Since the quiverfull practitioners believe it is god's will to have as many babies as god will give them, do they also think it's god's will to "give" them children with diseases? Seriously, I wonder if any of these women stop and question whether there is a god at all. If there really was one almighty, all-powerful, and omnipotent being out there, wouldn't these diseases not ever exist?
@maggiethecat: Many religious people believe that God gives diseases/struggles because they believe he's trying to teach you something -- that through the struggle you learn to be a better person. #quiverfulls
@judgingamy: How fucking horrible is that? Sorry, Timmy, about that short gut syndrome but God's gonna make a man out of you by golly so suck it up and pray. #quiverfulls
@maggiethecat: Everyone has a different way of dealing with things. If someone feels that religion gives them strength to deal with a horrible disease, that that makes the illness easier to deal with, good for them. It's not necessarily for everyone, but neither is atheism. #quiverfulls
I found Vyckie's blog from a link in one of Jezebel's comments - I think maybe from a comment she left after a Duggar post. I've spent several hours reading her story, which is so interesting and at times shocking and depressing.
I'm so glad she's shared her story, and recommend it to everyone. I'm so mad I missed the show! I made my husband watch it the other night, checking to see if it was her episode. I'll have to find a rerun.
Thanks, Jezebel, for linking about this. #quiverfulls
@Rona: I believe it will re-air next Tuesday night, at least according to my Tivo. I have it set to record, since I found this post fascinating. #quiverfulls
I just watched the clips on the WE Web site and look forward to watching the entire episode on an upcoming air date.
I have a big problem with how these families end up relying on the older children to take care of the younger ones. Say what we will about the Bible, but the raising of children therein seems to be clearly delegated to PARENTS, not older siblings. Oftentimes the older children in Quiverfull families grow up to be anal-retentive responsible while the younger ones, who don't have to do any sibling-rearing, become spoiled and irresponsible. In my opinion, this family structure is unbiblical. Not to mention unhealthy and unfair to the older children. #quiverfulls
@OceanSkater: It sure seems that way to me. My mom was the oldest of seven (Catholic) siblings and I don't feel that she ever got a childhood. She still never takes a moment for herself. If she didn't have anyone to take care of I think she'd just stand stock-still and not do anything ever.
ETA: Not to say ALL large families work that way but hers seems to have.
@OceanSkater: It's the structure of most large families around the world: either post-menopausal or pre-reproductive female relatives step up, unmarried male relatives step up, or older siblings get drafted. Two adults can only do so much. There have to be a certain ratio of non-breeding individuals to breeding individuals in order to meet even the basic needs of small children; the higher the ratio of adults to children, the more needs get met. #quiverfulls
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Vyckie Garrison illustrates the inherent problem with households where the husband is the sole leader and provider. I'm not making a value judgment when I say this either because it's not simply about a lifestyle choice. The truth of the matter is that no one's health and wellbeing is guaranteed. Not yours, or your partner's. Gambling your entire lifestyle on the notion that one partner will be always be able to provide for you and then having that many children is dangerous and rresponsible.
No one counts on their partner getting sick, dying or going blind, but it happens. Think about it; everything is just peaches for the Duggers because Jim Bob brings home the bacon thus enabling Michelle to have over 15 children. But how fast would that tight little ship go under if something were to happen to Jim Bob. #quiverfulls
What I want to know is where "God's will" ends within the Quiverfull movement. Is it just His will for them to multiply? Where does His will come in when providing for such a large family? I don't want to go into the whole complicated and saddening story, but basically my aunt and uncle adhere to this belief and have 7 children they cannot adequately provide for. They seem to think that God's will controls everything, and aren't at all proactive in terms of bettering their own and their children's lives.
Is this part of the belief system, or simply their own laziness?
