Any other Jezebels run yesterday? (I did.) Anyone else get chills on 1st Ave with all those screaming people? Anyone else feel like the last couple of miles were measured inaccurately because they sure felt a hell of a lot longer than all the other ones? #nycmarathon
@evilqueenmagda: Me! First Ave was crazy, especially in contrast to the dead silence as you're going up the Queensboro. Hearing the screams from the distance was got me...man.
Also, mile 23 is evil. For all the talk about what a brutal course Boston is, NY seemed harder to me from a tactical aspect. Stealth hills are tougher than obvious ones. #nycmarathon
I'm really confused about the Santhi Soundarajan case. If she is insensitive to testosterone how would she have a demonstrable advantage over other women? Is the Y a chromosomal advantage on it's own that would make her naturally better at running than her female competitors? Furthermore why is a genetic advantage in a woman unfair while a genetic advantage in a man (I say Michael Phelps must have some fish DNA, test him for that!) is accepted? Aren't all athletes genetically advantaged over regular human beings? Let's stop them from competing because it's unfair to us normal humans who will never be able to run/swim that fast or jump that high!
THis is so infuriating. There is no chance that these same women would be tested if they weren't as good as they are, so it really has nothing to do with their supposed 'manly' looks. It has to do completely with them being considered too good to be women.
Therefore, in response, I demand a genetic test of Usain Bolt to prove he doesn't have ladyparts. I chose to believe his awesomeness is because he's a girl. Michael Phelps, too.
@JerkoftheMonth: that makes no sense, though. Men outperform women uniformly in these events, and so a woman pretending to be a man would be handicapping themselves in terms of competition.
Moreover, of course this is about performance, not appearance. Why should the other competitors care if a male-looking "female" is competiting but failing? You only care about people cheating when they win, for the same reason. If they're losing, they're not hurting anyone.
I guess this answers my question from last week's thread about how sports officials handle athletes with hormonal or genetic variations in sex. Ridiculous.
Santhi Soundarajan sounds like an amazing woman, and I'm really glad that she's doing something positive for future runners.
@DutchessOfDork: It's like Robin Williams' bit about how only having one testicle makes Lance Armstrong more aerodynamic, only not funny. So really, it's actually exactly the same.
I think this is difficult, though, because there isn't some universal medical definition of gender (apparently chromosomes aren't enough) but sports are divided very much into two camps that have only old-fashioned views of gender used as definitions. We know it's unwise to lump all humans together into one competition, but is it really feasible (and, ultimately, just going to marginalize intersex people) to have an "other" group of competitors? So, really, if we're going to try to fit the square gendered pegs of the world into one of two gender "holes," there needs to be an honest and candid conversation about what male and female mean in the athletic world. Automatically stripping someone of their accomplishments if they turn out to be intersex is obviously unhelpful, but so is a) blasting the fact that gender testing is done at all and b) having a knee-jerk reaction any time anyone IS ousted because of intersex issues. There will be zero motivation to create clear guidelines if, when someone doesn't pass those guidelines against their self-identity (because it just cannot be only based on self-identity), there is a moral outrage.
@schweppes: I very much agree that it's a more complicated issue than most posters are making it. The race officials, at least in Semenya's case, have made it clear that simply being intersex isn't cause for elimination. You have to have a condition that provides you with a genetic advantage based on your sex. A lot of people seem to be calling for an end to that, and letting anyone who is intersex but identifies as a woman compete in the women's division. But what happens if we do that? Well, coaches will start sex testing early on, and refuse to coach most, if not all, of the females that come to them in favor of coaching runners with genetically advantageous intersex conditions. Given identical training, those with advantageous intersex conditions would beat out females in all but the very, very rarest of cases . . . so why even bother training females, then?
I don't see that as an ideal solution, either. And to be honest, I can't really think of a solution that doesn't put somebody at an unfair advantage.
From the article by Mary Buckheit, which says it better than I can:
"But like so many other female athletes, her athletic prowess and physical appearance have triggered a barrage of personal questions that male athletes don't have to deal with.
Shaquille O'Neal is a veritable giant, genetically unlike almost any man we know, but we don't ask if he's human. Instead, we call him an athletic freak. A superman. Michael Phelps' torso-to-leg proportions, combined with his large paddle-like hands, make him a marine machine. Yet we call it a gift, not a laughable genetic blunder. Jockeys with 27-inch waists and small shoulders might lack the physical stature we've come to expect of men. Still, we don't call them womanly. We deem them built to race horses.
There's an undeniable double standard at work in sports. As long as women have competed (and as long as evolving attire has allowed us to see their bodies), people have depreciated and humiliated some of the best female athletes by calling them manly. Their enigmatic strength and athleticism is countered with derisive criticism and gender judgments. Society wants women to be toned, not muscular. That's weird. It hopes women are athletic, but not too competitive.
[...] What if we assume Semenya is telling the truth? (As we should.) What if she is just an 18-year-old South African woman? What if she's not a cheater? What if she's not on the juice? What if she's just a remarkable athlete?
