what gets me is not that there's a white guy pretending to be chinese and maybe not doing such a terrible job, but the trend which seems to condone "yellow-face," but calls "black-face" reprehensible. its been "okay" to make up white models in geisha makeup and slap a kimono on them. no one bothers to say anything, and you can call it art. make up a white model in blackface and you might as well have killed a puppy dog with your bare hands.
to defend those who were offended by will forte's accent, as a filipino-american who grew up in rural pennsylania (and who does not speak with a chinese accent), anyone -- regardless of color -- who dares talk in a contrived "asian" accent conjures up memories of my childhood i would rather forget. this, i believe, is what makes it so hurtful to an asian to hear any sort of "ching-chong," good or bad. while african-americans deal with the american history of prejudice, newly arrived asians must constantly -- and on a day to day basis -- deal with the social stigma of looking so distinguishably different, often of having different cultural priorities, and being stereotyped. even our role models have fallen into stereotypical molds. actresses of asian descent cannot fulfill roles specifically written for an asian woman without resorting to plastic surgery.
What constitutes yellow face? Is it automatically yellow face when a white man pretends to speak in an Asian language? I ask because Forte really didn't do anything to make himself into a stereotypical "Asian.' There was no slanting of the eyes, there was no wearing of rice paddy hats and hell, the impression was basically Will Forte standing really stiff while looking angry. I don't see how this is yellow face. As many commenters downthread mentioned, his linguistic impression was pretty good for someone who does not speak Mandarin. There was no "ching chong ding dong" mockery. It really seemed that Will actually did some research into what Mandarin sounds like.
I don't know, I'm East Asian and I didn't find this sketch offensive. I'm generally over sensitive to racial issues but man, I can't rage about this. It was a dumb sketch for sure, but I don't think it was racist.
I didn't think the sketch was funny, but the imitation of Mandarin was not that bad for someone who does not actually speak Mandarin.
"ching chong" fake Chinese is a lot more obvious, while this imitation of Mandarin language had good imitation of the elongated "r"s and "tsu/shu"/xiu sounds.
Also Fred look the most like BO, while his voice is about as close an approximation as anyone else I've heard.
@logruszed: I've gotta agree with the impersonation of Mandarin syllables. Rosie O'Donnell did "ching chong". This was at least an attempt at mimicking the sounds.
@logruszed: I only saw the first minute or so (then got bored), but I was reasonably impressed by Will Forte's "Mandarin". I assumed he was doing some sort of Mandarin version of lorem ipsum, or reading phonetically off of a cue card.
Also, Armisen's Obama impression sucks. There's so much to be mined from Obama's speaking style and verbal tics, but he barely even tries. I think this dude should be hired to play Obama:
I thought the 'do sex to me' thing was a pretty funny joke about the limitations of translation when it comes to idioms. Also, that Kate Rigg quote doesn't really apply here. Because the fake mandarin was just a means of getting to the end - the punch-line is we're lecturing China and maybe patronizing them at times when we just happen to owe them a quadrillion dollars.
@KW03: I liked this sketch. I thought it dragged on too long, but the "do sex to me" thing made me think about the book the Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time which is a book I love. I agree with you that the joke is that America is screwing China over by owing them way more money than can be paid back and meanwhile trying to act the parent. Also that is a point that seldom gets made anywhere in the American media. Should SNL pump up the diversity of it's staff? Absolutely. But there were way worse things about the show this weekend than this sketch.
Okay, I was totally on board with Latoya until I actually watched this. Yes, this skit really highlights SNL's lack of diversity, and personally I think SNL isn't funny anyway. But having lived in Japan and travelled around many different parts of Asia, I'm very attuned to Asian stereotypes. I actually think that Will Forte did a very good impression of Mandarin--perhaps the best anyone could do without actually speaking Mandarin. And the translator barely had an accent at all, actually much less so than most of the real translators I've heard. I really think the joke wasn't intended to be in his fake Mandarin or her accent, which I think were pretty respectfully handled.
I agree that SNL needs to be more diverse, but I can't get behind this straight-ethnic casting. By that logic, if they had an Asian guy in the cast, he would HAVE to play Hu and Kim Jong-Il and whoever else, and maybe he looks NOTHING like them, maybe impressions aren't his strong suit, and maybe his fake Mandarin is atrocious. I think that's kind of casting is racist too.
