When I worked at the Union Square B&N in NYC a few years ago, we got a regular customer in once or twice a week for a few months -- long hair, red shirt. He would go to the self-help/relationships section and start conversations with the female employees that quickly turned into anti-women rants ("Let me ask you a question. What are you supposed to do when a woman doesn't trust you? Why do so many women get crazy in a relationship? And most of the time it's THEM that are cheating!" etc.) I can't convey it in print, but this guy was SCARY. Rage and hatred of women RADIATED off him. It got to the point where the male employees would try to head him off from talking to the female employees because it was so upsetting. But even that was hard for them, because he'd try to draw them into conversations about how women are scheming, horrible sluts who won't just be honest, sweet girlfriends.
(That's one thing that sucks for women working retail -- you're not supposed to be anything but friendly to customers, so you can't tell a creepy customer to fuck off without risking your job.)
I remember one day he came up to me and starting RANTING about how a girl on another floor was dressed: it was so revealing, he said, that he couldn't be blamed if he took her for a prostitute, and she shouldn't dress that way in front of the kids in the store. He was in a rage.
We were all sure he was capable of violence against women, but there was nothing concrete to report to the police or anyone else. I still wonder and worry about where he is sometimes.
Attention Douche Wads:
You are not a "nice guy" or a "great catch" or "high quality". You aren't. If you have the attitude that women are trophies to be shown off to other men, you are not a "nice guy". If your personal hygiene is comparable to that of goat, women will avoid you. If you refuse to remove your ass from your couch & work out and your diet largely consists of fast food, don't expect the hard-body athlete to fall head over heels in love with you. If you are over 50 years old and are not Donald Trump, don't expect that hot 18-19 year old co-ed to fall all over you. In fact, even if you are Donald Trump, date somebody your own age douche bag. If you refer to a woman who won't date you as a 1.) a slut 2.) a dyke 3.) butterface 4.) uptight bitch, no other woman is going to want you either! If you limit yourself to only dating super models, guess what! You're never going to date, have sex, marry, and you'll be spending a lot of time alone. Especially if you don't look like the centerfold of Play Girl yourself.
You are not entitled to pussy. Not getting pussy will not ruin your life. When women don't get cock we purchase a battery powered substitute until our dry spell ends. We don't go on a temper tantrum killing spree. You don't need to either.
Thank You.
@My_Latest_Incarnation: I got talking to a guy one time who absolutely hated himself. He was overweight, "old" (in his thirties), and had never had a girlfriend. I was having a conversation with him and didn't care what he looked like. I wasn't interested in him sexually, but I wasn't opposed to him on general principle. This poor guy had never had an attractive girl give him the time of day before (that he knew of - I suspect he was just so wrapped up in self-loathing, he wouldn't have noticed it unless someone beat him over the head with kindness).
Anyway, he asked me if I would walk out on the street with him one time, just so people would see him with a pretty girl. I asked him if he had any idea how insulting that was. He was gobsmacked. He had NO idea that would offend me. He was so wrapped up in his own misery, he was oblivious. When I explained that I was a hell of a lot more than just my looks, and he of all people should get that being stereotyped based only on your looks is offensive, he was shocked. He got it, but it was such a mindfuck for him. That I would be offended he LIKED my body and thought it was attractive and wanted to show me off like a trophy was truly a revelation.
But he got it. What I'm saying is yes, we have every right to be pissed off about this. It IS offensive. It IS insulting. It ISN'T okay. But a lot of these guys really, truly, fundamentally don't get it. And being hateful toward them isn't going to get that message across - just solidify the wrongheaded thinking they've already got.
@alexawesome: That's an interesting example. Many of the comments here point out the obvious--this guy had violent sexist tendencies that fueled his desire to kill people. But now what? What to do knowing what we know now? What can we do to protect ourselves, while raising our sons and daughters, our lovers, our brothers and sisters, our friends, from keeping this from happening again. And step one is doing exactly what you did. Thanks.
@Trulymadlyme: And please don't misunderstand me, I'm talking about that particular example, not the man who committed this crime. I don't know if anything anyone might have done would have prevented this outcome. I firmly believe, based on his blog excerpts that this guy was messed up. I'm talking about the other guys, the guys who irritate us, not the ones who go way beyond annoying into dangerous and scary.
"It's worth noting that Sodini's diary also includes some racist ramblings ("Black dudes have thier choice of best white hoez"), but both his racism and his sexism are heavily overlaid with insanity and despair."
