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If They Can't Take Your Right To An Abortion, They'll Take Somebody's Right To A Marriage

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Feminist Whore
11/12/08

In reply to If They Can't Take Your Right To An Abortion, They'll Take Somebody's Right To A Marriage
I made a wrong turn earlier, and somehow I ended up on the Chick Tract website. I feel kinda dizzy still, that sight is so hilarious at the same time so horrifying.

So I poked around the 'Battle Cry' section where they had this gem:
"Homosexual Marriage? - What's the Big Deal?"

I'll summarize it for you:

If teh gays are allowed to get married, we might have to stop being complete shithead assholes to them. Let us keep being shithead assholes, say no to gay marriage!
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Feminist Whore
11/12/08

@alphafemale: forgot the link! [www.chick.com]
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tonightineed is actually Mrs. Ziegler-Spock
11/12/08

@alphafemale: You know, for as often as I hear this argument - OMG NOES WE ARE DISCRIMINATED HOW SAAAAD - it still makes me just as sick and angry every time.

How do people get off completely IGNORING THE OBVIOUS DISCRIMINATION AND HATRED HERE?
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Sunflowercat
11/11/08

In reply to If They Can't Take Your Right To An Abortion, They'll Take Somebody's Right To A Marriage
I sometimes think the right-wing fundamentalists of today are reincarnations of the people who used to use the Bible to justify slavery.
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tonightineed is actually Mrs. Ziegler-Spock
11/11/08

In reply to If They Can't Take Your Right To An Abortion, They'll Take Somebody's Right To A Marriage
Speaking to my mother tonight, she said she wouldn't watch the Keith O thing on Prop 8 because he's a hatemonger, and then this gem came out:

Me: Well, you don't think porn should be illegal, do you? Just because you don't like it?

Her: Yes, I think it should be illegal!

Me: Doesn't that impinge on free speech?

Her: Maybe. I don't care.

I came from this woman. How.
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LipstickLibrarian
11/11/08

@tonightineed thinks rahm is nom: His statement is about as far from "hatemongering" as you can possibly get.

After seeing it, I kind of wished I could force the naysayers and haters to watch it, Clockwork Orange-style if need be.
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Sunflowercat
11/11/08

In reply to If They Can't Take Your Right To An Abortion, They'll Take Somebody's Right To A Marriage
The horrifying thing is there are plenty of states where that ridiculous personhood amendment would pass. Like mine. In SC the whackjobs have so out-mobilized everyone else, it would probably pass a law stating a woman's uterus is the property of any man within a 100-foot radius of her.
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GoldenRatioφ (aka -girl11)
11/11/08

In reply to If They Can't Take Your Right To An Abortion, They'll Take Somebody's Right To A Marriage
Yeah the thing I don't get though is with abortion, there is the possibility that there is some gray area because I don't think we can say definitively when life begins (tho conception is certainly not the best candidate!). At least there is some middle ground for discussion as to how late-term abortions should be handled.

But with the gay marriage thing, there are absolutely no gray areas, there are no possible logical arguments against it. It's just even more nonsensical than any anti-choice argument ever has been. Ack.
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LipstickLibrarian
11/11/08

@goldengirl11: There is no middle ground with abortion.

If Science announced tomorrow that life begins at four weeks, women should still have the choice to carry that child, or not.
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NefariousNewt
11/11/08

In reply to If They Can't Take Your Right To An Abortion, They'll Take Somebody's Right To A Marriage
What I think most fundamentalist Christians don't realize is that they live in a plural society, and not everyone has the same belief system they do. So while they attempt to foist their own version of morality on the rest of us, they are failing to consider the repercussions if they cross certain boundaries.

