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New York, 12:05 PM
Mon Dec 7
33 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of Penny Penny
    12:03 PM

    In reply to Hillary Clinton Gets Involved As Amanda Knox Backlash Begins
    For the people who will boycott Italian holidays and wine, I say thanks. I won't have to deal with you when I travel to Italy and....more wine for me.
     Reply
    Penny was starred Penny was unstarred
    Image of onestrawplz onestrawplz
    10:59 AM

    In reply to Hillary Clinton Gets Involved As Amanda Knox Backlash Begins
    People get unfair trials in the United States all the damn time.

    Not to say that Amanda Knox shouldn't have had a fair trial (of course she should have, and her sex life shouldn't have been treated like damning evidence), but really? Boycotting all things Italian because they convicted an American woman of a crime? There was still evidence against her, and, her ITALIAN boyfriend was also convicted of the same crime, so that leads me to think, at the very least, that this wasn't some grand scheme on the part of the Italians to lock up a sweet innocent American girl.

    Methinks that people care less about the fact that it was clearly a mistrial, than they do about the fact that she's a pretty, blonde, American woman.
     Reply
    onestrawplz was starred onestrawplz was unstarred
    Image of Vermontboy Vermontboy
    11:08 AM

    @onestrawplz: I think it's legitimate news. It's not too common for Americans to be charged and tried for serious crimes overseas. And while there was evidence against her, the Italians did a horrible job of keeping the trial from becoming political show trial.
     Reply
    onestrawplz promoted this comment Vermontboy was starred Vermontboy was unstarred
    Image of onestrawplz onestrawplz
    11:45 AM

    @Vermontboy: I agree that the trial was a circus from the start, 100%. But, I just wish people showed this same amount of concern over the injustices that occur within our own country as well. I'm not saying they have to be mutually exclusive, either. I think it's very valid to be concerned over the fact that her trial was, in fact, very unfair, but it also seems like a big sham, and frankly just seems fishy when people get outraged over this and not over the prejudices and injustices within our own system (and by "our own" I mean American...I assume you're American because of your username, but correct me if I am wrong).

    Also, I don't think it's fair to use the conviction as proof of anti-Americanism in Italy (not directed at you, just in general). I'm currently in Italy, but from what my dad tells me and from what I've read, people are going nuts in the States right now because they think the conviction was just the result of some deeply ingrained anti-Americanism in Europe (which I don't think is the case, at least in my experience...most Italians I've encountered are flattered by my attempts to speak to them in their language, and they're all fascinated by and want to hear all about New York City. Even in the midst of Amanda Knox, I haven't really encountered much hate simply for being an American who is living abroad).

    I think the important thing for us to extract from this case, in terms of traveling abroad, is that it's vital to demand to see someone from the US consulate if you ever fall upon unfortunate circumstances like Amanda's. It's not her fault that the trial played out like it did because she probably either didn't know to do this, or she was under too much duress and it slipped her mind. But, I think if she had sought out help before talking to the police, maybe the trial wouldn't have played out as it had. I've said this a million times on the other threads about Amanda Knox, but it deserves plenty of repetition.
     Reply
    Edited by onestrawplz at 12/07/09 11:47 AM onestrawplz was starred onestrawplz was unstarred
    Image of JinxyMcDeath JinxyMcDeath
    10:41 AM

    In reply to Hillary Clinton Gets Involved As Amanda Knox Backlash Begins
    Here's the thing, she changed her story a thousand times. She was in the house, she wasn't in the house. She heard screams, she never heard screams. She actually pointed the finger at a totally innocent man and claimed he did it, when she knew that he did not. Quite frankly, her sexuality, her lack of crying after the death...none of that had any effect on how I viewed this case. I know that innocent people confess (indeed, I've worked for the Innocence Project), but she has changed her story too many times and too drastically.

    A few months ago Dateline or one of those shows did a story about her and they spoke about how she writes in her diary that she forgives her ex for turning on her, calling him a "silly boy" and saying that she'd take him back in the end. It sounded to me like a classic sociopath. Now, I know a few sociopaths and most of them are pretty sexually-charged, but again, that's not what I think makes her guilty.
     Reply
    JinxyMcDeath was starred JinxyMcDeath was unstarred
    Image of NellMood NellMood
    10:52 AM

    @JinxyMcDeath: In regards to accusing an innocent man, my understanding is that the police asked her to make guesses about who the murderer could have been, and suggested it was a black person. I honestly don't know much about the other parts of her story that changed, but I do think that's significant.
     Reply
    NellMood was starred NellMood was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    11:03 AM

    @JinxyMcDeath: You know what's funny - - - so many of those things (the inappropriate cartwheels, the loud awkward talking, singing in the hallways) are EXACTLY like two girls I went to high school with. They're not sociopaths, they're socially awkward - - and I really think she is too. I think she's really pretty, so people are assuming she just can't be awkward, but after reading the Vanity Fair article about her, I was like, "Karen from HS could TOTALLY be framed for murder." People are just sometimes weird. Doesn't make them murderers.
     Reply
    bluewine promoted this comment CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    11:05 AM

    @NellMood: And, at the time, she was totally non-fluent in Italian. Hypothetical verb tenses are hard enough to comprehend in a foreign language, much less to actually conjugate in the hypothetical yourself.
     Reply
    NellMood promoted this comment CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of JinxyMcDeath JinxyMcDeath
    11:06 AM

