Not schooled in the "science of law and finance"??? Wesley, you get a hearty "Bish please" for that one. Everyone knows the tax man is a pimp and the pimp has to get his cut. Even brokies like me have to pay taxes. No one is tax-exempt, NO ONE.
@NewsBunny: How would it help curb STDs? Don't most prostitutes use condoms? I bet I'm missing something obvious...
I think by legalizing it, it would help those who were brought in from other countries who feel they can't go to police [or their passports were taken away by the people who brought them here]. I was surprised that this still happens a lot.
@lemoner: Prostitutes in Amsterdam are required to present documentation from frequent clinical health checks or their business licenses are revoked. That helps a TON because if they contract anything then they are pretty much out of work! Those girls are mighty careful.
@pixysix: Those policies do prevent the spread of disease, but don't forget who they are helping- the johns and their wives/girlfriends.
They do not significantly help the actual sex workers because the johns are not required to prove they are STI free.
Those laws are generally written from the perspective of protecting the innocent women who are married to johns, not the sex workers. It is a useful public health policy, but it basically treats sex workers like Typhoid Marys.
Wow, since I keep seeing the OPPOSITE sentiment expressed here re: the tour bus accident- how terrible for that poor man and his family and thank goodness no one else was seriously injured.
What is the Vatican talking about? Bella and Edward wait until marriage to have sex and Bella refuses to abort her baby even though it might kill her. You'd think that Twilight would be on top of their Netflix queue.
I can't believe the question that led to that response wasn't included: "On your blog recently, you considered whether men or women have it easier in life, and concluded that "if men had it easy, there wouldn’t be prostitutes." Care to elaborate?"
I don't hate Bell de Jour, but she does make me roll my eyes. She is selling a very happy go lucky, hyper sexualized, john friendly view of sex work. It feels very calculated. It is impressive that she has managed to spin a year of part-time sex work into three books, but she is selling what people want to read.
@clevernamehere: One of the things that I like about Belle/Brooke is that, in my opinion, she's been very careful to delineate the story of sex work she's selling as -her- story of -her- sex work experience. I don't think there's anything wrong with her portraying her story as a pretty happy one if that's how she experienced it, so long as she acknowledges the reality that her story is her own and that her experiences in the industry are shared by some but not all women. I think she reliably makes that acknowledgment.
@blueberryblackberry: I really don't think she is telling her story. I think she is creating a story that is designed to be pretty titillating that is loosely based on her experiences. "It is so hard to be a man, they need sex workers to help them deal with how hard it is!" is a pretty good example of that.
I don't think her writing says much, if anything about the sex industry. She basically writes sexy beach reads, which is fine but shouldn't be treated as anything else.
@clevernamehere: the john ego stroking is tiresome and seems unnecessary. i know you had to do it to make a living, but do you have to do it in the NY Times too?
@clevernamehere: I think you just managed to point exactly as to why I dislike what she has to say, on both sex work and life in general. To me, it always reads as "I'm a beautiful, smart, educated and successful woman, and I loooove the patriarchy (TM)!"
@clevernamehere: I guess that only Brooke/Belle knows what her experiences really were. But the story she tells doesn't seem implausible to me and I've been in her industry for a while.
My interest in sleeping with a prostitute has nothing to do with having them fakely swoon over creepy advances or because I have some bizarre fetish that no one will partake in with me—it's mainly because it feels so taboo. There's something appealing about being with someone attractive who feels "dirty*" to me.
Admittedly, role playing this with someone I'm in a relationship has always been a curiosity and is probably less likely to disappoint me or get me arrested. :)
*Not dirty in a physiological way, but, well, a sex for money way. Naughty is probably a better word.
@toadaleh: Fair enough. I don't think there's anything morally wrong with prostitutes so I don't really see curiosity towards those for have sex for money to be "repellant" but to each his/her own, of course.
@clevernamehere: That's not what I meant to imply, at all. That's why I added the asterisk there. I'm most definitely not calling sex-workers dirty. Please don't misunderstand me, it's more that I find the process, that of paying for sex, naughty. That's how I meant "dirty." I thought I'd erase it at first, to avoid this discussion, but I thought it would show exactly why the process is appealing to me. Growing up, prostitution was always shown as a negative thing to me. Many people, even extremely liberal, close friends of mine accept it, but would look down on me if I partook in it.
I don't feel that it IS negative. But look at some of the comments in this thread. "Guys who can't get girlfriends pay for sex." "I bet these pieces of shit can't get women on their own."
There's a stigma attached to it and that stigma, that of doing something that *others* find questionable is much of the appeal.
@Jeremy: I think the real mistake wasn't the oh so charming use of dirty, it was thinking that Jezebel readers would be fascinated by your sexual fantasies. While I and I think most of the other Jez commentators are totally open to male posters, we are not sitting around hoping some man will come along to explain it to us.