They are taking it on the chin now over their abortion stance; they will take further hits from their homosexual hatred. As long as their moves are countered at ever turn, they will find themselves spinning their wheels. Prop 8 was a wake-up call, but by no means was it a blanket condemnation, for 48% of Californians did vote against it. There's no way the forces for reason and sanity can't close that gap with an all-out assault on everything than makes the fundamentalist argument akin to Nazism.
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Brigit
11/11/08

In reply to If They Can't Take Your Right To An Abortion, They'll Take Somebody's Right To A Marriage
Also, am I the only one that thinks of the "keep your jesus of my penis" video every time the anti-womanity/gayanity brigade says something stupid?
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UnSeelie...I am baaack!
11/11/08

@Brigit: Never seen it, but thanks to you now I have. Bless you child, great video.
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Brigit
11/11/08

@Brigit:
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tonightineed is actually Mrs. Ziegler-Spock
11/11/08

In reply to If They Can't Take Your Right To An Abortion, They'll Take Somebody's Right To A Marriage
I'm going to wait a few days and post the Keith Olbermann video on my facebook to see how those around me respond to it. Most of them are of the belief that if gay people would just try harder they could be straight (though I'm thankful to say that my mother is not one of them in this specific aspect, one of the few graces in my life) and are just about a half-step away from "Leviticus says stone the gays!"

Everybody: hands outta mah uterus.
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TheFormerJuneBronson
11/11/08

In reply to If They Can't Take Your Right To An Abortion, They'll Take Somebody's Right To A Marriage
Not. an improvement.
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JLady
11/12/08

@TheFormerJuneBronson: More like a smoke screen if you ask me.
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checkyaself
11/11/08

In reply to If They Can't Take Your Right To An Abortion, They'll Take Somebody's Right To A Marriage
I know this is very politically incorrect but I'd rather have the Christian fundamentalists recognize abortions as something that is unfortunate but necessary and keep it legal than try to have them recognize gay marriage something that is necessary because not being able to get married never killed anyone but back alley abortions have.

I know my view is one sided because I'm a straight female but this is just they way I feel. I know (or hope) one day we will be able to have the two and neither will be an issue but right now one is just more important to me than the other.
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Kilotwat
11/11/08

@checkyaself: It's not a binary choice. We can and should have both. Why are you letting Christians dictate the terms to you?
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Her Grace
11/12/08

@checkyaself: Gay suicides: not killing anyone since 2008!

So I guess I'm just fucked, then, right? As a bisexual woman I would like access to abortion if necessary and access to marry whomever I damned well please, especially my long-term girlfriend.
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UnSeelie...I am baaack!
11/11/08

In reply to If They Can't Take Your Right To An Abortion, They'll Take Somebody's Right To A Marriage
Why do people come up with such extremes? The scare tactics used are so ridiculous that it really freaking shocks me how many people believe that shit. I asked a lot of people why they voted yes on 8 and all of them were so uninformed, the believed the hype about it being taught in schools and the hype about it being forced on churches or that they were only doing it for the benefits (benefits: insurance, taxes, etc), and all i could do was walk away cause my other option was to bitch slap them. I am not good with people who don't care to become more informed.

In other news I am glad President Elect Barack Obama is going to have more sex education in schools.
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whats_in_a_name
11/11/08

@UnSeelie...: But clearly churches will be forced to perform gay marriages just like they're forced to marry any straight couple that walks in the door. Oh what's that you say churches can refuse to marry anybody they want to for any reason they want to?
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UnSeelie...I am baaack!
11/11/08

@whats_in_a_name: Exactly, Catholic churches do it all the time.
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Kilotwat
11/11/08

In reply to If They Can't Take Your Right To An Abortion, They'll Take Somebody's Right To A Marriage

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tonightineed is actually Mrs. Ziegler-Spock
11/11/08

@Kilotwat: ...I love me some bible slash, yes I do.
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Kilotwat
11/11/08

@tonightineed thinks rahm is nom: O RLY... well in that case...

Biblical crossover slash!
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tonightineed is actually Mrs. Ziegler-Spock
11/11/08

@Kilotwat: oh snap.

Jesus/Satan is so angsty hot.
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rptrcub
11/11/08

@Kilotwat: OMG that's hot.
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Kilotwat
11/11/08

Yes, that's Jesus X Pikachu.
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Dudezebel
11/11/08

@Kilotwat: I'm gay and Christian. I'm not scandalized by any of the images posted above, Jesus has bigger things to worry about.

At the same time they still don't sit right with me and I'm fairly moderate. Most Americans do believe in God and while being provocative for the sake of provocative most likely has some place in the modern discourse, doing so in the context of gay rights or abortion discussions, just makes bridging the gap between the sides all the more difficult.
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Kilotwat
11/11/08

@Dudezebel: It's not something I'd bring to the ecumenical council. But on a blog full of pervy feminists, hell yeah!
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Her Grace
11/12/08

@Dudezebel: A small majority does not equal most.
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hellosunshine
11/11/08

In reply to If They Can't Take Your Right To An Abortion, They'll Take Somebody's Right To A Marriage
OH FOR THE LOVE.