Anyone else have family members who are part of this? #quiverfulls
@lalie (apologetic mess): I don't know anyone who is part of the movement, though I've know very large families wherein the parents follow a similar (lack of) logic. From what I've read the passiveness that you describe, the total dependency upon "God's will", seems to be the core belief of the Quiverfull movement. #quiverfulls
@lalie (apologetic mess): I have a cousin who had eight eggs frozen for IVF, and she and her husband are very conservative and religious. The first implantation resulted in her conceiving and delivering (with much difficulty and pain) twins, and the second set resulted in a single pregnancy and delivery. She has four to go, and believes that it's her God-given duty to try to bear them all, because each egg = a baby. She doesn't work, and her husband has a shitty job, and they have very little money, but since she froze those eggs, by golly, she's going to make babies of them all. She also gets incredibly sick and unhealthy during her pregnancies, and has dangerous births, despite her best efforts to take prenatal vitamins and do all the right things.
So, not the same as Quiverfull or your aunt and uncle, but somewhat similar. #quiverfulls
@fluxus flucker: edit button not working.
Depending upon God's will in this situation means depending that God will wisely, knowingly choose when a woman will conceive. And God will also, mysteriously, provide everything (housing, food, education, whatever...) that the family needs to survive. I've also read that Quiverful women who have miscarriages are looked down upon as sinners or "wrong in the eyes of the lord". #quiverfulls
@lalie (apologetic mess): My mom is not, but might as well be. For her, though, I think the issue is less what the Church tells her (though believe me, that's a huge issue) and more that she's a "collector," if you will. She was a bit compulsive about having kids-there were never enough. She had to be warned that attempting to have more children would be detrimental to her health before she'd stop getting pregnant.
And yes, Mom was not so good with seeing that having children required a financial investment to see that they were well cared for, had the chance to go to college, etc. God didn't say you should guarantee all of those kids a quality of life or anything, after all! #quiverfulls
@lalie (apologetic mess): Basically, the idea is you raise a lot of godly children to work for the advancement of God's kingdom (there's a strong apocalyptic element to it). Sort of eugenics in reverse. The leap of logic comes in the middle step: God wants humankind to enact his will on earth -- the more people working toward this goal, the more will get done -- having a lot of children creates more agents working toward the goal.
There's also a recursive element, in that having a lot of children is proof of God's favor. The movement takes its name from Psalm 127. The relevant lines are: Sons are a heritage from the LORD, children a reward from him. / Like arrows in the hands of a warrior
are sons born in one’s youth. /Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. They will not be put to shame
when they contend with their enemies in the gate. #quiverfulls
@lalie (apologetic mess): I don't know if this is quite what you're getting at, but I've noticed an annoying tendency among some of my conservative Christian friends to say, whenever they really really want something, that "God is calling" them to get it or do it. There seems to be no attempt to separate their own strong desires from what God wants.
Perhaps this is easy for me to say, though, since I'm an agnostic so I don't really believe there is any God calling me to do anything (I'm ambivalent on whether God exists, but I believe if there is one, ze doesn't really care about our day-to-day minutiae one way or another. #quiverfulls
@lalie (apologetic mess): My cousins are adherents. They are on kid number six and have had 2 homes foreclosed, gone into bankruptcy. When they had "only" three children, at one point were living in the husband's truck cab (he's a truck driver). And yet they had three more...
They don't have health insurance, or life insurance, or any money in the bank. When the father lost his job, they relied on my aunt to cover all of their expenses (incidentally, she too, is now broke). They totally believe that all of this was "God's will" and that Bill losing his job was a test of faith and a chance for the children to bond and for the family to grow closer. While I have no problem with people comforting themselves with the belief that the obsticles in their life are chances to grow as a person, and in their faith (how my mother puts it), I get the feeling that my cousins are just short sighted, slightly lazy people who are easily led.
Actually, that whole side of my family creeps me out.