@lilliputzian: A fetish is something that has no inherent general sexual value but arouses you anyway. Paying for the sex is a curiosity, not a turn on. The sex itself is what would be arousing in this case.
Also, I never stated I didn't have a fetish or two. I just said that my interest in paying for sex isn't about having a fetish that someone else refuses share with me.
Also, also, I feel like there's a feeling of expertness that comes along with prostitution. That likely, if it's someone's profession, they're particularly good at it. Do they know something I don't know? Do they possess tricks that I've been ignorant about for years and years? I've always been attracted to women with more sexual experience than I have and that's a significant part of this as well.
@clevernamehere: I don't think that's entirely fair. This post is about her explaining why some men are interested in prostitutes, I don't think him explaining why he'd be interested in prostitutes was out of place or uncalled for. He wasn't disrespectful or judgmental, only a bit inarticulate, considering his three comments could have been reduced to a simple "The idea of breaking sexual taboos is kind of hot."
@clevernamehere: The post was about an (albeit obvious) statement about what drives some men to pay for sex. Many comments on Jez are shares of people's experiences with the topic at hand. I wasn't trying to fascinate anyone. I just figured out of the dozen associated random thoughts that were posted here, I'd contribute. I apologize if this was an error on my part—I didn't even expect this to become anything more than me making a comment and moving along. I wasn't trolling for some lengthy discussion about my sexual habits.
Many users post something personal about themselves on a given topic. That's all my intent was, I'm sorry if it was particularly irritating or off-putting.
I don't see anything wrong with his response, morally.
Subverting normal power roles is a large part of human sexuality- it's only abhorrent to me if a man acts that way in real life. Dominatrixes don't go around beating people in the grocery checkout line, so if a man wants to pay a sex worker because it feels transgressive, it's none of my business unless he also offers his female money for sexual favors because that feels transgressive, too.
This is all unrelated to the myriad other issues about prostitution (who's forced into it, who's able to leave it, how they're being treated while they're in it), but I don't feel Jeremy's said anything horrible here. The question was why might some men be interested in purchasing the services of a sex worker, and he answered from his personal perspective.
@toadaleh: So if a woman wants to play with her own sexuality by experimenting with something she finds taboo according to societal norms, that's all well and good and we should commend her. But if a guy finds it sexy or kinky to break a taboo, that's disgusting and repellent and we should ostracize him? OK, got it. Vagina good, penis baaaad.
@Jeremy: I do find something morally wrong and disturbing with visiting prostitutes, because you can never be certain that they WANT to have sex with you. If I was having sex with someone and I was unsure whether they really, truly wanted to have sex with me, I would consider it a negative experience, to say the least. With most prostitution, it is impossible to tell if you are buying sex or buying rape.
With that being said, I think chances of it being a good experience for the prostitute go up significantly if she is educated and "high end." There is a greater chance that she has other options and that prostitution is actually a choice for her.
Just don't act like visiting prostitutes is some harmless fetish, or a "victimless" crime, because I really, really don't think it is.
Not all people in sex work are victims, but as a John, you can never be sure if you are, in fact, a victimizer.
@Jeremy: Fetishes have nothing to do with actual relationships with humans. As long as you get it that you get hot from the idea of dehumanizing a woman, we're all clear on what you're into.
@Sadako: 'Vagina good, penis baaaad' No, that really isn't the point. To describe a sex worker as 'dirty' is the problem. Yes, Jeremy has further explained his arguement, and maybe he didn't set it out terribly well in the OP, but the reality of much of the sex industry is that it is peopled with individuals that are physically, emotionally, or financially coerced into it. For every 'Belle' there are a hundred others who did not have the positive experience that she did. Women in the sex indusrty have a disproportionately high risk of being victims of rape, assult and murder. Most sex workers are not 'playing with their own sexuality', they are engaged in a dangerous and degrading trade which dehumanises them.
I appreciate that 'Belle's' account of being a sex worker is one that is appealing to many as at reinforces the fantasy element of the sex trade, but it not a realistic account, it is a marketing tool.
@whynotshesaid: Yeah, but why all the hostility to men? If women were coming in here talking about their sexual experiences as sex workers in a positive light, would we be responding in that way. I just don't see why the reaction is, "Ugh, a MAN talking about his SEX FANTASIES, what a dick."
I know that the sex trade is dehumanising, but if we're talking about a woman who didn't find it that way, why is it wrong to talk about a man who also enjoys it?
@Sadako: It's not so much this particular comment as the fact that it's an ongoing theme, where a dude will come in and regale us with a full-color recounting of his sexual fantasies. I mean, it happens ALL THE TIME. It has nothing to do with the fact that it involves a sex worker, and everything to do with the fact that he feels entitled to overshare like that when a simple "it turns me on because it's taboo" will suffice. It feels like we've been made into part of his foreplay without our consent, and it's annoying.
I always thought the joke was that you didn't pay prostitutes for the sex, you pay them to go away afterwards.