STAY OUT OF MY MARRIAGE. STAY OUT OF MY UTERUS. IF GAY MARRIAGE HAS SUCH A CRUMBLING EFFECT UPON YOUR OWN MARRIAGE AND FAITH, MAYBE THAT'S YOUR EFFING PROBLEM AND YOUR FAITH AND MARRIAGE AREN'T AS STRONG AS YOU THOUGHT.

Sorry for the caps, Hortense. I'm so freaking tired of all of this nonsense.
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Brigit
11/11/08

@hellodarling loves president obama!!!: Thank You for reading my mind. WTF?

Are they thinking that if their husband sees Juan and Pablo holding hands and being all married and stuff the husband is gonna go running begging to get his ass pounded? Maria and Jemma walking down the aisle makes wifey run and beg to gay-married to them?

It really does.not.compute.
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dancerevolution
11/11/08

In reply to If They Can't Take Your Right To An Abortion, They'll Take Somebody's Right To A Marriage
It seems like some liberals are okay with not letting gays marry though. I mean, even Obama and Joe have said they are not for gay marriage, just equal rights.
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Kilotwat
11/11/08

@dancerevolution: They're also against banning gay marriage after it's been legalized.
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Notes from the underwhelmed
11/11/08

@dancerevolution: Well, honestly- I don't think they're personally against it. I think what it is is that they are afraid of freaking out the Christians. Which sucks.
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info*ninja
11/11/08

@Notes from the underwhelmed: Well, just the fundies-Spain legalized gay marriage before they legalized common law and they are pretty Catholic.
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quatrevingtquatre
11/11/08

@dancerevolution:
I don't think marriage should be legislated, either way. I believe Gay people should have the same rights afforded to same sex couples, therefore I support civil unions.

But I think the issues of marriage is one better dealt with in churches. If there are churches that decide to let same-sex couples marry, that's awesome, but the decision to have an actual marriage ceremony should be left up to the individual churches.
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dancerevolution
11/11/08

@thatonegirlsays:

I agree. This is one issue where small government would be great! Actually, I like the idea of small government. Don't listen to my phone calls, don't bailout big corporate banks with my money, don't tell me what to do with my body, don't tell my friends they can't get married. Liberals are the new conservatives, ya'll.
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Dancingfrog
11/11/08

@Notes from the underwhelmed: *sigh* Hundreds of millions of Christians are on board with women's rights and allowing homosexuals to enjoy the same rights as everyone else. It's not Christians as a whole who are the problem. It's the extremists who are.

Extremists exist all over the place - from Christian extremists to pro-choice extremists who believe it's fine to abort a pregancy at 9 months and pro-gay rights people who think that those voted against Prop 8 need to die. Maybe if we sent the extremists to a time-shifting, space-shifting island, and let the rest of be in peace, North America would be a much better place. Except then they'd have Sawyer and we wouldn't. Nix that plan.
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SarahMC
11/11/08

@thatonegirlsays: Our government already IS involved in marriage; the states give out marriage licenses. As long as they're in the marriage business, they must not discriminate based on sexual orientation. We actually don't give a damm whether individual churches want to recognize gay marriages, because their recognition doesn't mean shit as far as legal benefits go.
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SarahMC
11/11/08

@SarahMC: And now I realize that perhaps we are already in agreement, because I don't think the government SHOULD be in the marriage business in the first place.
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SarahMC
11/11/08

@Dancingfrog: "pro-choice extremists who believe it's fine to abort a pregancy at 9 months and pro-gay rights people who think that those voted against Prop 8 need to die."

What a ridiculous couple of strawmen.
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NefariousNewt
11/11/08

@SarahMC: They won't give up that cash cow. As a matter of fact, expect many municipalities and states to increase the price of a marriage license to plug budget gaps.
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Vodnik
11/11/08

@thatonegirlsays: I have an alternative idea. Instead of investing a major amount of time and effort recreating the institution of "state" marriage and calling it "civil union," we just maintain the "state" marriage, make it available to all consenting adults who want legal reinforcement for their pair-bond, and the churches can stop pretending they ever had an exclusive claim on the concept of marriage, and instead create a new institution to replace the "church" marriage, and that new institution can be exclusively theirs. They could call it "narriage," for all I care.