    @NellMood: That is her interpretation of events, but if that's how it "started" she certainly created an entire story surrounding that:

    In one of her earlier statements to the police, Knox implicated Patrick Diya Lumumba (the owner of the bar she worked part time) in the murder, saying:[22]

    "I don't remember if my friend Meredith was already there or whether she came later. What I can say is that the two of them (Meredith and Patrick) went off together... Patrick and Meredith went off together into Meredith's room while I think I stayed in the kitchen. I can't remember how long they were in the bedroom together, I can only say that at a certain point I heard Meredith screaming and I was so frightened I put my fingers in my ears. I don't remember anything after that, my head is really confused. I don’t remember if Meredith called out or if I heard thuds because I was upset, but I can imagine what was happening...I'm not sure whether Raffaele was there too that evening but I do remember waking up at his house in his bed and that in the morning I went back to where I lived, where I found the door open."

    That doesn't sound like her hypothesizing if a black guy killed her. It sounds like she was squarely implicating Patrick.
     Reply
    JinxyMcDeath was starred JinxyMcDeath was unstarred
    Image of NellMood NellMood
    11:07 AM

    @CremeBruDont: Right. I mean, I don't know whether she's guilty or innocent, obviously, but this interrogation doesn't exactly seem fair. Didn't they also tell her she had HIV at one point?
     Reply
    NellMood was starred NellMood was unstarred
    Image of Vermontboy Vermontboy
    11:11 AM

    @JinxyMcDeath: People change their stories all the time. If it weren't for the 4th 5th and 6th amendment protections that we have in the US (but which do not exist in Italy), I could get inconsistent stories out of anyone. And I'm just a PD. Cops who are trained to get what they want can nearly always do it. If the cops want inconsistent stories, they'll get inconsistent stories.
     Reply
    bluewine promoted this comment Vermontboy was starred Vermontboy was unstarred
    Image of NellMood NellMood
    11:11 AM

    @JinxyMcDeath: Hmm, okay, interesting. Do you happen to know if this statement was made in English or in Italian and this is a translation?
     Reply
    NellMood was starred NellMood was unstarred
    Image of PilgrimSoul PilgrimSoul
    11:15 AM

    @JinxyMcDeath: But she's pretty and American!
     Reply
    PilgrimSoul was starred PilgrimSoul was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    11:22 AM

    @NellMood: her entire interrogation was done in Italian on both sides, everything you read in English is a translation. I studied Italian for 4 years in high school and I'd bet dollars to donuts I couldn't get my way through an interrogation.
     Reply
    bluewine promoted this comment CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny. Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.
    11:28 AM

    @JinxyMcDeath: Is this a translation? Who provided it? Was it in English or Italian? Did the police release it? And most importantly did she have a lawyer at the time?

    Look, I don't care who she implicated, she could implicate the Pope. What I do care is that she was not give a fair trial. Full stop. That is not OK.
     Reply
    Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny. was starred Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny. was unstarred
    Image of Andalucía Andalucía
    11:35 AM

    @JinxyMcDeath: Knox sent a text (or left some sort of message) to Patrick, her boss, that was, "I'll see you later." According to Knox (Yes, I know), the police used that to say that he was involved and she better cop to it and say so.

    What adds credibility to her statement is that before Guede was suspected, when they only had Amanda, Meredith, and Patrick in custody, the Italian police immediately claimed the case was closed. There was DNA all over the crime scene, Kercher's and Guede's, and yet they couldn't buy a clue by the time they had claimed they had solved the murder.

    Also, regardless of her behavior, especially when being interiewed by police in a foreign country without a lawyer, they still have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was in that room when Kercher was murdered. They can't.
     Reply
    JinxyMcDeath promoted this comment Edited by Andalucía at 12/07/09 11:39 AM Andalucía was starred Andalucía was unstarred
    Image of JinxyMcDeath JinxyMcDeath
    11:54 AM

    @Andalucía: With all due respect, you cannot apply American legal standards to other countries.
     Reply
    JinxyMcDeath was starred JinxyMcDeath was unstarred
    Image of JinxyMcDeath JinxyMcDeath
    11:56 AM

    @Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: I'm not hear to prove the procecution's case. I'm saying that as an attorney who has seen a 1,000 Datelines on this and read a few articles, this is my opinion.

    What you have to realize is that the World does not have to apply American standards of justice to their legal processes. Just because they don't have the same legal standards as in America, doesn't mean it wasn't a fair trial. I happen to think it could have gone either way...guilty or innocent. The evidence was there on both ends. It wasn't a slamdunk on either side. Are you educated in law? Because usually cases aren't slamdrunks. Even in America.
     Reply
    JinxyMcDeath was starred JinxyMcDeath was unstarred
    Image of onestrawplz onestrawplz
    10:16 AM

    In reply to Hillary Clinton Gets Involved As Amanda Knox Backlash Begins
    Please boycott Italian wine and food so there will be more for me.

