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"I Hope Semenya Will Come Out Of This Better Than I Did"
Beijing Officials To Test Female Olympic Hopefuls For Sex Abnormalities

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Elizabth_Bennet
09/02/09

In reply to "I Hope Semenya Will Come Out Of This Better Than I Did"
I'm really confused about the Santhi Soundarajan case. If she is insensitive to testosterone how would she have a demonstrable advantage over other women? Is the Y a chromosomal advantage on it's own that would make her naturally better at running than her female competitors? Furthermore why is a genetic advantage in a woman unfair while a genetic advantage in a man (I say Michael Phelps must have some fish DNA, test him for that!) is accepted? Aren't all athletes genetically advantaged over regular human beings? Let's stop them from competing because it's unfair to us normal humans who will never be able to run/swim that fast or jump that high!
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JerkoftheMonth
09/02/09

In reply to "I Hope Semenya Will Come Out Of This Better Than I Did"
THis is so infuriating. There is no chance that these same women would be tested if they weren't as good as they are, so it really has nothing to do with their supposed 'manly' looks. It has to do completely with them being considered too good to be women.

Therefore, in response, I demand a genetic test of Usain Bolt to prove he doesn't have ladyparts. I chose to believe his awesomeness is because he's a girl. Michael Phelps, too.
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mattharvest
09/02/09

@JerkoftheMonth: that makes no sense, though. Men outperform women uniformly in these events, and so a woman pretending to be a man would be handicapping themselves in terms of competition.

Moreover, of course this is about performance, not appearance. Why should the other competitors care if a male-looking "female" is competiting but failing? You only care about people cheating when they win, for the same reason. If they're losing, they're not hurting anyone.
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thesciencegirl
09/02/09

In reply to "I Hope Semenya Will Come Out Of This Better Than I Did"
I guess this answers my question from last week's thread about how sports officials handle athletes with hormonal or genetic variations in sex. Ridiculous.

Santhi Soundarajan sounds like an amazing woman, and I'm really glad that she's doing something positive for future runners.
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DutchessOfDork
09/02/09

In reply to "I Hope Semenya Will Come Out Of This Better Than I Did"
Lance Armstrong is genetically superior for his sport, take away his medals.
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
09/02/09

@DutchessOfDork: It's like Robin Williams' bit about how only having one testicle makes Lance Armstrong more aerodynamic, only not funny. So really, it's actually exactly the same.
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Edited by Zombie Ms. Skittles at 09/02/09 1:13 PM

bluebears
09/02/09

@DutchessOfDork: eh. I still think he was juicing.
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DutchessOfDork
09/02/09

@DutchessOfDork: I should have elaborated. He apparently has a larger heart than other people and is more equipped for sports.
[sportales.com]
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schweppes
09/02/09

In reply to "I Hope Semenya Will Come Out Of This Better Than I Did"
I think this is difficult, though, because there isn't some universal medical definition of gender (apparently chromosomes aren't enough) but sports are divided very much into two camps that have only old-fashioned views of gender used as definitions. We know it's unwise to lump all humans together into one competition, but is it really feasible (and, ultimately, just going to marginalize intersex people) to have an "other" group of competitors? So, really, if we're going to try to fit the square gendered pegs of the world into one of two gender "holes," there needs to be an honest and candid conversation about what male and female mean in the athletic world. Automatically stripping someone of their accomplishments if they turn out to be intersex is obviously unhelpful, but so is a) blasting the fact that gender testing is done at all and b) having a knee-jerk reaction any time anyone IS ousted because of intersex issues. There will be zero motivation to create clear guidelines if, when someone doesn't pass those guidelines against their self-identity (because it just cannot be only based on self-identity), there is a moral outrage.
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Edited by schweppes at 09/02/09 12:58 PM schweppes was starred schweppes was unstarred

nora charles
09/02/09

@schweppes: I very much agree that it's a more complicated issue than most posters are making it. The race officials, at least in Semenya's case, have made it clear that simply being intersex isn't cause for elimination. You have to have a condition that provides you with a genetic advantage based on your sex. A lot of people seem to be calling for an end to that, and letting anyone who is intersex but identifies as a woman compete in the women's division. But what happens if we do that? Well, coaches will start sex testing early on, and refuse to coach most, if not all, of the females that come to them in favor of coaching runners with genetically advantageous intersex conditions. Given identical training, those with advantageous intersex conditions would beat out females in all but the very, very rarest of cases . . . so why even bother training females, then?

