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12-Year-Old To Undergo Sex-Change
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slickhop
09/18/09

In reply to 12-Year-Old To Undergo Sex-Change
Katy, please don't describe this story using the same methods/pronouns as a the Daily effing Mail. This could have been written, "A 12 year old from the UK is forced to endure taunts and media circus after bravely deciding to present at school as her self-identified gender."

One of the lines you appear to have paraphrased is this: "The boy, who is said to have repeatedly told his friends he wants to be a girl, could become the world's youngest sex change patient." This is not a direct quote that you've adapted, but a sensationalist phrase used by the Daily Mail.

Please check this out to read about correct pronoun use for trans folks:

[www.feministe.us]
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Her Grace
09/18/09

@slickhop: It's not difficult to not be an asshole.
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Agumen
09/18/09

In reply to 12-Year-Old To Undergo Sex-Change
As a dude, it's almost impossible for me to believe this boy won't regret this.

I realise I'm pretty hardcore conservative about these things, but I hope at some point in puberty he comes around. I also hope he avoids as much bullying in high school as he can, but it will be seriously difficult. One thing is for sure, he's got guts.
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caprette
09/18/09

@Agumen: First of all, the correct pronoun is "she."

Secondly, I'm assuming that this person has felt female for a long time. I think that it will end up being easier for her to go through adolescence as a girl, both physically (developing natural breasts and a female body shape) and mentally (being socialized as a female teenager rather than a male teenager).
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greeneyedfem
09/18/09

@Agumen: "As a dude"?

Here, let me fix that for you:

"As a cisgendered person, I have no idea what this child is experiencing. I cannot imagine wanting to transition, as I have always felt comfortable with my assigned sex. Therefore, I can only imagine regret would follow."

Your experience of your body does not map onto the experience of this child. And yes, as caprette says, please use appropriate pronouns (see also my comment below). It is incredibly painful for trans folks to hear themselves or other trans individuals referred to by the wrong pronoun.
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I_can_still_pitch
09/18/09

In reply to 12-Year-Old To Undergo Sex-Change
One thing I have been reading kind of weirds me out: Why do they force transgender surgery candidates to live as transvestites for a year? It is not the same thing. If I felt I was a woman, I would not want to have to run around for a year in a dress with man parts underneath.How is that "living as a woman?" That makes no sense to me at all. It throws the whole accepted process for being accepted for this type of surgery into question in my opinion.
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Edited by I_can_still_pitch at 09/18/09 1:41 PM I_can_still_pitch was starred

colormeroutine
09/18/09

@I_can_still_pitch: The idea is not just to throw on a dress over your "man parts". You change your name, change your appearance as much as possible, introduce yourself as a woman, use women's bathrooms, ect. In other words, actually get a female experience and evaluate if that's the kind of life you can live forever
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nagumi
09/18/09

@I_can_still_pitch: the idea, simply, is that the person changes their body with hormones, physically altering themselves (breasts grow, body shape changes, etc). Meanwhile, the person works, lives and breathes as female (assuming they're mtf) for a full year. They're not a transvestite, they're a woman. Some TS's believe that this is unfair, but i'd say most agree that it prevents people from making absolutely irreversible changes without a huge life investment.
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Lizard in the Wires - synthesizer signals suspense!
09/18/09

@I_can_still_pitch: There are women who actually keep their "man parts" and they're still women.

And I think a lot of trans people would argue they always lived as whatever gender they felt they belonged in. They've simply at to attempt to pass as the other for most of their lives.
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JilliefromChile
09/18/09

@I_can_still_pitch: Because 'gender' is different from 'sex'. Before they make a more permanent anatomical change to bring somwone's body in line with their identity, they want them to live in that identity to see if it works.
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sassifrassilassi
09/18/09

@I_can_still_pitch: Most transgendered people never go through surgery at all, and they are still "living as a woman/man." The genitals are actually not the biggest part of gender transition. During the trial year, people receive sex hormones which strongly influence both the mind and body. There have been many cases of people changing their minds about surgery after the trial year - either because they feel comfortable keeping their old genitals, or because they've reconsidered their identity.
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Her Grace
09/18/09

@colormeroutine: I wish I could heart you again.
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SusanDeath
09/18/09

In reply to 12-Year-Old To Undergo Sex-Change
Yeah, that was a lovely little story. What with the disrespect for both the situation and the individual. Using the proper pronouns for her now that she's made a personal choice with difficult consequences is really making you look like a bunch of dickholes, Daily Fail. God forbid you treat a person like a GD human begin.
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GilroyGull
09/18/09

In reply to 12-Year-Old To Undergo Sex-Change
What is being overlooked here is that transgendered people don't just decide one day to switch genders; it is that they've always felt they were the other gender.

