Jezebel 
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New York, 4:43 AM
Wed Dec 2
68 posts in the last 24 hours
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06/22/09
06/22/09
So what if instead of picking the perfect embryo, a woman or a couple decide to get pregnant naturally, but genetically test the fetus, and abort until they get the "perfect" fetus? I have issues with that, the same issues I have with the choice being made before implantation. I don't think the law should limit abortions in this case, but I hope as a society we somehow limit genetic testing on fetuses. It's not about the act of abortion, it's about the result of people choosing the traits they want in children that I think will backfire.
06/22/09
How about we recognize that having a abstinence only sex educations system not only doesn't work, but makes it harder for teenagers to deal with their pregnancies & obtain abortions earlier because we've managed to create a culture of shame around sexuality & it's consequences.
How about we as a society start truly valuing people with disabilities and get serious about accessibility, about respite care, and fully-supported community living so we don't simply judge parents for aborting a fetus because it has a mild disability when, in reality, we as a society disvalue such individuals in virtually every single structure we create. While at the same time recognizing that there are significant quality of life issues that should remain with the parents.
So, Kissling, stop shitting on women who are faced with difficult decisions that are made significantly more difficult because of the larger social structures that are in place.
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On the other hand, I am super conflicted about the idea that there should be no restrictions on abortion whatsoever. People who kill/hurt/cause to suffer babies are right up there with that cat serial killer and puppy skinner in my book, because it takes a special kind of evil to kill or abuse something so relatively defenseless and completely depenendant. I feel little sympathy for women/girls who give birth in bathrooms and drown their babies, or throw them out in trashbags or whatever, I don't care how traumatic birth was or how "unreal" the baby seemed, you don't kill a human being who has no defenses because it scares you. But at what point does a fetus which is ok to abort, become a baby, which is something that it's sick and cruel to murder? I don't think life begins at conception, and I don't think viability is a fair standard, because with technology things are viable very early on. But I also don't think that until the second it is out of the birth canal it's a fetus, and after that it's suddenly a human infant with legal rights and protections. And I've tried to get past this by reminding myself how few abortions happen in the 8th or 9th month, and how many of them involve risk to the mother, or finding out that the fetus won't survive, and that it's not up to me to make moral calls in the handful of other cases, and even if it were, thepeople i'd judge unethical are probably a small minority. But I don't know, lately this feels like an argument I'm making because I know I'm supposed to, not something I actually believe. I think it's wrong to abort for purposes of sex selection. I think it's sad though complicated that abortion is sometimes seen as the default for non fatal birth defects. I think it's complicated that we understand that late term abortion to prevent giving birth to a child who will suffer from a fatal illness is understandable when euthanasia under the same circumstances once the child was out of the birth canal would be a crime. I'm unsatisfied with the idea that in order to be pro-choice we have to wash our hands of all these conversations, and say that any judgment or restriction on abortion is a judgment and restriction on all abortions so it's dangerous to speak of ethics or reservations.
06/22/09
"On the other hand, I am super conflicted about the idea that there should be no restrictions on abortion whatsoever."
But no one is arguing that there should be no restriction on abortion whatsoever.
There are already restrictions on abortion (many! tons depending on what state you live in!).
06/22/09
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06/22/09
With that in mind, the idea of our society reaching a point in which gender is viewed in the same light as a birth defect or developmental disorder frightens the hell out of me. Equating the gender of a fetus as being as undesirable as a debilitating genetic anomaly rings of future problems for society. Should males become less desirable, will we value them less as fully grown humans? Will we look at a sex as a stain on the family? We may say that women are not treated equally now, but this treatment does not compete with an idea of femininity as a stain on the family.
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06/22/09
Certainly there are lots of decisions, a lot of suffering, and a lot of emotional trauma for many women who decide to receive the procedure. But that really isn't ALL women. There are a small percent who abuse their right to a choice and it doesn't seem like such a bad idea to think about ways to prevent those situations from happening. Legally, this would be a nightmare of course.
I am pro choice. Many women who are pro chioce argue that this is THEIR body and THEIR decision. Sure it's your body, but there is a life in there that isn't yours and that needs to be acknowledged.