    K thnx.
     Reply
    onestrawplz was starred onestrawplz was unstarred
    Image of curiousgeorgiana curiousgeorgiana
    10:18 AM

    @onestrawplz: I volunteer to collect all the Chianti and keep it off our streets. True public servant that I am.
     Reply
    curiousgeorgiana was starred curiousgeorgiana was unstarred
    Image of UrbanAchiever UrbanAchiever
    10:28 AM

    @curiousgeorgiana: That's what I love about Jezzies. So selfless and civic minded. I myself volunteer to round up all the aged Parmesan, Montepulciano and Parma ham. It's the least I can do.
     Reply
    curiousgeorgiana promoted this comment UrbanAchiever was starred UrbanAchiever was unstarred
    Image of onestrawplz onestrawplz
    10:35 AM

    @curiousgeorgiana: @UrbanAchiever: I'll take care of the buffalo mozzarella, cannoli, and gelato.

    Gotta do my part, you know.
     Reply
    onestrawplz was starred onestrawplz was unstarred
    Image of PilgrimSoul PilgrimSoul
    10:07 AM

    In reply to Hillary Clinton Gets Involved As Amanda Knox Backlash Begins
    It sure would be nice if that whole, "Kill gays in Uganda" bill generated this kind of outrage from (white) Americans.
     Reply
    PilgrimSoul was starred PilgrimSoul was unstarred
    Image of WashingMyHair WashingMyHair
    10:19 AM

    @PilgrimSoul: I'M SO UP IN ARMS ABOUT THIS! Fuck these right winged religious freaks that spread hate and intolerance all over the world.

    Every time I walk by past C Street, I want to go and throw eggs at the C Street house and anyone that walks out the door.
     Reply
    WashingMyHair was starred WashingMyHair was unstarred
    Image of bluebears bluebears
    10:20 AM

    @PilgrimSoul: WHY DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND HOW FUCKED UP THE ITALIAN JUDICIAL SYSTEM IS????? THIS IS A TRAGEDY OF JUSTICE THAT WOULD NEVER BE PERPETRATED IN OUR OWN COURT SYSTEM!!!!!
     Reply
    bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred
    Image of J.D.Regent J.D.Regent
    10:32 AM

    @PilgrimSoul: HOLLA. Except what Ugandan goods would Americans give up?
     Reply
    J.D.Regent was starred J.D.Regent was unstarred
    Image of nyc-caribbean-ragazza nyc-caribbean-ragazza
    10:38 AM

    @J.D.Regent:

    That made me laugh out loud.
     Reply
    nyc-caribbean-ragazza was starred nyc-caribbean-ragazza was unstarred
    Image of mypsychoticself mypsychoticself
    10:39 AM

    @bluebears:
     Reply
    bluebears promoted this comment mypsychoticself was starred mypsychoticself was unstarred
    Image of bluebears bluebears
    10:41 AM

    @mypsychoticself: not serious
     Reply
    bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    09:54 AM

    In reply to Hillary Clinton Gets Involved As Amanda Knox Backlash Begins
    When I was in college, I had a roommate who was seriously considering becoming a nun. She was very uncomfortable around any expression of sexuality and got nervous if she heard cursing. She was also a super-nice, funny, and friendly person, odd as it might sound. That was right around the same time that yours truly was, uh, embarking on the Great Sex Tour of 1997 with a variety of parties. I didn't give her a lot of details, but I did let her know when I wouldn't be coming home on various nights. She was outwardly cool with it, but I could tell that she was a bit weirded out on some level.

    At no point did I ever have the faintest desire to kill her. She may have wanted to do me in, but that was mostly because I was bad at doing the dishes.
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of EkaterinaBallerina EkaterinaBallerina
    09:51 AM

    In reply to Hillary Clinton Gets Involved As Amanda Knox Backlash Begins
    I sorta believed she was guilty at first but spending some time with my lawyer dad, listening to him talk about the case, changed my mind. He's livid about this case. He said it's a travesty, that justice was most definitely not served and if a prosecutor in the US had tried the tactics the Italians used, the case would have been thrown out or declared a mistrial. Also, two judges that sat in with the six jury members? Please, this entire case was a disgusting mess. And while I don't think boycotting Italian food will do a damn thing, I'd at least hope that someone would try to free her.
     Reply
    EkaterinaBallerina was starred EkaterinaBallerina was unstarred
    Image of Truely-marvelous Truely-marvelous
    09:54 AM

    @EkaterinaBallerina: Isn't the two judges/6 'normal' people just the way it works in Italy?
    I found it oddly reasuring: better then just 12 jury members, I would say!
     Reply
    EkaterinaBallerina promoted this comment Truely-marvelous was starred Truely-marvelous was unstarred
    Image of EkaterinaBallerina EkaterinaBallerina
    10:00 AM

    @Truely-marvelous: Uh no, I'd be out of my mind if that's who was up to judging me. Because I highly doubt those jury members had any say in her verdict. Also, jury members here are heavily vetted. They did nothing of the sort in Italy, they just picked a few people and threw them in with two judges.
     Reply
    EkaterinaBallerina was starred EkaterinaBallerina was unstarred
    Image of Truely-marvelous Truely-marvelous
    10:07 AM

    @EkaterinaBallerina: I think this just depends on where you are from... I come from a country without a jury whatsoever, and the thought of a jury really freaks me out.
    Maybe it doesn't help that the only course I took in lawschool in America (exchange student) that had the subject of a jury in it, was a course on capital punishment. That might have made me even more scared!