Isn't that how it often is? A particularly sticky intersection of oppression. How to help the mentally ill when sometimes they want to kill you? Honest question.
Damn. Sodini and Roissy are two creepy peas in a pod. While Roissy is not a murderer they both harbor the same creepy view of women as an other to be conquered and seen as a trophy and an affirmation of their potency. Gross. Perhaps if Sodini had seen women, all women not just "desirable" women, as human beings, he would have found someone to share his life with.
And I don't understand Roissy at all. He seems to despise women.
The thoughts expressed by both Roissy and the murderer resonate with the themes conveyed in mainstream (hetero) pornography. I do think there is a link. I think the common denominator is hatred towards women -- either as the motivator for watching body-punishing porn, or the result of watching it. For most, I think it is also becoming the source of pleasure...
The messages in mainstream porn are the same as shooting up a bunch of sweaty women.
The best thing to do is to get involved with some way of open-heartedly helping others. Go visit old people in a hospital, people who have nothing. Develop some purpose in your life. If you start reaching out of yourself you will start to build character. Too much emphasis right now is on being ironic and distant. One key to relief from that crushing loneliness is make other people happy.
I don't know if this this has been mentioned or not (the comments took forever to load) but no one go read the blog of the asshole who left that comment on the post featured in the article.
His entire blog is basically about how much he hates women. He wrote a post called "Rape is Equality". Yeah. I wanted to vom.
cwisto moweina has got yer goat promoted this comment
Edited by little_librarian at 08/05/09 4:13 PM
little_librarian was starred
little_librarian was unstarred
@little_librarian: no, it hasn't been mentioned. I went there too and was thinking about warning people as well, but thought against it because usually that leads to more people going to the link.
I wanted to cry when I read it, especially because he has arguments that appear well-thought out, even citing seemingly academic sources; he's not just ranting and raving. I mean, in over 20 comments on that post, no one called him out on his psychotic view of women. I've only been able to regain my sanity by hoping that guys like that are in the very slim minority.
Edited by cwisto moweina has got yer goat at 08/05/09 4:21 PM
cwisto moweina has got yer goat was starred
cwisto moweina has got yer goat was unstarred
@little_librarian: I wish I had read this before I just spent twenty minutes searching through his site to find some sort of sense of what was going on. Terrifyingly there were people, some being women, who seemed to understand where he was coming from. Not sure if Norway is going through some torturing of men as political action, as he seems to believe, but its crazy to see that out there.
Not to be flippant but this guy just reminds me terribly of this demotivator: [images.despair.com] Seriously. When tons of stuff is going wrong in MY life I see what I can maybe change about myself! Sometimes it doesn't help, but sometimes there are external factors. Thirty MILLION attractive single women, unless that's some kind of exaggeration, well, maybe they know something you don't, dude.
@redqueenmeg: Right? No one will give you the time of day 0 MAYBE you're doing somehting worng!
Forgive the typos, but I have no patience for the DEATHLY SLOW commenting.
This story has me freaking out. I probably shouldn't be reading triggering stuff right now since I just recently came out of a 20 year memory blackout about a sexual assault that happened to me three days after I started college. I was sleeping in my dorm (overadmittance at the college meant that I was in a tiny room with two other roomates.) My female roommates came in in the wee hours of the night with their two thuggish football player boyfriends, the guys pulled my mattress off the bed and got physical with me while the girls (drunk of course) laughed and egged them on. I tried to report the incident to the student advisor on the dorm floor, was told not to make a fuss, never told the police under pressure from the school, and quickly transferred to another college. At the time I kept telling myself it was because I was just depressed at that school and needed to be with some friends I knew at a different college. I totally repressed what really happened, never got counselling, and a few years later had a breakdown without understanding that it was likely due to the aftermath of the unreported assault. A month after I left the first school the head of my drama department (I was a theater major) sent me a letter scolding me for my lack of professionalism, dedication, and scholastic acumen. Guess since nobody let me report the assault, it was buried and he didn't even know. But talk about rubbing salt in the wound. For years I let myself feel like a failure because of what my department head wrote to me after I left his lousy school. Yuck. What a mess. In my case, as I go back and reread my journals and keep processing the recall of the events as they come back, I'm astonished at the different forces which conspired to keep me ashamed, inert, and quiet about what happened. From the student who was in charge of our floor of the dorm (a female), to administration (I did briefly talk to someone supposedly from school security and they told me to shut up, basically.) Other commenters have talked about how we women smile, try to appear harmless, to avoid attack from men, or we go the other way and try to look tough and bitchy to avoid being approached. I've been a smiller - that's always been my defense. But behind the smile is a lot of pain, and it sucks that women are never, ever safe - and that people we thought had our backs (like roommates, school security, etc) can frequently become oppressors. Makes me second guess everything I do and have done as these memories surface . I'm not eager to go to the gym again given the fact that I KNOW creepy guys there like this killer in the news story. You can sense it from some of them. Yuck.
