segregation - Jezebel

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Mississippi Learning
Women Who "Looked Gay" Segregated At Virginia Prison
When "Tradition" Destroys Progress
For Iranian Women, Cars Represent Both Limitations And Freedoms
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MizJenkins
07/17/09

In reply to Mississippi Learning
Jessica: Ok FINE whatever!
Chasidy: Don't be mad bish. Wait 'til I win prom queen.
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badmutha
07/17/09

In reply to Mississippi Learning
Interesting that they are wearing black and white.
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nyc-caribbean-ragazza
07/17/09

In reply to Mississippi Learning
Hello it's a post-racial America. Why are there still segregated proms or day campers getting kicked out of country clubs for possibly "changing the complexion" of said club?
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ellaesther
07/17/09

@nyc-caribbean-ragazza: Ah yes! I see you have seen the irony, too!
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NefariousNewt
07/17/09

@nyc-caribbean-ragazza: For the same reason a Latina Supreme Court nominee has to answer for remarks that have nothing to do with her judicial record.
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Pandorasvoicebox
07/17/09

@nyc-caribbean-ragazza: I think that means it's not a post-racial America. Just saying.
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Ramseylicious
07/17/09

@Pandorasvoicebox: Just logged in to say exactly that.

I'm actually doing my thesis on White's thoughts and attitudes on privilege and how they correlate with their beliefs in a post-racial America.
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nyc-caribbean-ragazza
07/17/09

I know. I was being sarcastic. Seriously, I am tired of hearing that phrase. Mostly because I don't think it's true. @Pandorasvoicebox:
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Pandorasvoicebox
07/17/09

@nyc-caribbean-ragazza: Oops, sorry to jump on you then.
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BAngieB
07/17/09

@Pandorasvoicebox: Stop marginalizing people because they don't agree with your assessments of post-racial America.
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LolaQuinn is full of beans
07/17/09

In reply to Mississippi Learning
I can't wait to see this. Boyfriend has relatives in Mississippi and we've clashed over things like this before. My opinion of that state is very, very low.

By the way, anyone know where I can watch this if I don't have HBO?
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Edited by LolaQuinn is full of beans at 07/17/09 12:17 PM

Kylea Boutwell
07/17/09

As a MS resident, I know there are still many practiced bigots here, but how can these residents be expected to learn from the rest of the US when our own country's opinion of us is "very, very low"? The point of the film was to show that our generation is TRYING to change things.
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
07/17/09

@LolaQuinn: My ex was also from MS. He'd be inclined to agree with you, but would blame most of it on the overwhelming poverty.
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LolaQuinn is full of beans
07/17/09

@Kylea Boutwell: No, you're right, I shouldn't disparage the whole state like that. But the news that comes out of it (and the people I've met from it) consistently shock and disappoint me over and over again. I certainly hope that the next generation is able to make significant change in MS and places like it.
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Laulau
07/17/09

@Kylea Boutwell: Agreed that we shouldn't disparage entire geographic regions (being from MI, I think that would lump me with the likes of Timothy McVeigh), but I thought the point of the movie was that people are not trying to change things. From the previous review here, my understanding is that white students continue to try to justify a white only Prom.
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lucyleaf
07/17/09

@LolaQuinn:
No, you're right, I shouldn't disparage the whole state like that. But the news that comes out of it (and the people I've met from it) consistently shock and disappoint me over and over again. I certainly hope that the next generation is able to make significant change in MS and places like it.

Another MS resident (and long-time lurker) piping in here.

I haven't seen "Prom Night in Mississippi" so I can't comment on it, but I have to comment on what's being said about Mississippi.

I see every day how Mississippi still struggles with race, and unfortunately, it's more these struggles and some of the ugliness that still exists that makes it into the movies and the news.

Mississippi, like any other state, is also a microcosm of all sorts of people and things. There are hipsters, junkies, yuppies, hippies, bible thumpers, atheists and many other "types." There is good coffee, great sushi (yes, here in Jackson!), caramel cake to die for. There is also amazing art and music being made here. And all of the above? Done by black and white people, as well as Hispanics and Asians and Native Americans...