    But to each their own!
     Reply
    Truely-marvelous was starred Truely-marvelous was unstarred
    Image of rah29 rah29
    10:14 AM

    @EkaterinaBallerina: To be fair, she wasn't tried in the US, she was tried in Italy. The trial was a circus, and deeply problematic, but perfectly acceptable by Italian standards. Before anybody yells at me for being too relativist, Italy's legal system is far from ideal--there's a lot of corruption--but it's not so outrageous, by international standards, that Americans should be boycotting Italy as a result. Most of us on this side of the pond think America's use of the death penatly is a barbaric breach of human rights, but I respect that it's the American system and I wouldn't stop going to the US because of it.
     Reply
    Edited by rah29 at 12/07/09 10:14 AM rah29 was starred rah29 was unstarred
    Image of ice cream for breakfast ice cream for breakfast
    10:39 AM

    @EkaterinaBallerina: you dad = my hero. Completely agree with what you said.

    I think people pay too much attention to the image Amanda has received, even if they are arguing against it, it still adds fuel to the fire.

    We need to redirect our discourse and discuss the flaws in the justice system, instead of focusing on the flaws of the Italian media.

    But a quick anecdote while I'm on the subject of Italian media. This past summer I was a climate change analyst for a thnk tank and I attended the G8 Summit in L'Aquila. I had unrestricted access to all press conferences and during Berlusconi's press conference, he ended by saying that we (the international observers) should not listen to the Italian media because they have a personal vendetta against Berlusconi and report nothing but lies. One journalist raised his hand and answered, "But President, with all due respect, you own the majority of Italy's newspapers and media."

    He laughed and left.
     Reply
    bluewine promoted this comment ice cream for breakfast was starred ice cream for breakfast was unstarred
    Image of nyc-caribbean-ragazza nyc-caribbean-ragazza
    09:45 AM

    In reply to Hillary Clinton Gets Involved As Amanda Knox Backlash Begins
    Are you kidding me?

    If her name were Keisha Knox we would have never heard of her or this case.
     Reply
    nyc-caribbean-ragazza was starred nyc-caribbean-ragazza was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    09:49 AM

    @nyc-caribbean-ragazza: Isn't that a little bit irrelevant (or, at least, obvious?). Does that mean we shouldn't care about injustice? Or does it mean that, in conversations separate from women who are already in awful situations, we have that discussion?
     Reply
    nyc-caribbean-ragazza promoted this comment CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of AndPreciousLittleofThat AndPreciousLittleofThat
    09:52 AM

    @nyc-caribbean-ragazza: WTF is that supposed to mean?

    For my dollar, this case is most troubling because of the sexual politics involved. If you're calling foul on something else, a little explanation would be helpful.
     Reply
    AndPreciousLittleofThat was starred AndPreciousLittleofThat was unstarred
    Image of nyc-caribbean-ragazza nyc-caribbean-ragazza
    09:55 AM

    @AndPreciousLittleofThat:

    If she were black, trust, I highly doubt there would be any backlash.

    I don't think I'm out of line in saying that.
     Reply
    nyc-caribbean-ragazza was starred nyc-caribbean-ragazza was unstarred
    Image of SarahMC SarahMC
    09:58 AM

    @nyc-caribbean-ragazza: I don't think you are either. Of course people should care about injustice; I do. But unlike a lot of people crying foul on Italy, I'm not more outraged about the Knox case than I am about the unfairness POC face in our own system. I get your point and I agree w/ ya.
     Reply
    SarahMC was starred SarahMC was unstarred
    Image of nyc-caribbean-ragazza nyc-caribbean-ragazza
    09:59 AM

    @CremeBruDont:

    I just wonder why this particular case is getting so many people Stateside up in arms, where there are cases of injustice all over the world against those without power, without access to lawyers, a PR firm, or even a trial.
     Reply
    nyc-caribbean-ragazza was starred nyc-caribbean-ragazza was unstarred
    Image of AndPreciousLittleofThat AndPreciousLittleofThat
    10:01 AM

    @nyc-caribbean-ragazza: So a threat to justice anywhere (Italy) isn't a threat to justice everywhere (wherever you are)?

    You're not out of line in talking about race, but in this specific case, I don't see much of a connection. "If" covers a lot of ground.
     Reply
    AndPreciousLittleofThat was starred AndPreciousLittleofThat was unstarred
    Image of imanforthetimes001 imanforthetimes001
    10:01 AM

    @nyc-caribbean-ragazza: I agree. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't care that this happened to Amanda.
     Reply
    WashingMyHair promoted this comment imanforthetimes001 was starred imanforthetimes001 was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    10:05 AM

    @nyc-caribbean-ragazza: Why are people in the United States getting upset? In fact, it's because of all those things you mentioned - money/trial/power/lawyers/PR/media/etc. That how media coverage works. How that can be changed is a conversation that definitely needs to be had - - - but I, for one, find it tiresome to hear it every single time a young, pretty white woman gets media coverage for a horrible, tragic thing. Why can't we have that conversation in its own right, without undermining a totally legitimate conversation about how sexual politics interacts with criminal trials, media, etc.
     Reply
    CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of PaigeTurner PaigeTurner
    10:08 AM

    @nyc-caribbean-ragazza: yes, but what does that hypothetical have to do with the story at hand? who cares?

    if, in an alternate reality, knox was black and being discriminated against because of her race that would be wrong, but just because that's not happening doesn't diminish the fact that there are other evils at work.
     Reply
    nyc-caribbean-ragazza promoted this comment PaigeTurner was starred PaigeTurner was unstarred
    Image of PilgrimSoul PilgrimSoul
    10:09 AM

    @nyc-caribbean-ragazza: Word.
     Reply
    PilgrimSoul was starred PilgrimSoul was unstarred
    Image of WashingMyHair WashingMyHair
    10:13 AM

    @imanforthetimes001: I think that this case really shows how sad of a state we're in when we're up in arms about this one trial in Italy, but this same injustice happens everyday right here in the U.S. to minority, and even poor people. So, I can understand someone pointing out the almost outright hypocrisy of our media (and we citizens). This won't change unless we citizens acknowledge and put this same outrage in what is happening in our own back yard.