This kind of reminds me of that plus-sized French model who walked in (I think) a Jean-Paul Gaultier lingerie runway show, and everyone assumed that her appearance was intended as a joke, that it was supposed to contribute to a circus freak atmosphere, etc. Her response was that it didn't surprise her that they would think that, since the only high-profile images of fat people are either as sources of comedy or as headless bodies in news programs about obesity. Maybe because historically there has been so much mockery of Asians, their accents, their language, that we can't even see a portrayal of an Asian accent or impression of their language without assuming it's intended for mockery.
@archipelagic: I think SNL could avoid the casting issues you bring up if they actually had a diverse cast, as opposed to tokenism. Yeah, if they only have one Asian guy, he can't be all things to all people. But why should they have just one?
I also don't see why they couldn't bring in celebrities guests of different ethnicities for skits like this, as they often have random celebrities on the show, in addition to the host.
@thesciencegirl: See, even if they brought on guests, it would wreak of tokenism. They would need someone somewhat high profile in the states to justify the guest appearance, so we're looking at someone like George Takei, John Cho, or Jackie Chan (theoretically). Takei and Cho are not of Chinese descent and don't speak Mandarin, so they'd be doing a Mandarin impression too and just because they're Asian doesn't necessarily mean they'd do it better/handle it more sensitively. And Jackie Chan speaks Cantonese, not Mandarin, so he wouldn't necessarily do a better job either.
I think the guest-star would also highlight their lack of diversity, like when they brought on Maya Rudolph of all people to be Michelle Obama. Basically, a lot of these issues would be alleviated with a more diverse cast. But even if they have that cast, I hope they can get beyond tokenism and strict racial casting. As someone below said, if an Asian woman can do a kick-ass Paris Hilton, let her do it.
As I said elsewhere, I tuned in hoping for Feylin. And got this instead. It's just not funny. Rinse and repeat this ad nauseum. The bend-over thing was offensive. Which is why the boy-writers repeated it 12 times.
I know that turning out that much new material every week is insane. But SNL is supposed to attract the cream of the crop. With the talent pool in the entire country (and Canada), it just seems SNL could do better. I know obscure improvisers from here in Detroit who could make a smoother show, I’m sure.
I was surprised to read this whole critique and see no mention of the sexism/homophobia inherent to the running joke "Do sex to me!"
Another note: the translator would not necessarily be ethnic Chinese. She'd be supplied by the State Department. Anyway, Nasim Pedrad is Asian. There are countries in Asia besides China, Japan, and Korea.
@Jeangenie: So forgive me if I royally screw this up, but back when the Mavs had an Asian player (Chinese, I believe) there was a discussion that the last name is actually the first name or something of that matter. So, I don't know if they were entirely incorrect. Feel free to tear me a new one if I'm wrong.
@Triana Orpheus: When you are here, bets are off. Follow the particular person's preference, but the assumption is that the surname is first in Chinese names.
An actor in black-face and yellow-face is clearly racist when racially stereotyped features are exaggerated for laughs (buck teeth, for example). But I don't like where LaToya's argument is going when it comes to casting only the "correct" ethnicity to impersonate somebody. If they had an Asian man on staff, would he be stuck doing Kim Jong Il and President Jintao all the time? If they had an Asian woman who could do a great Paris Hilton in a wig, should she not be allowed?
Clearly this is hypothetical, since the SNL cast is not diverse. So let's criticize the lack of diversity and not the propriety of casting 'against race'.
@Gumbina80: Or maybe say that in our colorblind society, you don't have to be "racially authentic" to parody someone.
If the humor had been pitch perfect, would we be complaining? Plenty of black comedians made fun of Bush without a problem. Is it only when someone is un-funny that we get to paint them as a racist?
@Cairn: I mean, I think the issue is the misplaced joke. Instead of poking fun at an actual political situation, the punchline is, "check out the asians!" Making an actual joke and failing is one thing; completely neglecting to make a joke in the first place is another.
Um, this is comedy. While it wasn't overtly funny, and it did occur to me that SNL would be better off with some actual asian cast-members, as well as black ones, I didn't find this sketch offensive. No one was wearing 'yellow-face.' I mean, how else are you supposed to represent a Chinese prime-minister, given the no-asian-cast-member limitations? The fact that Will Fore was speaking in 'ching-ching' is a non-issue, as his dialogue was low-volume. Neither was the translator's use of language so much a part of the sketch as the fact that America owes China a shit-load of money. That was, in my mind, the whole joke. To find this offensive is like saying that Keenan Thompson shouldn't be playing the Reba character in the digital short, but rather have a white female cast-member play that role (though I know the whole joke there was that it was a black guy in a wig). This is just taking political correctness to an unnecessary level of scrutiny.