One of the reasons I love Jezebel, is that it's a place where you transcend labels, and the whole idea is to be irreverent, nerdy, chaste, sexy, whorish or whatever - to celebrate yourself and challenge yourself to look at someone or something again and see you're not so different.

While I understand that Mississippi and its residents can come off as a place that shocks and disappoints in news stories and in films b/c stuff like that is still a struggle, I urge you to look again and look deeper. And come talk to me about it over sushi and mojitos here.
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LolaQuinn is full of beans
07/17/09

@lucyleaf: No, my second comment was meant as an apology and admittance that I understand that MS has a lot of great things in it. I get what you're saying. BUT MS does still have a lot of social problems...a lot more EXTREME social problems than many other areas of the country have...and I hope you aren't suggesting that we all overlook that because MS offers us sushi and artists.
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colormeroutine
07/17/09

@lucyleaf: While I understand what you're getting at, I don't really see what sushi and cake have to do with the social issues being discussed.
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Southern_Gent
07/17/09

@LolaQuinn: Mississippi is not the only state in this nation with what you refer to as "social problems." Yes, there are overt racists in Mississippi, but I am not sure I'd consider it more racists than other states. People of the current generation have more intergration in schools in Mississippi than in a lot of other places in the country.
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lucyleaf
07/17/09

Please. I am absolutely not suggesting we overlook any social issues or racism because we have sushi or cake or artists or whatever in Mississippi.

I'm not the best writer, but my point of bringing that up in the midst of these social discussions is that MS seems to be being defined here by the social problems. What I am interpreting here is that people are making judgments on the whole state and people because of these social problems. And yes, they still exist, they are still here, a lot of people here address them everyday. We have to. I brought up the fluffy stuff to indicate there's more it than that. Not that it's more important for gods sake.
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LolaQuinn is full of beans
07/17/09

@Southern_Gent: I understand that. I am discussing MS because it is the area at hand in the documentary. Every state has social problems. Some have higher degrees than others. For instance, MS has 22 active hate groups (according to the Southern Poverty Law Center). Iowa and Connecticut, which have comparable populations to MS, have 8 and 5 active hate groups respectively. I think it's safe to say that MS can be considered to have more problems with hate than other states.
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Southern_Gent
07/17/09

@LolaQuinn: In comparison, what are the precentages of nonwhite residents in Iowa and Connecticut? I'm not justifying hating to any extent, but it's hard to hate something you never (rarely) see.
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LolaQuinn is full of beans
07/17/09

@Southern_Gent: Well, now you're theorizing at the origins of the problem, which is irrelevant to the discussion. All I'm concerned with here is the fact that yes, you could technically say that MS has more problems with hate/race than other states (which you seemed dismissive of in your initial comment).
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BAngieB
06/11/09

In reply to Women Who "Looked Gay" Segregated At Virginia Prison
See? One should always dress and behave as a lady. Even in prison.
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shorty63136
06/11/09

In reply to Women Who "Looked Gay" Segregated At Virginia Prison
I can see why they would do this - cutting down on "relationship-related" issues and to keep order in the facility.

However - you're in PRISON. You have rights, but your right to be in a relationship is not one of them - whether you're gay, straight, or something in between. You lost those rights once you were convicted and taken into custody and sentenced for whatever crime you committed. Coming from a family of quite a few corrections officers (the good ones, mind you), the object of the game is to give them their basic needs and maintain order. If they were having problems and had to do this to maintain order, so be it.

(I'm sure this won't be popular.)
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schlegs84
06/11/09

@shorty63136: They were not separating people in established relationships they were separating the less "femme" women from the rest.
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fuzzylizardkitten
06/11/09

@shorty63136: I was thinking this very same thing, but also with the idea that "breaking up relationships" isn't the problem here. It's the segregation based on looks and prejudices and excuses to throw ill slang and words at these women. Like it's an excuse just to sort of throw them around psychologically. That's what bothers me more about this.