    It may seem irrelevant to some, but it's an everyday issue to many!
     Reply
    Edited by WashingMyHair at 12/07/09 10:16 AM WashingMyHair was starred WashingMyHair was unstarred
    Image of nyc-caribbean-ragazza nyc-caribbean-ragazza
    10:16 AM

    @CremeBruDont:

    I don't think me questioning Hillary's possible involvement and the boycott is stopping the conversation about sexual politics.

    I do think that conversation is important and it obviously played a role in how Amanda was portrayed in the foreign press.

    At the same time I do think race and class played a big role in how she was portrayed in the American press.
     Reply
    nyc-caribbean-ragazza was starred nyc-caribbean-ragazza was unstarred
    Image of nyc-caribbean-ragazza nyc-caribbean-ragazza
    10:17 AM

    @SarahMC: Thanks. I was wondering if I was a little too quick to go with my gut reaction to the headline.
     Reply
    Edited by nyc-caribbean-ragazza at 12/07/09 10:26 AM nyc-caribbean-ragazza was starred nyc-caribbean-ragazza was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    10:20 AM

    @nyc-caribbean-ragazza: I don't think that it was so much how she was portrayed by the American press but the mere fact that she was portrayed at all. THAT is why it's a totally separate discussion - - - how much and whether the media pays attention to non-"Anglo young attractive females." But does that have to come up every single time an Anglo young attractive female DOES get media coverage? Is that the most efficient way to effect change in the way the media works? No, it's terribly inefficient because it's not a novel concept to everyone who does agree with you and is seen as irrelevant to those who disagree with you (or, alternatively, both reactions, in my case). That conversation should be had separately, as a critique of media coverage that isn't done in the shadow of a huge news story.
     Reply
    CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of nyc-caribbean-ragazza nyc-caribbean-ragazza
    10:25 AM

    @AndPreciousLittleofThat:

    Of course injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everyone.

    Just reading these threads over the last few days has made wonder where was all this outrage for cases of injustice right here in our own country.

    Maybe people can identify with Amanda more that with that man who was recently put to death for murder in Texas? There are serious doubts about whether or not he set the fire that killed his children.

    Jezebel covered the story and there weren't as many threads about it as there are about this case.
     Reply
    nyc-caribbean-ragazza was starred nyc-caribbean-ragazza was unstarred
    Image of WashingMyHair WashingMyHair
    10:26 AM

    @CremeBruDont: Yes, we should be reminded every single time, regardless of how inefficient it is.
     Reply
    WashingMyHair was starred WashingMyHair was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    10:30 AM

    @WashingMyHair: Why, though? If it really is inefficient, and it's at least a little disrespectful to the person whose life is legitimately taken away, or abused, or faced with injustice - WHY is there always a small contingent of people who make the exact same comment every time? It's so inefficient precisely because, by bringing it up "every single time," a) people start blocking it out and b) people lose the impetus to actually act when it COULD be efficient and productive
     Reply
    CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of bluebears bluebears
    10:30 AM

    @WashingMyHair: amen.
     Reply
    bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred
    Image of nyc-caribbean-ragazza nyc-caribbean-ragazza
    10:30 AM

    @PaigeTurner: washingingmyhair's reply sums it up.

    I care because I want the same level of outrage and media coverage when there are miscarriages of justice here.
     Reply
    Edited by nyc-caribbean-ragazza at 12/07/09 10:30 AM nyc-caribbean-ragazza was starred nyc-caribbean-ragazza was unstarred
    Image of bluebears bluebears
    10:31 AM

    @nyc-caribbean-ragazza: saying there were "serious doubts" about that man in Texas who was EXECUTED by our totally beloved and fair justice system is being generous. But outside of the New Yorker and npr no one gave a flying fuck. So yeah, I'm with you, race and class are all very important in situations like this and YES it needs to be talked about.
     Reply
    bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred
    Image of Breamworthy Breamworthy
    10:33 AM

    @WashingMyHair: Oh my god, a million times yes to this. Aside from the obvious parallels (trumped up satanic bullshit, etc.) with the West Memphis Three, there are zillions of other Americans who have been just as screwed over by the system and who haven't been the focus of international media clusterfuck or had a movie made about them.
     Reply
    Breamworthy was starred Breamworthy was unstarred
    Image of WashingMyHair WashingMyHair
    10:34 AM

    @CremeBruDont: Did you suggest a more effective, efficient way?
    If shaming the media (while educating the public of the imbalance) helps move us into the right direction, I'm all for it. I don't remember seeing Nancy Grace stop ranting about Natalie Holowell because of someone screaming " what about the people of color that go missing every day in this country."
     Reply
    Edited by WashingMyHair at 12/07/09 10:37 AM WashingMyHair was starred WashingMyHair was unstarred
    Image of bluebears bluebears
    10:35 AM