@NotCoolEnough: Yeah, I mean, that's why I always whisper racial slurs -- if they're low-volume, they totally don't count. Kind of like how calories don't exist if I eat ice cream directly out of the carton, while standing in front of an open freezer.
@NotCoolEnough: So, in other words, they could have done the sketch without the "ching-ching" and the translator's use of language in the way it was used and the whole joke would have remained intact.
@thesciencegirl: You know, I can't hear Forte very well, but it sounds like he's at least speaking something approaching Chinese. It's not a though he's actually saying "ching-ching-chong."
@AcadianDriftwood: yeeeeeah, I don't speak any Chinese dialects, but I'm pretty sure he's speaking gibberish, despite not actually using the words "ching" or "chong."
@AcadianDriftwood: Uh, yeah, I speak Chinese. It wasn't Chinese. He wasn't even doing a phonetic attempt at Chinese.
If the point was to call out Obama for ripping China while at the same time ignoring the fact that the US owes China a boatload of money, there were better (and funnier) ways to illustrate that point without making the sketch all about "Asians sound funny when they're mad! Laugh riot!"
I know SNL is not the height of political correctness but c'mon, you couldn't have given a break to a couple of Asian comics? Did these guys not see Harold and Kumar Go To White Castle? Maybe Harold could have used the work! He's certainly good at playing seething outrage for laughs.
@girlleastlikelyto: " (More common than one might think.) "
Not really. It's actually incredibly common.
It just depends on who "one" is.
People who say things like "You're just looking for racism and/or something to be upset about" don't get that people get racism fatigue because it's actually around all the time -- it's just that they're completely oblivious to its commonality because it doesn't affect them adversely.
@willwriteforfood: Eesh, I'm sorry. I had a smidgen of slightly politically-correct hope left for my beloved SNL, and I can't imagine why they would just make up words instead of use a real Chinese speech. My apologies.
Upon rereading this, it sounds really sarcastic, but I'm not, I promise.
Being that SNL derives most of their humor from pop cultural and political references, it would seriously behoove them to hire some POC. Stat. I mean, from a purely commercial standpoint, they are essentially missing out on the ability to impersonate any one that isn't white or a black man without resorting to Keenan in drag or some pretty painful racial performance. Because of this they are unable to include any material having to do with the first lady, which has been an SNL standby for decades. And now it is painfully obvious they are unable to touch anything with asian character. So they inevitably fall back on this incredibly pathetic bullshit. God forbid something else culturally relevant occurs that has to do with China.
To put it in terms they might understand: Really SNL? Really?
I'm not sure it's the skit itself that was offensive or even having Caucasian people play people of another race (I don't find Armisen's Obama offensive). I think it just served, along with the credits, to highlight how dishwater the cast is. So instead of, 'Wow, what a crappy, racist sketch' I found myself thinking, 'What a crappy sketch. And how embarrassing to not have a black dude or woman to play Obama OR a single East Asian to play the other two. What on Earth is keeping them from hiring more women, non-white people and non-white women? Even if the writers and producers and network execs are racist and sexist and think women aren't funny and non-whites suck, the new people wouldn't even have to be good – it's not like they could be any worse.'
Also, in true SNL fashion, while I laughed at the first 'do sex to me' line (and, in all fairness, I came in a few seconds in half sober and had no idea who anyone was supposed to be except Obama), it became less and less funny with every single repeat.
11/23/09
11/24/09
11/23/09
to defend those who were offended by will forte's accent, as a filipino-american who grew up in rural pennsylania (and who does not speak with a chinese accent), anyone -- regardless of color -- who dares talk in a contrived "asian" accent conjures up memories of my childhood i would rather forget. this, i believe, is what makes it so hurtful to an asian to hear any sort of "ching-chong," good or bad. while african-americans deal with the american history of prejudice, newly arrived asians must constantly -- and on a day to day basis -- deal with the social stigma of looking so distinguishably different, often of having different cultural priorities, and being stereotyped. even our role models have fallen into stereotypical molds. actresses of asian descent cannot fulfill roles specifically written for an asian woman without resorting to plastic surgery.
11/23/09
I don't know, I'm East Asian and I didn't find this sketch offensive. I'm generally over sensitive to racial issues but man, I can't rage about this. It was a dumb sketch for sure, but I don't think it was racist.
