assery, but we ran out of time before they even got a chance to talk, and they didn't respond to individual comments at all, regardless of how blindingly offensive they were. I don't know why they thought that this was sound; it just makes them look uncaring (not because they agreed with the douchebags but because they seemed so indifferent). And, while I know that they actually are your best resource here if you have been raped, they certainly didn't present themselves as such during the presentation.
We also had to sit in on a skit-and-response session on tolerance, particularly regarding race and sexual orientation, that was equally infuriating. Blech. The flashbacks alone make my head and heart hurt.
11/21/09
Thank you for writing this (obviously, I wish you had a nicer story to tell). It makes me INCREDIBLY sad....the idea that when we finally get to something like this, even though it's SO important and we should treat this like a public health issue--not something restricted to education (to college students, no less....this should fucking start in middle school)....we go half-assed.
At least it revealed a "high risk" group. Jesus. Why would the curators of the program bother if they only get through to a limited audience--most likely, those who most feared sexual assault (and now feel helpless) in the first place? A comprehensive program wouldn't be foolproof--one where the leaders don't counteract the bullshit thinking that supports rape among the students, when it's posed to them pointblank and for other students to hear (and maybe absorb, absent rebuttal)? Why bother at all? What a time to be unprepared.
I wasn't wildly satisfied with my Student Health Center's (optional, if I remember) orientation on a number of issues, including rape, but at least it tackled two things: 1) girls, it's not your fault, but be wary--watch your drink, don't get so drunk you can't see straight and need a frat guy asshole you just met to carry you back to the dorm, keep track of your friends, and come to the Health Center if something goes wrong and 2) guys, the so-drunk-you-end-up-on-the-NJ-turnpike-naked lessons apply to you too; you are responsible for YOUR behavior and aren't entitled to sex simply because someone is in a compromised state, and if someone is too drunk to stand or consent (or say no...or fend you off when you've decided you don't give a shit what they say), then back off.
The thing is...that's where it ended. Two drunk students, one with morning regrets (no specific consent, no specific refusal to sex the night before), and a drunk guy who claimed he was too drunk to register or remember a thing. Maybe I'm too easily persuaded...they could have done better, I guess, but they could have done a hell of a lot worse.
The cast was composed of male and female upperclassmen who they seemed intelligent enough, and like they wanted to be there. We had a decent Student Health/Peer Counseling Center.
11/21/09
11/21/09
11/22/09
First of all, you can't break put a poster up that says, "don't be an asshole and rape" because many men (and even men who rape) do not understand the dynamics that make rape what it is. the person who has sex with a woman when she is under the influence (like the poster above) may very well think nothing of it simply because she wasn't kicking and screaming (a scenario of rape that popular myth will have young men believe is the ONLY type of rape). what feels obvious to you and me when it comes to rape is not obvious to young males, or even the females who ARE raped. (believe me, i am in this field and there ARE males who, for example, believe that it's not rape simply because she's your girlfriend). However, breaking rape down into situations like those in the posters allows it so that the definition of rape is no longer misleadingly narrow for young men and puts it into to contexts that they may find actually find themselves in. in other words, you have to meet young men where they are at. you can't expect to reverse years of sexism, popular myth, rape culture and violence all in one poster. start small
and why MASCULINITY? the posters are FOR MEN. the posters have to appeal to masculinity because, well, that's what young men relate to. many of them understand themselves as men, not as potential or actual rapists and, unfortunately, not as women's allies. Believe me, after years of working with young men, prevention workers quickly caught on that young men who are approached about rape in an abrupt manner ( "don't rape!") are inclined to automatically turn their ears off. however, by reaching out to a personal sense of masculinity (i.e. "MY strength"), you give them a language and context through which they can relate the issues to themselves.
No the posters aren't perfect. If you want more explanation see my comment below in response to lavendermint.
dear lord, i hope somebody reads this.
11/23/09
The slogan that made me feel most uneasy was (and I paraphrase because I can't remember it exactly) "She didn't want to so I decided to stop"... Why should HE get to decide to stop? That's my point, the decision shouldn't be in his hand. It should be "SHE decided to stop, and I respected that."
11/21/09
11/21/09
"Based on research showing that fraternity men have a higher likeli-
hood of committing sexual assault than other college men..."
and,
"Hypothesis one was that men who joined a fraternity would be more
likely to commit sexual assault during their first year of college than
men who did not join a fraternity. This hypothesis was confirmed. ..during their first year of college, men who joined fraternities com-
mitted significantly more sexual assaults than men who did not join
fraternities."
Secondly, are these statistics based on self-reporting?
Yes, they used the The Sexual Experiences Survey (SES) (Koss & Gidycz, 1985) which I don't think actually uses the word "rape"
11/21/09
11/21/09
11/21/09
If I am grateful for anything at my (wildly overpriced, private urban) university, it's that the peer counseling center had a lot of information and courses on this stuff....and workshops on everything from sex toys to coming to family members.