There are so many things to consider in these sensitive situations. The first is that we're not asking someone to prove that his or her urine and blood are clean. We're asking someone -- today, a South African teenager -- to justify what we've been conditioned to consider male or masculine. We're asking her for an alibi for her inexplicable athleticism."
This is absurd. AIS doesn't make you a man! She is a woman, and I think it's unfair for her to be banned from competing because of a y chromosome that does nothing. Is she suppose to run as a man when she lives as a woman? That's insulting.
Good lord, that is beyond ridiculous. I am so damn sick of this gender essentialism; if Soundajaran has androgen insensitivity, that means that she is actually *insensitive to testosterone*! She probably has less reaction to it than I do! But because she's got a Y chromosome, she's suddenly not a woman? And then you get this wide-eyed sensationalism with prurient reports about something that could destroy everything these young women have worked for.
Ok, here's what I still don't understand about either case: They were "suspicious she was using performance enhancing drugs." Why, then, did they ask them to undergo sex testing? Even if the test detects both gender and drugs, I don't understand why people are acting as though "We think you're using steroids" and "We think you're a man" are one and the same, or interchangeable.
I lived with female roommates for years and never saw them naked or in the shower. Do these women have some kind of communal locker-room type shower in Berlin? This comment is disgusting. That coach must also believe that every night, the ladies have a pillow fight in their underwear and then practice kissing on each other.
@1.1.1.: And even LESS self-conscious outside the US. There is a big difference between the way women and girls change in US locker rooms and the way they do elsewhere in the world. I've been in both places and the difference is almost comical.
this is so upsetting! she's done us (south africans) so proud, and is getting zero press for her amazing achievements! i am irritated as all hell about this -for someone to come out of rural south africa and make it this far is a serious feat, and we should really be supporting her!!! i'm very unimpressed with the south african press on this matter. the ONLY thing i've heard is some idiot dj on a youth radio station making light about this 'she looks like a man' debacle.... *annoyed*
11/02/09
11/02/09
Also, mile 23 is evil. For all the talk about what a brutal course Boston is, NY seemed harder to me from a tactical aspect. Stealth hills are tougher than obvious ones. #nycmarathon
11/02/09
But yeah. The silence on the bridge only emphasized the sound of thousands of pounding feet. #nycmarathon
09/02/09
09/02/09
Therefore, in response, I demand a genetic test of Usain Bolt to prove he doesn't have ladyparts. I chose to believe his awesomeness is because he's a girl. Michael Phelps, too.
09/02/09
Moreover, of course this is about performance, not appearance. Why should the other competitors care if a male-looking "female" is competiting but failing? You only care about people cheating when they win, for the same reason. If they're losing, they're not hurting anyone.
09/02/09
Santhi Soundarajan sounds like an amazing woman, and I'm really glad that she's doing something positive for future runners.
09/02/09
09/02/09
09/02/09
09/02/09
[sportales.com]
09/02/09
09/02/09
I don't see that as an ideal solution, either. And to be honest, I can't really think of a solution that doesn't put somebody at an unfair advantage.
09/02/09
09/02/09
Here's an awesome commentary on Caster Semenya: [sports.espn.go.com]
From the article by Mary Buckheit, which says it better than I can:
"But like so many other female athletes, her athletic prowess and physical appearance have triggered a barrage of personal questions that male athletes don't have to deal with.
Shaquille O'Neal is a veritable giant, genetically unlike almost any man we know, but we don't ask if he's human. Instead, we call him an athletic freak. A superman. Michael Phelps' torso-to-leg proportions, combined with his large paddle-like hands, make him a marine machine. Yet we call it a gift, not a laughable genetic blunder. Jockeys with 27-inch waists and small shoulders might lack the physical stature we've come to expect of men. Still, we don't call them womanly. We deem them built to race horses.
There's an undeniable double standard at work in sports. As long as women have competed (and as long as evolving attire has allowed us to see their bodies), people have depreciated and humiliated some of the best female athletes by calling them manly. Their enigmatic strength and athleticism is countered with derisive criticism and gender judgments. Society wants women to be toned, not muscular. That's weird. It hopes women are athletic, but not too competitive.
[...] What if we assume Semenya is telling the truth? (As we should.) What if she is just an 18-year-old South African woman? What if she's not a cheater? What if she's not on the juice? What if she's just a remarkable athlete?
There are so many things to consider in these sensitive situations. The first is that we're not asking someone to prove that his or her urine and blood are clean. We're asking someone -- today, a South African teenager -- to justify what we've been conditioned to consider male or masculine. We're asking her for an alibi for her inexplicable athleticism."
09/02/09
09/02/09
09/02/09
09/02/09
09/02/09
08/19/09
08/20/09
They are athletes. In my experience, athletes tend to be less self-conscious.
08/25/09
08/19/09
08/19/09
08/19/09
08/19/09
08/19/09