11/23/09
"ching chong" fake Chinese is a lot more obvious, while this imitation of Mandarin language had good imitation of the elongated "r"s and "tsu/shu"/xiu sounds.
Also Fred look the most like BO, while his voice is about as close an approximation as anyone else I've heard.
11/23/09
11/23/09
Also, Armisen's Obama impression sucks. There's so much to be mined from Obama's speaking style and verbal tics, but he barely even tries. I think this dude should be hired to play Obama:
11/23/09
11/23/09
11/23/09
I agree that SNL needs to be more diverse, but I can't get behind this straight-ethnic casting. By that logic, if they had an Asian guy in the cast, he would HAVE to play Hu and Kim Jong-Il and whoever else, and maybe he looks NOTHING like them, maybe impressions aren't his strong suit, and maybe his fake Mandarin is atrocious. I think that's kind of casting is racist too.
This kind of reminds me of that plus-sized French model who walked in (I think) a Jean-Paul Gaultier lingerie runway show, and everyone assumed that her appearance was intended as a joke, that it was supposed to contribute to a circus freak atmosphere, etc. Her response was that it didn't surprise her that they would think that, since the only high-profile images of fat people are either as sources of comedy or as headless bodies in news programs about obesity. Maybe because historically there has been so much mockery of Asians, their accents, their language, that we can't even see a portrayal of an Asian accent or impression of their language without assuming it's intended for mockery.
11/23/09
I also don't see why they couldn't bring in celebrities guests of different ethnicities for skits like this, as they often have random celebrities on the show, in addition to the host.
11/23/09
I think the guest-star would also highlight their lack of diversity, like when they brought on Maya Rudolph of all people to be Michelle Obama. Basically, a lot of these issues would be alleviated with a more diverse cast. But even if they have that cast, I hope they can get beyond tokenism and strict racial casting. As someone below said, if an Asian woman can do a kick-ass Paris Hilton, let her do it.
11/23/09
I know that turning out that much new material every week is insane. But SNL is supposed to attract the cream of the crop. With the talent pool in the entire country (and Canada), it just seems SNL could do better. I know obscure improvisers from here in Detroit who could make a smoother show, I’m sure.
11/23/09
Another note: the translator would not necessarily be ethnic Chinese. She'd be supplied by the State Department. Anyway, Nasim Pedrad is Asian. There are countries in Asia besides China, Japan, and Korea.
11/23/09
11/23/09
And President Hu does NOT give Press Conferences.
11/23/09
11/23/09
11/23/09
11/23/09
Clearly this is hypothetical, since the SNL cast is not diverse. So let's criticize the lack of diversity and not the propriety of casting 'against race'.
11/23/09
If the humor had been pitch perfect, would we be complaining? Plenty of black comedians made fun of Bush without a problem. Is it only when someone is un-funny that we get to paint them as a racist?
11/23/09
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11/23/09
It's OK to be racist if:
you're talking to someone who agrees with you.
there aren't any "ethnic" people around.
it's supposed to be funny -- people should just lighten up!
you are a racial minority yourself -- proceed with a "It's OK for me to say this because I'm [race]" disclaimer.
you don't think there's anything wrong with being racist. (More common than one might think.)
11/23/09
If the point was to call out Obama for ripping China while at the same time ignoring the fact that the US owes China a boatload of money, there were better (and funnier) ways to illustrate that point without making the sketch all about "Asians sound funny when they're mad! Laugh riot!"
I know SNL is not the height of political correctness but c'mon, you couldn't have given a break to a couple of Asian comics? Did these guys not see Harold and Kumar Go To White Castle? Maybe Harold could have used the work! He's certainly good at playing seething outrage for laughs.
11/23/09
It's OK to be racist if:
you're using the "original" or Webster's dictionary definition of a slur, which totally isn't about race at all
it's just a movie/tv show/book
it's ironic
you're just giving your opinion, and we have a right to free speech in this country!
11/23/09
Not really. It's actually incredibly common.
It just depends on who "one" is.
People who say things like "You're just looking for racism and/or something to be upset about" don't get that people get racism fatigue because it's actually around all the time -- it's just that they're completely oblivious to its commonality because it doesn't affect them adversely.
11/24/09
Upon rereading this, it sounds really sarcastic, but I'm not, I promise.
11/23/09
To put it in terms they might understand: Really SNL? Really?
11/23/09
Also, in true SNL fashion, while I laughed at the first 'do sex to me' line (and, in all fairness, I came in a few seconds in half sober and had no idea who anyone was supposed to be except Obama), it became less and less funny with every single repeat.