11/21/09
I was a cocktail waitress in bar where we were all super close friends very playful and goofy with each other.
One night I was wearing a new push up bra and the other waitress said, "Oh you are just so hot I can barely stand it!" and pretended she was going to grab my boobs and the doorman hugged me and dipped me then pretended to maul me. A total stranger walked up and just grabbed my boobs and said something like "This looks like fun!" and started to flip up my skirt.
I was too dumbfounded to respond, the doorman grabbed him by the back of the shirt and said, "Did you lose your mind? What is wrong with you?" The whole time he was being escorted out, he kept yelling, "How was I supposed to know she didn't want it?"
A couple customers gave the doorman crap that night and told him, "Seriously, how WAS he supposed to know he couldn't do that?" and my friend was like "I don't know, because it's assault?"
11/21/09
That is fucking unbelievably horrible (but not unbelievable...I wish it was) and I'm sorry you have to go through that.
"How did I know she didn't want it?" What the fuck entitles you to put your hands on a stranger, you piece of shit? Or the waitress, or the doorman (who, at the very least, defended you, although grabbing you and hugging you....kind of in the same category, yes)? Why are other people's bodies items on display to be impulsively grabbed?
She's wearing a push-up bra....she MUST want every fucking stranger that passes her by. And strangers, in front of you, saying, "Well, she's DRESSED like that, of course she wants it....HAS to have it, from ANYONE."
Jesus Christ....
11/21/09
11/21/09
Same here. I'm short, I have fuck-all chance of defending myself....even the relatively mild (obnoxious, humiliating, but at least, not obscene) comments make my blood turn to ice. Not to discount the experiences of women who don't feel easily physically overwhelmed, the humiliation, but at those moments...I curse myself for something I have little control over (stature) and something that shouldn't be my problem. Knowing how to defend yourself is great--feeling like you HAVE to prepare, because it seems increasingly likely that you'll be grabbed, mugged, accosted by someone who is inevitably taller than you, heavier, stronger is in a car while you're on foot, and catches you off your guard? Infuriating...and frightening. And depressing as hell.
11/21/09
Seriously though, it's absolutely awful. Even when I tell my male friends, they have a laugh about it. Wth how is me being intimidated funny at all? I suppose they truely don't understand how frightening it can be to be constantly harassed. Oh and it doesn't help that I'm tiny and have large breasts, well honestly I MUST want to be harassed because I CHOSE to grow them that big =/ those men have got me on that one!
11/21/09
---
18-year-old Margarita Vargas said."I’m like ‘We should call the cops because that’s the right thing to do.’ I didn’t think about it twice." Vargas said she called police because she would want someone to do the same if she ever was in that situation. " -- [feministwhore.wordpress.com]
Margarita was the only person who called the police about the gang rape happening in Richmond on the night of the dance. "She would want someone to do the same if she ever was in that situation" - That's exactly why we need to change the focus to educate men about male on male rape, because men need to be able to imagine themselves in the victims shoes.
11/21/09
11/21/09
God, I wish this wasn't normal...unless people can't hear or see it, how can they not be bothered to at least use their phone or scream for help?
Just to play devil's advocate...what if you were late for work on that basis (I know...who gives a shit, still call the police) and your boss blew you off, even after you proved you were late for that reason? Similar things have happened before yes? It might not be a convincing concern, but that's probably a common reason--people have places to go, people to see, jobs to get to, and that's all they're focused on. A "no, no, please" doesn't register.
Do you know what happened to that girl?
11/21/09
11/22/09
11/22/09
I hate that we have these thoughts...the burden falls on one person who already feels shaken up, not the crowd, who either ignores it or makes the situation worse.
I hate to say it, but there are some well-founded fears that might make a person not intervene...if there's legitimate fear of reprisal because an attacker knows me or has seen my face, THEN maybe I could understand not doing anything, but I just cannot imagine calling the police after that. I guess if people are resigned to that shit happening and don't trust the police to protect them, or work to undermine the sources of sexual assault or violence in a neighborhood....why, logically should they care?
But that doesn't seem to be the case in your story. I would have been deathly afraid to do anything else other than call the police, if I thought I might draw the attention of two people who were armed and/or volatile and ready to hurt a witness...just one of a series of daily instances that makes me feel impotent rage and fear.
You did more than most would (you saw that "most" at the time were indifferent for yourself), and that's noble.
#tips
11/21/09
Furthermore, there is more to the grant than just reaching out to incoming students--it also requires that campus law enforcement and judicial affairs officers be trained specifically on these issues.
Most schools, however, did not focus on risk reduction as their main method of prevention. In fact, risk reduction was something that was looked down upon not only in the field, but also amongst grantees. Grant money wasn't even allowed to be used for things like putting in new lights on dark paths or other ineffective measures. What was a common tool of prevention was bystander intervention geared towards men's groups.