Sad little man. You caused so much pain, and what has it achieved for you?
It wasn't your cologne. No one would date you because women can smell "crazy." You can't cover that shit up with a little Axe, you know.
Thanks, Anna, for a poignant analysis.
For some reason, reading this guys journal makes me want to work on myself, to not be so angry when I see beautiful women, I don't want to be angry when I'm in my 40's like this guy was. I mean, I've spent most of my 20's angry at beautiful women, angry because the men I have loved have gone for them without even looking inside me.
@deadmallsanita: but that's the sad part. the sad part is that this guy's idea of what a desirable woman was had been locked into his head since he was 12 years old. there are MANY men who are exactly like this - would rather be alone than be in a relationship with someone who doesn't meet their attractiveness standards. and honestly, THAT is fucked up.
@rednrowdy:
I agree that its sad, and currently I am having my own battle with loving a male friend of mine for four years. He likes the little house on the prairie type, long blond hair, homely looks, skinny as a rail. Me? I'm 300 pounds, I have sometimes red sometimes black hair, and I wear glasses and I have catapillar eyebrows.
I tried convincing him that what is in the inside is what counts, and that we would make a great couple. He couldn't get past my weight.
@deadmallsanita: And yet you (and society) do not think this situation justifies your shooting up a gym full of men. No one thinks it's ok for women to become dangerously enraged if men reject them, yet the other way around is somehow more understandable and acceptable. What a weird world.
"Allegheny County police superintendent says Sodini "did what he set out to do, and I think nobody could have stopped him."
The main problem, IMO, is not this ghastly guy, or his ghastly act, or even Roissy.
The main problem is that attitude right there.
Now the issue of which was the causal contributor to the other two, I will leave to Jezzies wiser than I.
This thread running from psychotic murderer through the PUA/Game community is starting to make my stomach turn a bit.
Something I've been meaning to ask, though:
1) Do these guys really think that modern feminism is to blame for their social awkwardness? Have they never read a Jane Austen novel? Or, for that matter, any other novel written pre-1900 with socially awkward male characters?
2) So, if modern feminism didn't create socially awkward men (or women), then the only thing it *may* actually be responsible for in this equation is women having more choice: to marry later, have sex (or *not* have sex). Basically, women are no longer property. You cannot rape them. You cannot force them to marry.
.... These guys talk about it like this is a bad thing. This makes me shudder.
I posted a personal ad on craigslist specifically asking for guys who didn't have chips on their shoulders. Guess what kind of responses I got? At least half a dozen angry e-mails from guys who had problems with women. They ranged from slightly bitter and oversharing to absolutely frothing with rage not only for women but for me specifically, a nice girl who likes to listen to Prince and watch old movies.
This mindset is more common that I'd like to contemplate and it's so fucking dangerous. These nice guys can coast on good manners a date or two, but when they lose it, who knows what they'll do? And then women are blamed because we're not being nice enough to violent, mentally disturbed men. As a woman, I won't be held hostage to the whims of madmen, and I don't think Roissy would, either.
08/06/09
(That's one thing that sucks for women working retail -- you're not supposed to be anything but friendly to customers, so you can't tell a creepy customer to fuck off without risking your job.)
I remember one day he came up to me and starting RANTING about how a girl on another floor was dressed: it was so revealing, he said, that he couldn't be blamed if he took her for a prostitute, and she shouldn't dress that way in front of the kids in the store. He was in a rage.
We were all sure he was capable of violence against women, but there was nothing concrete to report to the police or anyone else. I still wonder and worry about where he is sometimes.