I know there could be an argument on how there's snarky comments like calling men "ladies" in prison and other aggressive environments, but to segregate a whole entire group based on something like appearance?
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shorty63136
06/11/09

@fuzzylizardkitten: They tend to do that in men's facilities/wings as well. Those men that purposely dress as women (rolling up the shirts, cutting off pants legs, etc.) have been known to be segregated as well - for a number of reasons.
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Ultraprison!
06/12/09

@shorty63136: I was hoping someone else would say this. You're in prison. Like, what they did was wrong, but you feel degraded? Too bad. You're paying a debt to society. You've done something very, very wrong to end up in jail. Suck it up!
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tonightineed is actually Mrs. Ziegler-Spock
06/11/09

In reply to Women Who "Looked Gay" Segregated At Virginia Prison
Sometimes my state just fails.

Dammit, Virginia, you're supposed to be for lovers. You're screwing up big time and your logic is utter, utter fail.
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bluebears
06/11/09

@tonightineed is actually Mrs. Ziegler-Spock: don't feel bad. Virginia isn't alone, in Michigan there was just a huge case settled that basically detailed systemic sexual abuse/rape of hundreds of female prisoners by guards. The state ignored it despite reams of evidence until the feds got involved.
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hatepaperdoll
06/11/09

In reply to Women Who "Looked Gay" Segregated At Virginia Prison
So if two "masculine looking" women are in a relationship together that makes them what? Gay men?
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Beat Girl
06/11/09

@hatepaperdoll: Perverts?
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hatepaperdoll
06/11/09

@Beat Girl: Unstoppable super gay perverts.
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Beat Girl
06/11/09

In reply to Women Who "Looked Gay" Segregated At Virginia Prison
Aside from the inherent idiocy of this, what is wrong with inmates forming relationships? I can't see what harm it does at all. Male inmates form relationships regularly and it's an accepted by-product of incarceration.
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katekate is squared
06/11/09

@Beat Girl: I can speak to this a little bit, having worked in a correctional setting.

First, it's primarily about the fact that folks who work in and run prisons and jails tend to be conservative, so same-sex relationships are a no-no. For what it's worth, where I worked, it was even LESS acceptable among male inmates. The female deputies in the female wing only watched out for relationships they thought were exploitative or emotionally abusive, or were overly public.

A more important factor, though, is that the setting is ripe for exploitation of the weak, and not just by correctional officers. I was a social worker, and had more than one female client who was being taken advantage of by someone she was in a "relationship" with, even if it was for simple things like her extra food or her soap. It's often for safety, since that environment is so volatile anyhow, and adding a romantic relationship in a setting with already violent offenders (not all of them, obv) is just a bad idea for everyone's safety. Some relationships can probably be healthy in that setting, but many cannot be and are not.
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katekate is squared
06/11/09

@katekate is squared: Having said that, this is a poor solution to anything.
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Beat Girl
06/11/09

@katekate is squared: Aah, thank you for an educated take on the motivations! I mean, the language is certainly what offends about this article, but it's reassuring to know that one or more of the motivations for the actions is based in prisoner care.
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Eleanor Ramilly
06/11/09

@katekate is squared: I just want to agree with Beat Girl and thank you for the imformative comment.

How did the prison handle situations like the one you described for us?
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katekate is squared
06/11/09

@Eleanor Ramilly: I worked in a small facility, so it was easier to monitor and handle. Generally, they would move people to a separate tier if they found out there was a relationship (tiers being kind of like cell blocks, but we had dorm-style facilities). The best they could do was separate people and let them know that kind of behavior wouldn't be tolerated. Sometimes they would strip privileges (outside time, TV time, stuff like that).

Our chaplain, who was also the undersheriff, cracked down REAL quick on any deputies he found to be homophobic, which was terrific, but they still didn't allow relationships, for the reasons I said above.
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RStewie
06/11/09

In reply to Women Who "Looked Gay" Segregated At Virginia Prison
I don't understand the problem to start with. Why aren't they allowed to have girlfriends? Is that against prison rules?