There are several major advantages to this idea, the foremost being that it doesn't require reams of legislation (including tax codes et al.) to be rewritten, substituting "civil union" for marriage throughout. Moreover, it satisfies people like me, who chose to be married (rather than merely "civilly united") and didn't feel they needed the imprimatur of some private organization for which they have no use the rest of the time.
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CrazyJer
11/11/08

@Dancingfrog: Are you kidding me? I work at a pro-choice organization. I'm surrounded by "pro-choice extremists" all day long... not one of us thinks it's okay to abort a baby at 9 months. Such a procedure does not exist. Read a book.

Or maybe you're being sarcastic and I don't get it. In that case, fooey on you.
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Dancingfrog
11/12/08

@SarahMC: See, here, that's a problem. There are extremists on every side, but instead of facing that fact, you're calling them strawmen.

@CrazyJer: No, actually, I wasn't being sarcastic. There are extremists who want to expand the right to abort to full term pregnancies. In fact, it's legal in some countries, and often encouraged in with female fetuses (although I guess some could argue that "aborting" at 8 1/2 months is better than infanticide). It's sadly not uncommon, it's just outside the Western world bubble.

Thanks, however, for assuming that a) I don't read and b) I'm some wingnut who believes that pro-choicers are extremists. I do read, and I happen to think that anti-choicers are usually wingnuts.

As for extremists, well, there are people posting what could be considered rather graphic slash pics, which wrongly seem to assume that a)Christians don't post at Jezebel b) all Christians are against homosexuals and c) all Christians are anti-choice. That's not the case. Do some people really think that to be "progressive" one must be offensive and deny, rather than confront, extremists in their own camp.?
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SarahMC
11/12/08

@Dancingfrog: Your false equivalency IS a strawman. On one side you have folks who are ACTUALLY proposing legislation that completely limits women's reproductive freedom, and marriage rights for gays, and on the other "extreme" you have pro-choicers who REALLY believe in... choice, and gay marriage supporters who "think people who voted for Prop 8 should die." LOL
That's the best you could do? Yeah, I think women should have abortion rights for the duration of their pregnancies. Late-term abortions happen for a reason. Outlawing it does not solve the underlying problems women face. And there are time restrictions in place in the USA, you know.
As far as sex selective abortion goes, that is a SYMPTOM of a disease called misogyny. That boys are valued over girls is the problem; if girls were considered equal, sex selective abortion would not be a problem. Outlawing sex selective abortion does nothing to help baby girls OR adult women.

And your example of pro-gay "extremists" is ridiculous on it's face. I didn't realize there were groups out there, lobbying for the right to kill anti-gay people. It's not extreme to be angry re: your second-class citizenship.
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Her Grace
11/12/08

@Vodnik: But that would be sensible! Accepting that marriage is a cultural tradition, and that even those who are not religious have a shared larger culture of marriage (not 'civil union's) as the basis of a monogamous, permanent relationship are due the same respect by the state as those who do have a religion backing them up.
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info*ninja
11/11/08

In reply to If They Can't Take Your Right To An Abortion, They'll Take Somebody's Right To A Marriage
This makes zero sense, the best way to decrease abortions is to have MORE Gays
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
11/11/08

@info*ninja: Right?!?! If they're not going to provide decent sex education, you could at least recognize that gay sex has never resulted in a pregnancy ....
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OodlesofNoodles
11/11/08

@info*ninja: Yeah, but remember: gay marriage is what wiped out the dinosaurs!
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info*ninja
11/11/08

@OodlesofNoodles: I thought that was masturbation...
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whats_in_a_name
11/11/08

@info*ninja: maybe it was gay masturbation, that's like twice as sinful gayness and touching oneself.
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info*ninja
11/11/08

@whats_in_a_name gay masturbation is the best way to avoid abortions! Plus those dinos were so dirty
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whats_in_a_name
11/11/08

@info*ninja: Thinking about it now, wouldn't all masturbation be gay since it's yourself diddling yourself, it's definitely same sex.
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