Apparently that's incorrect. You pay prostitutes to agree to sleep with your sorry, rich, self-loathing ass so you can avoid feeling the sting of rejection. Go figure!
Wait...men who are addicted to success, I assume, would have cash, right? There are plenty of women who would respond to that. And when she means a woman "like me," what does she mean? Is she talking about her physical appearance, her profession?
@Penny: I interpreted it as a referring to men who are addicted to "succeeding" with women. The ones where the only reason to have any sort of relationship with women is to have sex with her. Which in my experience tends to become a more prevalent attitude the less money a guy has.
. Also, the power of being a decent-looking blond woman in the world. People may not take you seriously at first but they don’t resent your approach. Once the door is cracked open, it’s up to you to show your value as an intelligent person. Leveraging my sexuality to promote my work? You bet.
12:01 PM
10:52 AM
It's ridiculous. And couldn't we get a better handle on things like the spread of STDs if this shit was legalized?
12:30 PM
I think by legalizing it, it would help those who were brought in from other countries who feel they can't go to police [or their passports were taken away by the people who brought them here]. I was surprised that this still happens a lot.
03:25 PM
03:33 PM
They do not significantly help the actual sex workers because the johns are not required to prove they are STI free.
Those laws are generally written from the perspective of protecting the innocent women who are married to johns, not the sex workers. It is a useful public health policy, but it basically treats sex workers like Typhoid Marys.
12:38 AM
11/20/09
11/20/09
Virgin birth, crucifixion, Lazarus rising from the dead: nothing extreme about any of that.
11/20/09
11/20/09
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11/20/09
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11/20/09
I don't hate Bell de Jour, but she does make me roll my eyes. She is selling a very happy go lucky, hyper sexualized, john friendly view of sex work. It feels very calculated. It is impressive that she has managed to spin a year of part-time sex work into three books, but she is selling what people want to read.
11/20/09
11/20/09
I don't think her writing says much, if anything about the sex industry. She basically writes sexy beach reads, which is fine but shouldn't be treated as anything else.
11/20/09
11/20/09
11/20/09
11/20/09
11/20/09
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11/20/09
Admittedly, role playing this with someone I'm in a relationship has always been a curiosity and is probably less likely to disappoint me or get me arrested. :)
*Not dirty in a physiological way, but, well, a sex for money way. Naughty is probably a better word.
11/20/09
11/20/09
11/20/09
11/20/09
I don't feel that it IS negative. But look at some of the comments in this thread. "Guys who can't get girlfriends pay for sex." "I bet these pieces of shit can't get women on their own."
There's a stigma attached to it and that stigma, that of doing something that *others* find questionable is much of the appeal.
11/20/09
11/20/09
11/20/09
Also, I never stated I didn't have a fetish or two. I just said that my interest in paying for sex isn't about having a fetish that someone else refuses share with me.
Also, also, I feel like there's a feeling of expertness that comes along with prostitution. That likely, if it's someone's profession, they're particularly good at it. Do they know something I don't know? Do they possess tricks that I've been ignorant about for years and years? I've always been attracted to women with more sexual experience than I have and that's a significant part of this as well.
11/20/09
11/20/09
Many users post something personal about themselves on a given topic. That's all my intent was, I'm sorry if it was particularly irritating or off-putting.
11/20/09
I don't see anything wrong with his response, morally.
Subverting normal power roles is a large part of human sexuality- it's only abhorrent to me if a man acts that way in real life. Dominatrixes don't go around beating people in the grocery checkout line, so if a man wants to pay a sex worker because it feels transgressive, it's none of my business unless he also offers his female money for sexual favors because that feels transgressive, too.
This is all unrelated to the myriad other issues about prostitution (who's forced into it, who's able to leave it, how they're being treated while they're in it), but I don't feel Jeremy's said anything horrible here. The question was why might some men be interested in purchasing the services of a sex worker, and he answered from his personal perspective.
11/20/09
11/20/09
With that being said, I think chances of it being a good experience for the prostitute go up significantly if she is educated and "high end." There is a greater chance that she has other options and that prostitution is actually a choice for her.
Just don't act like visiting prostitutes is some harmless fetish, or a "victimless" crime, because I really, really don't think it is.
Not all people in sex work are victims, but as a John, you can never be sure if you are, in fact, a victimizer.
11/20/09
06:16 AM
I appreciate that 'Belle's' account of being a sex worker is one that is appealing to many as at reinforces the fantasy element of the sex trade, but it not a realistic account, it is a marketing tool.
08:46 AM
10:52 AM
I know that the sex trade is dehumanising, but if we're talking about a woman who didn't find it that way, why is it wrong to talk about a man who also enjoys it?
12:07 PM
11/20/09
Apparently that's incorrect. You pay prostitutes to agree to sleep with your sorry, rich, self-loathing ass so you can avoid feeling the sting of rejection. Go figure!
11/20/09
I find this quote confusing.
11/20/09
11/20/09
11/20/09
Wow. Interesting take.