What you're talking about is not being happy with gender stereotypes, which frankly, most of us aren't happy with.
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joq8
09/18/09

In reply to 12-Year-Old To Undergo Sex-Change
I call bullshit on ''During the special assembly, some confused pupils are reported to have burst into tears''. I would totally buy
'Burst into immature sniggering', 'Burst into cruel mocking', 'Burst into raucous name-calling'. Confused sobbing seems HIGHLY unlikley and smacks of 'but think of the children!' Also, 'are reported ...by? by? Why, the Dail Fail of course.
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kithkin
09/18/09

@joq8: Even "burst into song"' would have been more believable.
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colormeroutine
09/18/09

@joq8: Well I think it's possible that some of the 5 or 6 year olds started crying, but if they did I bet it was as a result of how the administration was wording things. I could see little kids getting confused into thinking that they would change into boys/girls overnight like this kid, or thinking the boy was dead and the girl was his replacement
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joq8
09/18/09

@colormeroutine: If there had been 5 or 6 year-olds, it'd be plausible. But this was an English 'secondary school', i.e. age 12 -16, roughly.
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Edited by joq8 at 09/18/09 12:54 PM joq8 was starred joq8 was unstarred

pond-side-over
09/18/09

In reply to 12-Year-Old To Undergo Sex-Change
My favourite bit of this article is the"unprepared" parents complaining that their kids came home with "inevitable questions". Apparently raising their kid and helping them to respond to the world apropriately is supposed to be somebody else's job.
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joq8
09/18/09

@pond-side-over: Next thing you know those bloody lefty-liberal teachers will be telling them homosexuality ISN'T deviance and that ALL the boys have to cut of their penises and wear dresses. It's PC madness, I tell you!
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JilliefromChile
09/18/09

@pond-side-over: It reminds me of the people who oppose same-sex marriage because 'how do I explain that to my child?" I dunno, talk to them for five minutes? The world doesn't change so you personally can avoid discussing things with your child.
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MizJenkins
09/18/09

In reply to 12-Year-Old To Undergo Sex-Change
Oh honey, I'd hold off on being a girl until after junior high. I wouldn't wish that experience on anybody.
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CurtCole
09/18/09

@MizJenkins: Something tells me it is going to be doubly hard for her either way.
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Triana Orpheus
09/18/09

In reply to 12-Year-Old To Undergo Sex-Change
MSNBC had a special about people who underwent sex change operations and then regretted it. He is extremely young to be making such a huge decision and I hope he doesn't end up hating it.
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Lymed
09/18/09

@Triana Orpheus: She is not undergoing the operation now. She needs to wait until she is 16 to start hormones under UK law.
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nagumi
09/18/09

@Triana Orpheus: So, based on the idea that "he" may regret it, she's a "he" in your book? Really? I'm sure she appreciates your judgement. Irrelevant of how this ends up in 10-20 years, right now she is a girl. She knows it, her parents know it, her shrinks know it, even her bloody teachers know it. but YOU know better.

I really don't mean to be snarky - i hate net snark- but your comment just so full of judgment. Of course she may change her mind - and her pronoun - down the road. So might you. That doesn't mean she WILL.

By the way, out of hundreds and thousands of completed surgeries, there are only a few peer reviewed confirmations of folks who went through the entire process (including hormones, the at least one year of living as their true gender and surgery) who regretted it. Remember, you don't get hormones without 3 months of weekly sessions with a shrink, and you don't get surgery without a year of RLT (real life test) and hormones and letters from two shrinks (though usually nowadays just one).

All this little girl wants to do is be herself. Your use of improper pronouns attempts to deny her that right.

/vent
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Her Grace
09/18/09

@Triana Orpheus: Given they had to troll to find people who would be on their program, I think she'll be just fine.
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City Sparrow
09/18/09

In reply to 12-Year-Old To Undergo Sex-Change
What I don't understand is the people saying "How can such a young child be sure? They should wait a few years!" Now, it's always good to make sure and take the time to do so, but how many of those people were just so sure at a young age that they knew their sexual orientation, or that they felt good as the gender they were? No one scoffs at a 12 year old boy who acts like 12 year old boys are expected to, or tells them to wait and see if they are really comfortable as boys. No one mocks little girls that want to marry boys some day and tells them that after puberty they may feel differently.
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Lizard in the Wires - synthesizer signals suspense!
09/18/09

@City Sparrow: They don't because that's the most likely outcome. GLBT people make up a very small percent of the population.