08/06/09
You are not a "nice guy" or a "great catch" or "high quality". You aren't. If you have the attitude that women are trophies to be shown off to other men, you are not a "nice guy". If your personal hygiene is comparable to that of goat, women will avoid you. If you refuse to remove your ass from your couch & work out and your diet largely consists of fast food, don't expect the hard-body athlete to fall head over heels in love with you. If you are over 50 years old and are not Donald Trump, don't expect that hot 18-19 year old co-ed to fall all over you. In fact, even if you are Donald Trump, date somebody your own age douche bag. If you refer to a woman who won't date you as a 1.) a slut 2.) a dyke 3.) butterface 4.) uptight bitch, no other woman is going to want you either! If you limit yourself to only dating super models, guess what! You're never going to date, have sex, marry, and you'll be spending a lot of time alone. Especially if you don't look like the centerfold of Play Girl yourself.
You are not entitled to pussy. Not getting pussy will not ruin your life. When women don't get cock we purchase a battery powered substitute until our dry spell ends. We don't go on a temper tantrum killing spree. You don't need to either.
Thank You.
08/06/09
Anyway, he asked me if I would walk out on the street with him one time, just so people would see him with a pretty girl. I asked him if he had any idea how insulting that was. He was gobsmacked. He had NO idea that would offend me. He was so wrapped up in his own misery, he was oblivious. When I explained that I was a hell of a lot more than just my looks, and he of all people should get that being stereotyped based only on your looks is offensive, he was shocked. He got it, but it was such a mindfuck for him. That I would be offended he LIKED my body and thought it was attractive and wanted to show me off like a trophy was truly a revelation.
But he got it. What I'm saying is yes, we have every right to be pissed off about this. It IS offensive. It IS insulting. It ISN'T okay. But a lot of these guys really, truly, fundamentally don't get it. And being hateful toward them isn't going to get that message across - just solidify the wrongheaded thinking they've already got.
08/06/09
08/06/09
08/05/09
Isn't that how it often is? A particularly sticky intersection of oppression. How to help the mentally ill when sometimes they want to kill you? Honest question.
08/05/09
And I don't understand Roissy at all. He seems to despise women.
08/05/09
The messages in mainstream porn are the same as shooting up a bunch of sweaty women.
08/05/09
08/05/09
His entire blog is basically about how much he hates women. He wrote a post called "Rape is Equality". Yeah. I wanted to vom.
08/05/09
I wanted to cry when I read it, especially because he has arguments that appear well-thought out, even citing seemingly academic sources; he's not just ranting and raving. I mean, in over 20 comments on that post, no one called him out on his psychotic view of women. I've only been able to regain my sanity by hoping that guys like that are in the very slim minority.
08/05/09
08/05/09
08/05/09
Forgive the typos, but I have no patience for the DEATHLY SLOW commenting.
08/05/09
08/05/09
It wasn't your cologne. No one would date you because women can smell "crazy." You can't cover that shit up with a little Axe, you know.
Thanks, Anna, for a poignant analysis.
08/05/09
08/05/09
08/05/09
I agree that its sad, and currently I am having my own battle with loving a male friend of mine for four years. He likes the little house on the prairie type, long blond hair, homely looks, skinny as a rail. Me? I'm 300 pounds, I have sometimes red sometimes black hair, and I wear glasses and I have catapillar eyebrows.
I tried convincing him that what is in the inside is what counts, and that we would make a great couple. He couldn't get past my weight.
08/05/09
08/05/09
The main problem, IMO, is not this ghastly guy, or his ghastly act, or even Roissy.
The main problem is that attitude right there.
Now the issue of which was the causal contributor to the other two, I will leave to Jezzies wiser than I.
08/05/09
08/05/09
Something I've been meaning to ask, though:
1) Do these guys really think that modern feminism is to blame for their social awkwardness? Have they never read a Jane Austen novel? Or, for that matter, any other novel written pre-1900 with socially awkward male characters?
2) So, if modern feminism didn't create socially awkward men (or women), then the only thing it *may* actually be responsible for in this equation is women having more choice: to marry later, have sex (or *not* have sex). Basically, women are no longer property. You cannot rape them. You cannot force them to marry.
.... These guys talk about it like this is a bad thing. This makes me shudder.
08/05/09
This mindset is more common that I'd like to contemplate and it's so fucking dangerous. These nice guys can coast on good manners a date or two, but when they lose it, who knows what they'll do? And then women are blamed because we're not being nice enough to violent, mentally disturbed men. As a woman, I won't be held hostage to the whims of madmen, and I don't think Roissy would, either.