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Edited by Bubblies-The-Amazing at 11/11/09 9:21 PM
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@lalie (apologetic mess): I think what some people don't understand is just because they CAN do something, doesn't mean God wants them to or it's His plan for them. It's a lesson I've learned as a Christian. I can physically do a lot of things. I can go rob a bank, I can treat someone like dirt, I can jump off a building, I can have lots of children (not equating the latter with all of the former or saying it's bad, I'm just saying it's something I can physically do). But that doesn't mean it's "God's will" for me to do these things. People do bad things all the time and just because they get away with it doesn't mean it's what God wanted. I'm not saying that giving birth to many babies is necessarily bad or makes you a bad person, but I would be wary about saying, "I keep getting pregnant and popping out babies, therefore it's what God wants." Often people just use God as an excuse to justify what they are doing or what they are about to do. If they convince themselves it's God's will then they can live whatever lifestyle they've chosen guilt-free. But it really doesn't work like that. There is nothing in the Bible from what I've seen that points to what these people are doing as being God's will. It's not God's will, it's THEIR will, and they're saying God wants it because they figure that's the best justification they can get. #quiverfulls
I really do encourage people who are interested in Quiverfull in an anthropological way to read Vyckie's blog from start to finish. While I don't think all Quiverfull marriages end up the way hers did, she does an excellent job of documenting, thoroughly and capably, how treating one person as infallible head of the household can distort social relationships beyond all recognizing. It's not a bug, it's a feature. For anyone interested in the opposing viewpoint from someone still in the lifestyle, I recommend googling Generation Cedar. #quiverfulls
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I too am fascinated as someone who was brought up in a less-conservative version of this culture. We were not really like this, but if we had followed our religious leaders instructions, we totally would have been. (However I do have some family members who are exactly like this.) #quiverfulls
@whynotshesaid: My parents were secular humanists who just fell by reasons of culture or personality into the household head/helpmeet pattern, so I think there's a lot of there-but-for-the-grace-of-lack-of-God-go-we when I read these blogs - because my parents were secularists and my mother is a feminist they resisted and negotiated that pattern intelligently and with respect for each other, instead of taking it to the furthest possible extreme. #quiverfulls
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@melissarharden: According to this article, and a number of others, they are:
"The Duggars are followers of the evangelical Christian movement called Quiverful, which teaches that children are God’s blessing and that husbands and wives should happily welcome every child they are given." [today.msnbc.msn.com]#quiverfulls
@melissarharden: While they might not say that they are part of the official movement, their rhetoric and story about no longer using birth control were highly colored by the movement. It's like saying, "I'm not a Christian, but I believe in Christ being the only son of God, both fully God and human who died on the cross for the forgiveness of my sins. Oh and I learned everything about my ideas from someone who is a Christian." Okay, so, you say that you aren't a Christian but essentially you believe everything that Christians believed and developed your ideas from Christian theology, okay then. So, not bad journalism, just calling a spade a spade. #quiverfulls
@Jenloveshercurves: Eh, the whole quiverfull thing comes from a Bible verse. There are many people who identify with that verse who are not affiliated with the quiverfull movement. The quiverfull people would probably deny association with the many Mormons and Catholics who use that verse to justify large families, for example. I even know people who use birth control because they believe their quiver is full already (and they don't mean it sarcastically), and the people in the quiverful movement would certainly disagree with that.
So in one sense, yes, the Duggars are quiverfull, but I think it's totally fair to say they are not since they publicly deny being part of that movement. #quiverfulls
@Plate2.18: You are illustrating my point here. They base their beliefs on the same rhetoric that the Quiverfull people do and then live out those ideals. So they might not want to say that they are a part of the movement, but in action and belief they are. As you can see up-thread they work with the same organizations that are at the base of the Quiverfull movement. So, when it looks like a duck, acts like a duck and quacks. Well, you know. #quiverfulls
@Jenloveshercurves: Sure, but the movement is not quite the same as the general belief. The Duggars are certainly relevant in discussions such as these, but it is inaccurate to say they are part of the quiverfull movement.
The rhetoric has been around for longer than the movement. I don't think you can say that they get their ideas from the movement; they're two things coming from the same source, like Baptists and Methodists or something (obviously a faulty analogy). There were a lot of people who agreed with the general idea and identified with the quiverfull verse until that specific movement became prominent.
I'm not sure why they would say they're not part of the movement if they agree with all the belief; they're very public about their Gothard connection, which to me is even worse PR-wise. #quiverfulls
'When I shut off my brain and became willing to do whatever Mark said, he was delighted. Absolutely delighted. And everything changed. Everything. The first thing he did was give me a list on how I was to clean the bathroom. I had daily chores and weekly chores from him, down to minute details.