    @CremeBruDont: Dude, are you being efficient right now by having a prolonged argument about whether a certain comment was efficient? Irony.
     Reply
    bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    10:36 AM

    @Breamworthy: But what's our ideal goal, here? Is it to have every single victim of judicial injustice be the focus of an international media clusterfuck? Be the star of a movie? Or is the goal ACTUALLY to make sure that injustice doesn't happen? If that's the case, how, if at all, does expanding the diversity of who is the subject of international media attention helping that? (and I don't actually know the answer to that, but I think it's the right question to ask).
     Reply
    Breamworthy promoted this comment CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    10:38 AM

    @bluebears: No, I'm not, but I'm not pretending that I'm fighting some moral crusade when I'm doing it.
     Reply
    CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of bluebears bluebears
    10:41 AM

    @CremeBruDont: I have no idea what you're talking about.
     Reply
    bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    10:41 AM

    @WashingMyHair: A more efficient way? Have the conversation in the context of media bias and discrimination, not in every instance of a white girl getting media coverage. Oh, are there not that many conversations about media bias and discrimination? Maybe that's exactly the problem. People are so concerned about whether Madeline McCann should be getting the attention she gets that no one actually has a conversation that is about media bias in and of itself. Not in the shadow of a compelling missing persons story. Just a legitimate, intelligent conversation about media bias.
     Reply
    Edited by CremeBruDont at 12/07/09 10:42 AM CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    10:41 AM

    @bluebears: Well then, carry on.
     Reply
    CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of bluebears bluebears
    10:42 AM

    @CremeBruDont: wow thanks.
     Reply
    bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred
    Image of Breamworthy Breamworthy
    10:42 AM

    @CremeBruDont: I am by no means arguing that all people who suffer injustice should have this kind of attention foisted on them. I'm agreeing with WashingMyHair's comment about many Americans claiming that this doesn't happen in the US - which is patently wrong. If you put this all down to the messed-up Italian judicial system - as many have been doing, even in the comments here - and refuse to believe that it could happen at home, then you are turning a blind eye to a whole shitload of injustice.
     Reply
    Breamworthy was starred Breamworthy was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    10:43 AM

    @bluebears: you're welcome.
     Reply
    CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of xay xay
    10:43 AM

    @nyc-caribbean-ragazza: THIS. The amount of hypocrisy from people up in arms about this case is mindblowing to me. Every time I hear someone mention how this wouldn't happen in America, I want to throw things.

    I'd like to care more, I really would. But people get put to death as a result of sham trials in this country and they are not plastered all over the news like this case and we all know why.
     Reply
    bluebears promoted this comment xay was starred xay was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    10:45 AM

    @Breamworthy: See, I think that's a different issue. I totally, 1005 agree with you that all these people who are responding in a "OMG, I am NEVER going to Italy, the justice system there is terrible!" sound idiotic. But at least what I was getting from most of the comments here is a cliched, sarcastic response to media coverage of white women. Which I find to be inefficient and repetitive with no actual productive effect.
     Reply
    CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of WashingMyHair WashingMyHair
    10:56 AM

    @CremeBruDont: Please (re)read my original comment in this thread.
     Reply
    WashingMyHair was starred WashingMyHair was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    10:58 AM

    @WashingMyHair: Okay? What about it?
     Reply
    CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of WashingMyHair WashingMyHair
    11:07 AM

    @CremeBruDont: I don't think it at all portrayed what you were implying in your above post.

    This is my last post in this string.....
     Reply
    Edited by WashingMyHair at 12/07/09 11:09 AM WashingMyHair was starred WashingMyHair was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    11:09 AM

    @WashingMyHair: ??? There's way too much reference to to references of references. I'm pretty sure I used the word "most" in the comment you were replying to. That means that just because there's one comment by you that isn't an exact match to what I was saying doesn't mean that it disproves the validity of my comment in the slightest.
     Reply
    Edited by CremeBruDont at 12/07/09 11:11 AM CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of PilgrimSoul PilgrimSoul
    11:12 AM

    @CremeBruDont: Well but then many of the people utilizing this sarcasm are white women. So what's your point, really? I mean, I get that you have some kind of concern about the Amanda Knox case (vague, unstated concern, but hell, let's assume it's sincere, I had a really good breakfast this morning), but I have no idea why you're upset that someone pointed out that the problem is bigger than, well, Amanda Knox.
     Reply
    PilgrimSoul was starred PilgrimSoul was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    11:20 AM

    @PilgrimSoul: I'm don't know and don't care about the race of the people in this thread. Also, you're saying that the issue here is people pointing out that the problem is bigger than Amanda Knox. You're incorrect. That's not at all the concern that I have. It was the original comment, and the comments echoing it, that said "Well, if she were black they wouldn't be covering her." It's NOT that they're concerned about the fact that there is injustice in the world, it's that they care about how injustice is covered in the media. Those are two separate issues*. The latter, which often result in a cacaphony of "Well, what about non-pretty white girls?" bother me in two ways: 1) they necessarily undermine the importance of the person who IS being covered and the severity of their case (this is in a lot of ways similar to the Black Hair commenting issues from last week). 2) it's entirely misplaced. The reason why no one really talks about media bias is because people expend all their energy trying to take attention away from already-huge media stories (which almost always proves ineffective) rather than pushing to actually have an intelligent, rational conversation about media bias when it's not in the shadow of a media clusterfuck.