I can tell you that from visiting the colleges and universities receiving this money, a successful program is completely left up to the atmosphere on the campus, but more so how administrators respond to the very idea of preventing sexual assault, dating violence and stalking on their campuses. So many administrators would rather bury their head in the sand than acknowledge that a problem even exists, lest they frighten the parents of potential students. Someone like Dorothy Edwards, with whom I've had the honor of working with frequently, is a rarity amongst her peers.
You're not going to see any real change occur on college campuses until administrators start accepting that sexual violence is a real problem and start devoting real time and resources to prevent it.
11/20/09
I loved that feeling of being violated all over again.
Better still was the Q&A after wards. I don't remember the name of the group, but they did skits about date rape and the effects, including one where the girl said "No" then "Yes" to all of the foreplay and advances leading up to sex, then only said "Wait!" to penetration. When he's doing his monologue in the police station later, he talks about how he assumed she'd say "Yes" after a while, and she never said "No", she just got quiet, so he thought that meant "yes."
During the Q&A session, a LOT of students -- men and women -- just attacked the group for that particular aspect of the performance. There was a lot of "She was being a tease." and "How was he to know she didn't want it?" and even a few "She deserved it." comments that physically made me ill. Nothing the performers did could stop these students from thinking that the guy had every right to "have sex with" her because she didn't say "No" or "Stop."
Point being, I think college is a little too late to try and get this message out there--I know it's a start, but not when the idea is already ingrained in students that "No means no but silence means Yes."
11/20/09
11/20/09
I think it's appalling that something like that goes on in one of the top universities in the UK - the worst thing is, nobody wants to address it. We have a Women's Officer in the University student union but I have never seen any form of outreach programme that tries to educate the men here that such behaviour is disrespectful and wrong. Ugh.
11/20/09
11/20/09
The entire British concept of "binge drinking ladettes on the pull" doesn't help much either. I think that's the judgmental attitudes thing. And as for poor police training - Jesus Christ! Once I was flashed by a man - he basically took his cock out and started masturbating, while taunting me. I was completely sober, called the police, told them what happened, and they spent the entire time repeatedly asking me if I wasn't sure he was just taking a piss. I was all, "I know a wank when I see one." I know police have a responsibility to interrogate all claims, as do the courts, but there is a definite lack of sensitivity when dealing with issues that involve women who already feel marginalised/ vulnerable due to their experiences.
11/20/09
I think I mentioned before on this site how my mom got flashed and the guy said "you like this," which is obviously referring to his penis, my mom quickly retorted "I've seen bigger" and the guy just quickly walked away embarrassed.
11/20/09
Having said that... there is a huge, noticeable difference in street harassment between NYC and London. When I lived in New York, I would be guaranteed to get harassed at least once per day. Once, a man grabbed my boob on the street. I've had my arse 'accidentally' fondled in the subway and in crowded streets more times than I can tell. Street harassment in London? Very seldom. In fact I can't actually think of an occasion.
I'm not entirely sure what point I am making, except that I have always felt far safer in London than NY, however erroneously.
11/20/09
11/20/09
11/20/09
Literally within the last hour I told a friend of mine, only semi-jokingly, that I tolerate more creepster-level flirtation from guys I find hot than from guys I don't.
And I wonder if in some ways that makes me complicit in our societal acceptance of this kind of behavior toward women.
On the other hand, no one seems cute when he's intimidating me and using his power to assert his control over me and my body. So it's also possible that perception of a guy as attractive hinges on my feeling okay being around him, and not being threatened by it.
On the other other hand, sometimes the element of danger is itself attractive. So what are our responsibilities, as individuals and as a society, to solve these problems and to address these problematic (but complicated and possibly not always completely untrue) assumptions?
11/20/09
I don't know exactly what you mean by "creepster-level flirtation from [hot] guys" Isn't it the part where they try to push past our discomfort what makes their behavior creepy?
At any rate, I think the responsibility rests on men to respect and not objectify or attack us since they have more physical and social power. I don't think you're at fault for perpetuating rapey behaviors.
11/20/09
I watched all the videos, and the hip hop stuff really struck a chord with me. I've been a fan since I was a teenager, and will remain a fan, but this really reminds me how important it is to pay attention to the attitudes reflected in the music I listen to. When I was in high school, everyone was listening to Snoop. The girls I knew (myself included) liked it as much as the boys, but I remember feeling really uncomfortable hearing my boyfriend and male friends singing along to things like "Bitches ain't shit but hos and tricks." You can like the beats and the style, but you can't ignore the message. And that message is really insidious to young women.
This is not an indictment of all the positive hip hop out there, which gives you beats and style without a heavy dose of misogyny. But it does remind me to listen a little harder.
11/21/09
11/22/09