That being said, with all of the pain, suffering, hunger, overcrowding, and sadness in the world it's hard for me to understand how pro-lifers can devote such a huge proportion of their lives to "saving" babies while caring to little about war, famine, genocide, and political instability that kill thousands of men, women, children, and yes, babies, every day.
06/22/09
Is there room in your pie chart for women who don't "abuse" the choice, yet are not traumatized by it?
Sure it's your body, but there is a life in there that isn't yours and that needs to be acknowledged.
No. This is your belief, and should not be imposed on anyone else.
06/22/09
06/22/09
But it isn't like any other surgery. There is something that is losing its life and I'm not going to dictate what that should mean to other women. If it doesn't bother you, then that's your business. Maybe other ethical issues don't bother me and bother you. But what I'm saying is that it isn't JUST the woman and her body. it's the woman, her body, and a cluster of cells, a, embryo, a fetus, a zygote, what have you. And that life means different things to different people.
06/22/09
06/22/09
Exactly. Being pro-choice embraces this view; we're not forcing anyone to have abortions. The anti-abortion movement does not, and would like to impose their beliefs on the rest of us.
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One woman's crisis of conscience does not an editorial make.
06/22/09
People love to pretend that the vast majority of women haven't considered all of the implications of their decision, but they have. When a woman goes in for an abortion, she knows what she's asking for, she knows why. She has weighed the pros and cons and arrived at a decision. We should respect her decision in the same way that we respect the other medical decisions that adults make for themselves.
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So while @Majrhoulihan's example may not relate directly to abortion, we DO in fact have ethical discussions about other medical procedures, which is what your original post was about.
06/22/09
06/22/09
I don't really have a problem with a doctor saying "You're 32 weeks pregnant with a healthy fetus and you have no medical problems, so I will not give you an abortion." But again, I don't think the government needs to be involved here because (a) I think the problem takes care of itself in that doctors probably wouldn't do it and (b) legislation isn't precise enough to make sure that all women who need abortions can get them.
06/22/09
The cases of brain dead patients are a whole other can of worms - don't get me started. The fact that people can sue to continue to waste resources on people who are already gone fills me with a sort of horror I can't even express.
06/22/09
06/22/09
Unless of course we'd like to go ahead and set up the "ethics commtitee." To make it cost-effective, we can have them debate the moral issues at the core of every woman's medical choices. Should she really be getting that hysterectomy? Does she really have fibromyalgia, or is it just "megrims?" Should she be allowed to have an IUD? Has anyone told her husband?
I'm going to go vomit now.
06/22/09
06/22/09
dr: "hello woman, what can I help you with today?"
woman: "I'm here for an abortion"
dr: "okay. are you here of your own free will?"
woman: "yup"
dr: "okay. let's discuss the procedural options and decide together which will be in the best interest of you and your health."
woman: "thanks doc"
both: "discuss, discuss, decide"
06/22/09
06/22/09
"I think it's important for us to be able to say: When a fetus reaches the point where it could survive outside the uterus, is healthy, and the woman is healthy, and she has had five months to make up her mind, we should say no to abortion. One can and should have compassion for the woman or girl who seeks to end a pregnancy at that late date, but absent severe fetal abnormality, a threat to her life or a clinical diagnosis of serious mental or physical health consequences of continuing the pregnancy, I believe we should say: "I am so sorry. You waited too long. I know this is a difficult decision for you to bear, but we cannot give you an abortion. I will help you any other way I can, but I cannot perform an abortion."
What she said seems ethical. Give women the choice, but don't allow for abuse of a right. Am I less pro-choice because of this belief? I hope not.
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And see my earlier post - no one's waiting five months because they're dumb (unless it's the sort of 'dumb' that comes with a shitty education care of the givernment, or real mental disabilities).
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06/22/09
And if someone has had 3+ abortions is, in someone's eyes, incredibly irresponsible (though it's really not that crazy when you consider most women can get pregnant during about a 20-year span, if they choose to have sex), again, they probably can't be trusted with a child.