I don't see that as an ideal solution, either. And to be honest, I can't really think of a solution that doesn't put somebody at an unfair advantage.
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Edited by nora charles at 09/02/09 3:54 PM nora charles was starred nora charles was unstarred

Anycah
09/02/09

@nora charles: I don't think intersex is that widespread to have it take over women's sports entirely.
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phedre
09/02/09

In reply to "I Hope Semenya Will Come Out Of This Better Than I Did"
When will people realize that sex isn't as simple as an X or Y chromosome?

Here's an awesome commentary on Caster Semenya: [sports.espn.go.com]

From the article by Mary Buckheit, which says it better than I can:

"But like so many other female athletes, her athletic prowess and physical appearance have triggered a barrage of personal questions that male athletes don't have to deal with.

Shaquille O'Neal is a veritable giant, genetically unlike almost any man we know, but we don't ask if he's human. Instead, we call him an athletic freak. A superman. Michael Phelps' torso-to-leg proportions, combined with his large paddle-like hands, make him a marine machine. Yet we call it a gift, not a laughable genetic blunder. Jockeys with 27-inch waists and small shoulders might lack the physical stature we've come to expect of men. Still, we don't call them womanly. We deem them built to race horses.

There's an undeniable double standard at work in sports. As long as women have competed (and as long as evolving attire has allowed us to see their bodies), people have depreciated and humiliated some of the best female athletes by calling them manly. Their enigmatic strength and athleticism is countered with derisive criticism and gender judgments. Society wants women to be toned, not muscular. That's weird. It hopes women are athletic, but not too competitive.

[...] What if we assume Semenya is telling the truth? (As we should.) What if she is just an 18-year-old South African woman? What if she's not a cheater? What if she's not on the juice? What if she's just a remarkable athlete?

There are so many things to consider in these sensitive situations. The first is that we're not asking someone to prove that his or her urine and blood are clean. We're asking someone -- today, a South African teenager -- to justify what we've been conditioned to consider male or masculine. We're asking her for an alibi for her inexplicable athleticism."
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Zombie Ms. Skittles promoted this comment Edited by phedre at 09/02/09 12:58 PM phedre was starred phedre was unstarred

Zombie Ms. Skittles
09/02/09

@phedre: That's perfect. Thanks for linking to the article!
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sympathyforthebasementcat
09/02/09

In reply to "I Hope Semenya Will Come Out Of This Better Than I Did"
This is absurd. AIS doesn't make you a man! She is a woman, and I think it's unfair for her to be banned from competing because of a y chromosome that does nothing. Is she suppose to run as a man when she lives as a woman? That's insulting.
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debo matar la zombi goldberry83
09/02/09

In reply to "I Hope Semenya Will Come Out Of This Better Than I Did"
Good lord, that is beyond ridiculous. I am so damn sick of this gender essentialism; if Soundajaran has androgen insensitivity, that means that she is actually *insensitive to testosterone*! She probably has less reaction to it than I do! But because she's got a Y chromosome, she's suddenly not a woman? And then you get this wide-eyed sensationalism with prurient reports about something that could destroy everything these young women have worked for.
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Eriu
09/02/09

In reply to "I Hope Semenya Will Come Out Of This Better Than I Did"
Ok, here's what I still don't understand about either case: They were "suspicious she was using performance enhancing drugs." Why, then, did they ask them to undergo sex testing? Even if the test detects both gender and drugs, I don't understand why people are acting as though "We think you're using steroids" and "We think you're a man" are one and the same, or interchangeable.
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Lymed
09/02/09

@Eriu: A girl would never use performance enhancing drugs. It's just not feminine.
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