    *(and, YES, often times people have both concerns concurrently, but I'm only talking about people's concerns with the amount of media coverage).
     Reply
    CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of PilgrimSoul PilgrimSoul
    11:27 AM

    @CremeBruDont: It's not similar to "Black Hair commenting issues" because Amanda Knox does not suffer from media invisibility. She's in no danger, in other words, of being kicked out of the spotlight by a few minor Jezebel commenters. In other words, there is no systemic privilege being reified by the comments you refer to. If anything, they have to keep insisting on being heard because people like you will talk and talk and talk about how they don't really understand the issue and aren't rational and are derailing and ohmygod I'm tired even typing this because it's like people just can't get. it. And I don't know why.

    I mean, here you are saying that the observation that there is media bias towards pretty white girls is preventing an "intelligent, rational conversation about"... "media bias"? Ugh.
     Reply
    PilgrimSoul was starred PilgrimSoul was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    11:35 AM

    @PilgrimSoul: Yes, it's not EXACTLY like the black hair issues but similar. But, as you described, there are some differences. However, this article isn't about Amanda Knox period. It's about how her sexuality was used as a weapon in the media and judicial process. So it's far more complicated and nuanced than how white women are not invisible in the media. Moving on.

    Yes, I think that this "observation" DOES prevent rational conversation. Because a) it's the least novel comment ever in these posts. Do we really need 15 people pointing out that a black man in this situation wouldn't have gotten news coverage? Is there anyone who is legitimately arguing that a black man WOULD get similar coverage? I, for one, have never seen it. So I just find the whole comment, in concept, to be tiring. And, b) by trying, in vain, to derail a conversation about how a woman's sexuality is used in a media circus of a trial by trying to change the subject to how much coverage is given to other groups of people are covered in the media (without any discussion made to their coverage of their sexuality), it really DOES keep everyone from having the impetus to have that conversation outside of the context of a media circus.
     Reply
    CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of bluebears bluebears
    11:44 AM

    @CremeBruDont: no. The original post was about the growing backlash against the guilty verdict, up to and including a boycott of an entire nation and the Secretary of State possibly getting involved on Knox's behalf. It was completely relevant and appropriate to question whether this level of outrage would be present if this was person of color.
     Reply
    bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    11:46 AM

    @bluebears: I am talking about my response to the original comment. If I inadvertently said post in one of my comments, I apologize. The original comment doesn't reference the boycotts. It references whether we would have ever "heard" of the case. And so on and so forth underneath.
     Reply
    CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of bluebears bluebears
    11:49 AM

    @CremeBruDont: "However, this article isn't about Amanda Knox period. It's about how her sexuality was used as a weapon in the media and judicial process. So it's far more complicated and nuanced than how white women are not invisible in the media. "

    The Jezebel article was about more then how Knox's sexuality was used as a weapon against her, it was also about the growing backlash against the guilty verdict, up to and including a boycott of an entire nation and the Secretary of State possibly getting involved on Knox's behalf. It was completely relevant that the ORIGINAL COMMENT questioned whether this level of outrage would be present if this was person of color.
     Reply
    bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    11:50 AM

    @bluebears: Again, the original comment wasn't about outrage & boycotts. It was about whether we would have "heard" of Keisha Knox.
     Reply
    CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of bluebears bluebears
    11:52 AM

    @CremeBruDont: well I cannot speak for nyc-caribbean-ragazza, but I would assume that she was implying that there would be no such backlash or cultural outrage on behalf of a person of color.
     Reply
    Edited by bluebears at 12/07/09 11:53 AM bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    11:57 AM

    @bluebears: Well, I didn't read those unstated opinions into her comment. I was just responding to the actual words she wrote, I don't think that it was that ridiculous of an assumption (you know, that people mean exactly what they say)
     Reply
    CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of bluebears bluebears
    12:02 PM

    @CremeBruDont: Maybe you would have gotten it if you thought about it for a few minutes, about where that sense of frustration was coming from, instead of you know, telling her her comment was irrelevant and she didn't care about injustice in this world. Plus she then clarified her position further down in the thread, and several other people have basically reiterated that same point.
     Reply
    bluebears was starred bluebears was unstarred
    Image of CremeBruDont CremeBruDont
    12:04 PM

    @bluebears: I read the thread. There was plenty, plenty of discussion about the coverage, not the backlash. I did think about it. Thanks for the unsolicited advice.
     Reply
    CremeBruDont was starred CremeBruDont was unstarred
    Image of morninggloria morninggloria
    09:44 AM

    In reply to Hillary Clinton Gets Involved As Amanda Knox Backlash Begins
    Don't listen to the British. If I've learned anything from hilarious Monty Python sketches involving Michael Palin in a wig, British people are real prudes.
     Reply
    morninggloria was starred morninggloria was unstarred
    Image of kemperboyd kemperboyd
    10:35 AM

    @morninggloria: I really don't think it's that we're prudes. Trust me ALOT of our tv and film is about sex.
    I think it's that we are looking at this from the point of the victim. Meaning because the victim was British the media has focused more on why this could have happened; whether their reasoning is sound or not.
     Reply
    kemperboyd was starred kemperboyd was unstarred
    Image of morninggloria morninggloria
    10:43 AM