I remember the first day I followed his list. I was humiliated. It was as if I was a child again and he was the parent. I told him that, too (in a humbled and submissive way, of course) and he smiled and said, "Exactly. Your parents did a terrible job of raising you when it comes to cleaning, and now God has given you to me so that I can raise you and help you become the way you should be."' #quiverfulls
@Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!: Ewww! I need some brain bleach after that. Good on her for leaving that patriarchal, controlling freak. Who gives a crap HOW the bathroom is cleaned, as long as it is? #quiverfulls
@Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!: My ex-husband said similar shit to me. He was at one time a conservative Christian Republican, although he never stepped foot in a church or cracked a Bible in the nine years we were together. #quiverfulls
The pressure to present a "perfect facade" crosses all races, faiths and social classes. American society seems more willing to challenge this but we have a long way to go. #quiverfulls
@sybann: I think that there is particular pressure within the Quiverfull movement to be 'perfect', particularly for women to be perfect wives and mothers who submit fully to their husbands and to their belief system. And also to show those outside of the movement how blessed i.e. perfect their lives are as a way to fight criticism. #quiverfulls
@serendous: And like most facades - it's just that, a cover for flawed humans doing the best they can - with an awful, irresponsible interpretation of a work of fiction. #quiverfulls
First off, I KNOW the guy she was on the date with! He is indeed hot and very cool.
Secondly - There have been recent findings that people who obsess over healthy food, eating, restriction are in fact employing some of the same tactics/coping mechanisms of Anorexics, Addicts and so forth. It's called Ortorexia Nervosa. And like many addictions, diseases this is about control.
Do I know this woman? No, so I cant deny/hold up what she says about her addictions simply disappearing. It's not my place, what I can say is that there is no overnight cure all for addiction. Most programs will express that it can take your entire life to control your addiction. You are never really "cured" of it, if this helps her copse and get through life then BRAVO. But every person is different and I don't think Raw food will cure everyone of addiction or health issues, we are a hell of alot more complicated than that.
@GreenEyedMedusa: I completely agree - the whole raw food business gets my ire up not because of what it is in itself - personally, I'm all about fruit and vegetables - but because its advocates tend to act like it's some sort of cure-all, with their detox nonsense...I, for one, feel like a lot of the results - which tend to be "I FEEL better," not measurable scientific things - can be chalked up to placebo effect. Then again, it's been known to work, so more power to them I guess. Generally I'm against all-out restricting of any kind, so I'm not a huge supporter of any diet that requires cutting out anything without exception
Makes sense. Trading one obsession for another. That's the thing with diets – some women crave the structure (ha ha, I'm punny). When no one's telling them how much oatmeal they can have, exactly, the go nuts. And usually end up binging. In conclusion, America is not a land of moderation.
I don't see the "addiction" element here so clearly -- she's a chef, so it's her job to be obsessed about food. Also, the raw food movement makes for a huge niche market -- so it's probably in her best career interests to be focused on this stuff as well.
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Just don't get it. #quiverfulls
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I'm a born again secular humanist. #quiverfulls
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I'm so glad she's shared her story, and recommend it to everyone. I'm so mad I missed the show! I made my husband watch it the other night, checking to see if it was her episode. I'll have to find a rerun.
Thanks, Jezebel, for linking about this. #quiverfulls
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I have a big problem with how these families end up relying on the older children to take care of the younger ones. Say what we will about the Bible, but the raising of children therein seems to be clearly delegated to PARENTS, not older siblings. Oftentimes the older children in Quiverfull families grow up to be anal-retentive responsible while the younger ones, who don't have to do any sibling-rearing, become spoiled and irresponsible. In my opinion, this family structure is unbiblical. Not to mention unhealthy and unfair to the older children. #quiverfulls
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ETA: Not to say ALL large families work that way but hers seems to have.
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No one counts on their partner getting sick, dying or going blind, but it happens. Think about it; everything is just peaches for the Duggers because Jim Bob brings home the bacon thus enabling Michelle to have over 15 children. But how fast would that tight little ship go under if something were to happen to Jim Bob. #quiverfulls
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Is this part of the belief system, or simply their own laziness?