MY 12 year old self wasn't ready to deal with my interest in girls. So if you had asked me to make a choice then I would now be extremely unhappy. Everyone is different.

I think a much better course of action would be to start teaching that gender isn't dictated by what sort of junk you have, which seems like it would at least make it easier to wait on surgery.
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msAnthrope
09/18/09

@Lizard in the Wires is on Rails:

so true. i was a daddy's girl, but my daddy didn't treat me like a precious fragile princess. i got to do fun things and hang out with my dad. i didn't like any of the stuff my mom did~~ housework, grocery shopping.

so if i had a button i could press at 10, i would've pressed the Boy button just because my experience was that boys did more fun things than women did.

of course, now i'm going through some peri-menopause health issues, and i'm thinking maybe i should've pressed the Boy button after all!
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City Sparrow
09/18/09

@Lizard in the Wires is on Rails: It's not the most likely outcome, but I think that speaks more to societal expectations then what might be a pure biological matter. (Than? Then?)

Your 12 year old self wasn't ready, but was there a real question about it deep down? I am for encouraging children to wait to make such important decisions as far as permanent physical alternations, but sometimes I feel its a matter of coming to accept something rather than "making sure."
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Lizard in the Wires - synthesizer signals suspense!
09/18/09

@City Sparrow: I think you must have misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying kids are most likely to end up straight and with a gender identity within what is considered "acceptable" for their biological sex.

And my 12 year old self didn't really know to question what was going on. I didn't really like boys, but I didn't really have any crushes on girls at that point either. So it seemed normal.

I see 0 problem with her living as the gender she feels she is, and even taking hormones when puberty starts, but I think surgery needs to be later. Her brain (developmentally) just isn't in a place where she can decided these sorts of things.

And I think that waiting would be made easier for her and other trans children if gender was tied to if you had a penis or vagina.

Because there are women out there who have penises, but don't want to change their genitals.
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nagumi
09/18/09

@City Sparrow: i knew long before twelve. I'm now 26, own my own business and am as happy with my decision and as sure of who I am as I was when I first figured it out - at three years old. Yes, that's the first time I told my mom. we had to... rehash the conversation when I was 15 ;)
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Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith
09/19/09

@msAnthrope: well, see, i enjoyed doing 'masculine' stuff just as much as i did 'feminine' stuff when i was a kid, but I prob would never have 'pressed' any 'button', cos I didn't have to; I felt comfortable in my gender, and who I was didn't conflict with how I looked, acted, was treated, or received.
TG isn't about choosing the side that has the most 'fun'- it's about living outwardly as you feel inwardly. Kudos and good luck for this girl (and her family) for having the mana to speak up and out, period. Kia kaha!
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mama_t
09/18/09

In reply to 12-Year-Old To Undergo Sex-Change
Fro the article, it seems that several of the parents were upset because they thought the child was put through unnecessary taunting since no one had prepared the other children. (Apparently the assembly was only after the girl was teased and that teasing was noticed by the teachers) I was happily surprised by that. I feel, unfortunately, that here in the U.S. the parents would have been screaming about a transsexual child being near their kids.
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robotwaste
09/18/09

In reply to 12-Year-Old To Undergo Sex-Change
Maybe this wouldn't be the correct decision, but I would move my family in order to let my child make a completely fresh start as a new gender. Schoolmates can be hard enough as it is. At least in a new school she could start a new life as a girl.
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
09/18/09

@robotwaste: I would too. I'd move districts to get around it, just so she wouldn't run into anyone at a football game or whatever.
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Yahtzii
09/18/09

@robotwaste: I would, too. I am all for teaching tolerance, but the idea of the entire school being called for an assembly just seems like a gateway to nonstop bullying.
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Israfel_angel
09/18/09

In reply to 12-Year-Old To Undergo Sex-Change
And this here: "Stunned teachers called an emergency assembly to explain the sex change to confused pupils who have been told they must now treat the child as a girl."
is part of the problem!