    @kemperboyd: (I was joking....)
     Reply
    morninggloria was starred morninggloria was unstarred
    Image of SarahMC SarahMC
    09:43 AM

    In reply to Hillary Clinton Gets Involved As Amanda Knox Backlash Begins
    some Americans supposedly "vowed to boycott Italian holidays, wine and food"

    What!? Some Americans are frighteningly stupid.
     Reply
    SarahMC was starred SarahMC was unstarred
    Image of Triana Orpheus Triana Orpheus
    09:48 AM

    @SarahMC: I don't know why you would think such a thing. *munches on freedom fries*
     Reply
    Triana Orpheus was starred Triana Orpheus was unstarred
    Image of morninggloria morninggloria
    09:55 AM

    @SarahMC: "Me n' Chuck ain't goin to Olive Garden till them Eye-talians let that poor girl go home."
     Reply
    morninggloria was starred morninggloria was unstarred
    Image of PilgrimSoul PilgrimSoul
    10:10 AM

    @SarahMC: You're a pasta-eating surrender Sicilian.
     Reply
    PilgrimSoul was starred PilgrimSoul was unstarred
    Image of lilydancing lilydancing
    09:43 AM

    In reply to Hillary Clinton Gets Involved As Amanda Knox Backlash Begins
    Wtf constitutes an "Italian" holiday? No more Saints Days? I mean, you could argue Christmas is an Italian holiday, for Chirstsake (pun intended). I doubt anybody is going to be boycotting that one anytime soon.

    Forgive me if I don't have time to give a shit about Amanda Knox. Or Tiger Woods for that matter.
     Reply
    hortense promoted this comment lilydancing was starred lilydancing was unstarred
    Image of hortense hortense
    09:45 AM

    @lilydancing: I think they mean "holiday" as in "vacation."
     Reply
    hortense was starred hortense was unstarred
    Image of lilydancing lilydancing
    10:12 AM

    @hortense: Ah well. That would make sense. My British English translator doesn't turn on until after my second cup of coffee.
     Reply
    lilydancing was starred lilydancing was unstarred
    Image of warhol's gnarwol warhol's gnarwol
    09:43 AM

    In reply to Hillary Clinton Gets Involved As Amanda Knox Backlash Begins
    Liberty Lasagna! I'm never going to the Olive Garden ever again! I'm going to stay home and make my own "Endless Salad Bowl (of Appeals)"!
     Reply
    NellMood promoted this comment warhol's gnarwol was starred warhol's gnarwol was unstarred
    Image of NellMood NellMood
    09:41 AM

    In reply to Hillary Clinton Gets Involved As Amanda Knox Backlash Begins
    This line of logic, leading from one-night stands to murder, is really frightening to me. Despite what Purves writes I do find it hard to see "how hostile Knox could become to her sober flatmate." Do people who don't drink or have casual sex actually feel threatened by those who do?
     Reply
    NellMood was starred NellMood was unstarred
    Image of LilSpitfire LilSpitfire
    09:49 AM

    @NellMood: I can tell you as a nondrinker how annoying friends can be when you go out with them and choose just to drink water or soda.

    Especially when they know that you are on a medication that doesn't mix with alcohol.

    As to the casual sex thing, I'm probably not the only person who has that 1-2 friends who keep having train wreck situations because they'll sleep with anything that gives them attention even if they openly admit how empty it makes them feel.

    But his whole logic that sex games=murder goes beyond simple prudish shit.
     Reply
    NellMood promoted this comment LilSpitfire was starred LilSpitfire was unstarred
    Image of NellMood NellMood
    09:55 AM

    @LilSpitfire: Sure, that's annoying, but are those things threatening? A friend making bad sex choices for themself or being a jerk about drinking is pretty far from murdering someone because that person disapproves.
     Reply
    NellMood was starred NellMood was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    09:56 AM

    @NellMood: Depends on whether or not the people who don't drink or have casual sex secretly want to be boozing and sexing it up. If so, yes.
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of bluewine bluewine
    09:37 AM

    In reply to Hillary Clinton Gets Involved As Amanda Knox Backlash Begins
    Enjoying sex means you're incapable of love? Which apparently means you're capable of murder? But only if you're female, of course. Fuck on a stick, we can't win, can we?
     Reply
    Edited by bluewine at 12/07/09 9:41 AM bluewine was starred bluewine was unstarred
    Image of curiousgeorgiana curiousgeorgiana
    09:35 AM

    In reply to Hillary Clinton Gets Involved As Amanda Knox Backlash Begins
    People have been having sex since the dawn of time. Before marriage, outside of marriage, with many partners, with multiple partners, ad infinitum.

    Stop acting like "debauchery" was invented in the last 50 years.
     Reply
    curiousgeorgiana was starred curiousgeorgiana was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    09:45 AM

    @curiousgeorgiana: Hell, the "zipless fuck" term was coined before I was born, Libby. Check yer Erica Jong.
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of morninggloria morninggloria
    09:46 AM

    @curiousgeorgiana: The idea that the world is going to hell and that everything was much better when current old people were young is an idea that comforts those who have surpassed their relevance.
     Reply
    morninggloria was starred morninggloria was unstarred
    Image of curiousgeorgiana curiousgeorgiana
    09:53 AM

    @morninggloria: Now I know what to say to my grandfather at Christmas dinner. Tip of my hat
     Reply
    curiousgeorgiana was starred curiousgeorgiana was unstarred
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