This just seems a little overboard to me. "Jail" doesn't necessarily mean "you can't enjoy anything in life ever" it means "you can't be in the general population".
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Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.
06/11/09

@RStewie: Isn't jail supposed to be punishment?
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bluebears
06/11/09

In reply to Women Who "Looked Gay" Segregated At Virginia Prison
sick but completely unsurprising. the human rights violations that routinely occur in US prisons would turn your hair grey.
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Snowbunny
06/11/09

In reply to Women Who "Looked Gay" Segregated At Virginia Prison
Just because somebody is in prison doesn't mean they don't have basic human rights, Virginia. Remember when we fought that war and signed that shit? Remember how you were heavily involved in that matter? Don't stop believing in the constitution, even if you're a sexist, homophobic, prick.
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clarafier
06/11/09

@Snowbunny: no, no, no! not all virginia! just this particular backasswards jail. the rest of virginia is for lovers.
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jemandtheholograms
06/11/09

@clarafier: but only heterosexual lovers not in jail. lovers fitting into other categories need not apply.
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nex0s
06/11/09

In reply to Women Who "Looked Gay" Segregated At Virginia Prison
SO WEIRD.

I guess the femmes never have relationships either? I am utterly confused.
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Snowbunny
06/11/09

@nex0s: Well duh.

Butch + Femme= dirty lesbian sex

Femme + Femme= shoes and cosmos

Butch + Butch= softball team
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nex0s
06/11/09

@Snowbunny: But I like all three of these things!!!

Crap!
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Snowbunny
06/11/09

@nex0s: You just made my brain explode. Does. Not. Compute.
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scarletbegonia
06/11/09

In reply to Women Who "Looked Gay" Segregated At Virginia Prison
This is rediculous, for many reasons. They could never do this with guys unless...what? They honed their gaydars?
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femputer
06/11/09

@scarletbegonia: No, they do. They segregate effeminate -looking men. Obviously it isn't a fool proof system, but it is for their safety.

I know everyone is up in arms over the un-PC-ness of this (and the guards' nicknames for the wing doesn't help) but Prison is NOT the outside world, and it is for the inmates' safety. In a perfect world, it wouldn't be necessary, but guess what prison ISN'T....
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bluebears
06/11/09

@femputer: well thats all well and good if you could show the specific incidents of violence that that these men/women who are segregated are supposed to have been involved in. Being a prisoner doesn't completely strip you of your constitutional rights.
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Bob Wiley
06/11/09

@femputer: It seems though that in this case they wanted to break up any relationships in order to be sadistic, not so much for the safety of those involved.
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femputer
06/11/09

@bluebears: They are usually the victims, unfortunately. You wouldn't have to show it was these particular individuals who were involved - just likelihoods (so as to avoid lawsuits that officials left some prisoners at a very real risk of being targeted for violence)

I did NOT say it completely strips you of rights to be an inmate (though it does strip you of quite a few...reproduction, voting, obviously, LIBERTY) - I am just pointing out what a lot of the comments here seem to be overlooking; this isn't about preventing loving relationships between inmates. It's about preventing violence, which is a huge part of life inside.
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colormeroutine
06/11/09

@scarletbegonia: In male prisons though I was under the impression that was for safety reasons (or maybe I've just seen too much OZ). While I'm sure there is also plenty of violence in women's prisons I was under the impression that it was less often sexually motivated
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femputer
06/11/09

@Bob Wiley: see, if that is the case, then that is inexcusable. I haven't researched this facility.
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bluebears
06/11/09

@femputer: I read the article and there was no reported incidents of violence they were trying to prevent. Not to mention that prisons already have seperate housing in place for those inmates who need to be put in "protective custody," and its not based on sexual orientation. I'm sorry but this whole thing reeks of discrimation.
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femputer
06/11/09

@Bob Wiley: oh, geez, yeah - just re-read that one guy's alleged statement - that is fucked up. majorly. I skimmed the first time, I'll admit. Forgive me, jezebels.
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Trulymadlyme
06/11/09