Anyone else have family members who are part of this? #quiverfulls
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So, not the same as Quiverfull or your aunt and uncle, but somewhat similar. #quiverfulls
11/11/09
Depending upon God's will in this situation means depending that God will wisely, knowingly choose when a woman will conceive. And God will also, mysteriously, provide everything (housing, food, education, whatever...) that the family needs to survive. I've also read that Quiverful women who have miscarriages are looked down upon as sinners or "wrong in the eyes of the lord". #quiverfulls
11/11/09
And yes, Mom was not so good with seeing that having children required a financial investment to see that they were well cared for, had the chance to go to college, etc. God didn't say you should guarantee all of those kids a quality of life or anything, after all! #quiverfulls
11/11/09
There's also a recursive element, in that having a lot of children is proof of God's favor. The movement takes its name from Psalm 127. The relevant lines are: Sons are a heritage from the LORD, children a reward from him. / Like arrows in the hands of a warrior
are sons born in one’s youth. /Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. They will not be put to shame
when they contend with their enemies in the gate. #quiverfulls
11/11/09
Perhaps this is easy for me to say, though, since I'm an agnostic so I don't really believe there is any God calling me to do anything (I'm ambivalent on whether God exists, but I believe if there is one, ze doesn't really care about our day-to-day minutiae one way or another. #quiverfulls
11/11/09
They don't have health insurance, or life insurance, or any money in the bank. When the father lost his job, they relied on my aunt to cover all of their expenses (incidentally, she too, is now broke). They totally believe that all of this was "God's will" and that Bill losing his job was a test of faith and a chance for the children to bond and for the family to grow closer. While I have no problem with people comforting themselves with the belief that the obsticles in their life are chances to grow as a person, and in their faith (how my mother puts it), I get the feeling that my cousins are just short sighted, slightly lazy people who are easily led.
Actually, that whole side of my family creeps me out.
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I too am fascinated as someone who was brought up in a less-conservative version of this culture. We were not really like this, but if we had followed our religious leaders instructions, we totally would have been. (However I do have some family members who are exactly like this.) #quiverfulls
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"The Duggars are followers of the evangelical Christian movement called Quiverful, which teaches that children are God’s blessing and that husbands and wives should happily welcome every child they are given."
[today.msnbc.msn.com] #quiverfulls
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So in one sense, yes, the Duggars are quiverfull, but I think it's totally fair to say they are not since they publicly deny being part of that movement. #quiverfulls
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The rhetoric has been around for longer than the movement. I don't think you can say that they get their ideas from the movement; they're two things coming from the same source, like Baptists and Methodists or something (obviously a faulty analogy). There were a lot of people who agreed with the general idea and identified with the quiverfull verse until that specific movement became prominent.
I'm not sure why they would say they're not part of the movement if they agree with all the belief; they're very public about their Gothard connection, which to me is even worse PR-wise. #quiverfulls
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'When I shut off my brain and became willing to do whatever Mark said, he was delighted. Absolutely delighted. And everything changed. Everything. The first thing he did was give me a list on how I was to clean the bathroom. I had daily chores and weekly chores from him, down to minute details.
I remember the first day I followed his list. I was humiliated. It was as if I was a child again and he was the parent. I told him that, too (in a humbled and submissive way, of course) and he smiled and said, "Exactly. Your parents did a terrible job of raising you when it comes to cleaning, and now God has given you to me so that I can raise you and help you become the way you should be."' #quiverfulls
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Secondly - There have been recent findings that people who obsess over healthy food, eating, restriction are in fact employing some of the same tactics/coping mechanisms of Anorexics, Addicts and so forth. It's called Ortorexia Nervosa. And like many addictions, diseases this is about control.
Do I know this woman? No, so I cant deny/hold up what she says about her addictions simply disappearing. It's not my place, what I can say is that there is no overnight cure all for addiction. Most programs will express that it can take your entire life to control your addiction. You are never really "cured" of it, if this helps her copse and get through life then BRAVO. But every person is different and I don't think Raw food will cure everyone of addiction or health issues, we are a hell of alot more complicated than that.
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