I mean... We can't treat people as PEOPLE obviously. Some are BOY people and Some are GIRL people and one of those types of people is better than the other type.
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
09/18/09

@Israfel_angel: I wonder how much of that is accurate and how much is just Daily Fail.
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annebreal
09/18/09

@Israfel_angel: Snappy adjectives aside, I don't think that's really wrong of them. Not sure how it works in the UK, but most board-certified plastic surgeons here will have different requirements for the reassignment, like living exclusively as that sex for a year or more - dressing, acting, etc - and psychotherapy. It'd be helpful to try and get the other students on board for that, referring to her with the correct pronouns and such, and if nothing else, making it clear that there would be zero tolerance on bullying her during a very trying time.
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BAngieB
09/18/09

@Israfel_angel: Maybe the wording is harsh, but, come on, it would be confusing for the other children if it just happened all of the sudden.
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
09/18/09

In reply to 12-Year-Old To Undergo Sex-Change
I'm torn on this one. On the one hand, I think it's great that her parents are supportive enough to let her get this surgery and the younger you are the easier it is to "pass" as it were. On the other hand, up until I was 13 or 14, I wanted to be a boy desperately. If you'd asked me at 11 or 12 if I wanted a sex change, I probably would have taken it. Would that have been the best thing for me? I don't know, I don't particularly feel attached to being a lady, but I wonder how I would feel now if I had decided to become a boy.

I just worry that she's more gender fluid or might decide it was a mistake later in life. Regardless, I hope she is happy with her decision.
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Luckwouldhaveit
09/18/09

@Zombie Ms. Skittles: Not to lessen your experience, but I imagine this boy's parents did more than just ask him if he wanted to be a girl. I believe that there are psychological examination standards that are followed -- if you had been examined such at 11, the doctors would have found you to not be a proper candidate for gender reassignment.
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
09/18/09

@Luckwouldhaveit: I know (anyway, we can HOPE they wouldn't have found me to be a proper candidate but at that age I was pretty dead set on it and it's hard to know what someone else might have done), but it's just that worry that she could have other things going on or might change her mind later. M to F is pretty irreversible (even moreso than F to M I believe). It's not that I don't think she should be able to live her life the way she chooses or that her parents are doing the wrong thing, it's just a sticky situation all around.
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Zombies make the heart grow fonder
09/18/09

@Zombie Ms. Skittles: I am not sure that a 12 year old is old enough to fully consent to that type of surgery. The complicated emotions which accompany gender transitions and such are not something that I think most 12 year olds are equipped to handle. On the other hand, it is a really difficult thing to deny.
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LaFemme
09/18/09

@Zombies make the heart grow fonder: I agree, and this is a point that has been debated a lot recently with the increase of allowing children to change their gender for themselves. Knowing how kids brains aren't even fully formed by that age, not to mention they are in a period of hormonal flux, I tend to think it should be delayed, but gain that is very difficult to say to your child I imagine.
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colormeroutine
09/18/09

@Zombie Ms. Skittles: Adults are required to live as the gender they want to transition to, full-time, for at least a year before beggining surgery. I'd assume this kid is being required to do the same, if not longer, so they will have plenty of time to evalute what they're getting into and change their mind if necessary.
Gender dissonance very, very rarely goes away with age, and the younger you are when you start the transition the better the results are. My mom did a gyno exam on a patient who had started taking female hormones before puberty, and thus never developed any male secondary sex characteristics. The job was so well done my mom didn't realize what she was seeing until she called another nurse in to help her find the cervix, and the doctor couldn't either. At which point he asked.
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Lymed
09/18/09

@Zombie Ms. Skittles: She is on the path to having surgery, she is not actually having surgery. The Daily Mail article states that under UK law she cannot start hormones until she is 16, and hormones are a step towards surgery.
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CurtCole
09/18/09

In reply to 12-Year-Old To Undergo Sex-Change
That's pretty awesome that they gathered the students together to explain the situation and tried to foster understanding and tolerance. The US should really take note of the UK's record on LGBT issues.
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
09/18/09

@CurtCole: Oh you. Next thing you know, y'all will want the right to marry and then where will we be? Hell, that's where.
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CurtCole
09/18/09

@Zombie Ms. Skittles: Hell, right now I'd settle for equal opportunity in the workplace and housing.
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
09/18/09

@CurtCole: But they let you people be hairdressers and fashion designers! If anything, it's reverse discrimination against the straight dudes!
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spooki
09/18/09

@CurtCole: Except it apparently didn't go so well and had "confused children in tears".

Some of the comments over at the Daily Fail are really appalling.
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CurtCole
09/18/09

@spooki: Ugh, I just read them....
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
09/18/09

@CurtCole: You're a stronger man than I. I don't think my blood pressure could take that.
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girl.of.your.dreams
09/18/09

@spooki: They really are terrible. And so many people keep talking about "sexual orientation." This isn't about her sexual orientation; it's about her gender identity. Grr.
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