@femputer: That was my impression of the policy as well. It was based upon a inmate safety more than anything else.
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Trulymadlyme
06/11/09

@colormeroutine: Rape occurs in women's prisons often, too.
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femputer
06/11/09

@femputer: althooooo inmates still have no rights that I'm aware of to have the company of specific other inmates.
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scarletbegonia
06/11/09

@colormeroutine: Even if it's for safety reasons...there just isn't a foolproof way to tell who is gay, who is violent, etc.
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femputer
06/11/09

@scarletbegonia: You are right. There isn't. They just have to take their best shot at it; they couldn't not bother to designate risks and then go "hey, it's hard!" when something bad happens.
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Trulymadlyme
06/11/09

@scarletbegonia: I don't know whether they're using gay or not gay so much as keeping the bigger, physically stronger women separate from the smaller ones.
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bluebears
06/11/09

@Trulymadlyme: did you read the article? there were no allegations of violence mentioned so I don't know where you're getting that from. Also the words "bigger, physically stronger" were never used.
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Trulymadlyme
06/11/09

@bluebears: I read the article but was positing a reason that I've seen that may explain the situation differently. If I didn't make that clear, my apologies.

@MakeFetch: Exactly what I've seen too, sadly. The implicit inclusion of rape in a prison sentence is cruel and unusual punishment but sadly common.
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CollegeCamel
06/11/09

In reply to Women Who "Looked Gay" Segregated At Virginia Prison
I fail to see the logic here. If, by their "logic," all the women they moved to that wing were lesbians, couldn't they just start relationships with each other? The entire purpose is flawed.
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Eleanor Ramilly
06/11/09

@CollegeCamel: I think, unfortunately, they were relying on the stereotype of butch/femme believed typical in lesbian couplings.
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DangerMouse
06/11/09

@CollegeCamel: Yeah... so they're separating the people they think are lesbians from their supposedly not lesbian girlfriends? Huh? Doesn't it take two women who like women to be a female couple?

Do they just not like the intermixing of butch and femme? "There will be no butch/femme relationships in our prison. Only butch/butch and femme/femme. Take that!"
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ausdenbergen
06/11/09

@DangerMouse: finally: the definition of opposite marriage!
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cate3710
06/11/09

@CollegeCamel: They're assuming that one partner is always butch and that one is always femme, which is obviously flawed logic.

Also, what's wrong with inmates having relationships with each other? (as long as they're consensual, of course) Are they allowed absolutely no happiness?
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DangerMouse
06/11/09

@ausdenbergen: Glad I could be of service.
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formergr
06/11/09

@CollegeCamel: No, because every lesbian relationship consists of one "butch" woman, and one "fem" woman. So if you segregate the butch women from the fems, there won't be any relationships! Problem solved!

/sarcasm (obviously)
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colormeroutine
06/11/09

@CollegeCamel: Maybe they think the more "feminine" women aren't really lesbians? And that if they remove the "real" lesbians they won't have anyone enticing them into relationships? I guess that makes a tiny, tiny bit of sense if you take into account that many people who don't normally identify as gay have same-sex relationships in prison...but still not really
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sympathyforthebasementcat
06/11/09

@CollegeCamel: I think this way they're protecting the "pretty" girls from being seduced into lesbianism. This way, if they succumb to Sapphic desires, at least it's with other hot girls, which is hot. Score!
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shorty63136
06/11/09

@CollegeCamel: Studs/butch women/whatever are not always, rarely - in my personal experience, attracted to other studs. I have seen studs get with other studs before but not very often. I can see why they would do this.
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chatterboxwriting
06/11/09

@cate3710: I am not sure if it is the same in all jails, but I got arrested for an unpaid parking ticket once and had to spend like 22 hours in jail (don't even ask - I had several tickets, paid the amount on the paper I received, and then got arrested because apparently one of the tickets wasn't included in the amount on the paper). According to the inmate handbook, relationships are not allowed. You're also not allowed to masturbate.
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