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ImperfectLit.Woman
12/16/08

In reply to Dos And Don'ts
When I see and read articles like this about women's oppression in certain countries,I can't help but think of this quote I have heard from NCIS from Ducky the medical examiner-"women are only equal in death and nothing more." Sad but true.

I just wish people realized that Saudi Arabia's rules and restrictions on women are due to cultural reasons and NOT religious. Nowhere in the Quran does it allow blatant discriminations like this.

It's just men misreading and misconstruing certain verses and hadiths to further their own misogynistic, puritanical and hateful views. Nothing else.
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Haystacks
12/16/08

In reply to Dos And Don'ts
I assume they are allowed to die and be buried.
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ellaesther
12/16/08

@Haystacks: Sadly occasionally at the hands of their own family members.
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umamimama
12/16/08

In reply to Dos And Don'ts
A Pakistani blogger reports that the reported reason for the graveyard prohibition is "the dead can see you naked."

Maybe the reason women can't drive is that the dead are desperately trying to carjack a ride out of their Chippendale's-like cemeteries: all-male, all-nude, for all of eternity.
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RainbowBrite
12/16/08

@umamimama: HAHA The dead can see you naked. That is actually really hilarious!
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Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.
12/16/08

@umamimama: Bestie. TOTALLY!
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ellaesther
12/16/08

In reply to Dos And Don'ts
I just want to throw out there that the Islam practiced in Saudi is a particularly restrictive version (Wahabism), based in the harshest school of legal jurisprudence (Hanbali). The level of darkness that is perpetuated in the name of some twisted version of piety over there makes me ill (from the misogyny to the anti-Semitism, just to name two problems), but the Saudi version of Islam is really not representative of Islam as practiced by the majority of Muslims.

Just sayin'.
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stacyinbean
12/16/08

@ellaesther: So very very very true. And the scary part (to me anyway) is that we count them as one of our only 'friends' in the region.
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ellaesther
12/16/08

@stacyinbean: I know. The use of the word "moderate" makes my head implode. Apparently, in State Department speak, all "moderate" means is "will work with us without too much fuss."

Because according to my dictionary, the Saudis ain't moderate.
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stacyinbean
12/16/08

@ellaesther: Also - "has oil and is willing to share it." It's so frustrating.
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pmarble
12/16/08

@ellaesther: Your "just sayin" was very eloquent.
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Jack_Burton
12/16/08

@ellaesther: It's a very unusual relationship that they have w/ the West as well; The Saudi Royal Family invests quite a bit of money in the US, yet some members are so violently opposed to US and Israel that they print fundamentalist Quran and set up mosques all over the world preaching the destruction of the West.

There is overwhelming evidence that Osama Bin Laden is merely one of many Saudi Royals that ideologically and financially support the spread of restrictive Sharia law, and the Taliban.
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ellaesther
12/16/08

@pmarble: Thank you for sayin' so! (Now, I suppose you don't have a job for me?)
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pmarble
12/16/08

In reply to Dos And Don'ts
Reason number 4,762 to never go to Saudi Arabia. Ever.

And yes, yes, I know, I'm sure there's all sorts of lovely things about Saudi Arabia. I saw that No Reservations where Anthony Bourdain was shown around by a lovely lady who seemed really cool and didn't seem to mind being forced to wear a burka and sit in the "family" section of the Saudi version of KFC. I just have no interest in going to a place where woman are so completely subjugated to men. Ooh, I'm so mad now I have to go to the gym and work it off. I'd drive, but it's about 1 minute away from my loft. Which I own. Take THAT SA.
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stacyinbean
12/16/08

@pmarble: Fortunately for most of us, we likely wouldn't even be allowed in the country unless we were the guest of someone! Just one more thing to love about Saudi Arabia!
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taranwanderer
12/16/08

In reply to Dos And Don'ts
As someone who enjoys hanging out in cemeteries, the graveyard one is particularly distressing to me.

(Obviously it's not the worst, but still.)
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〇わ〜い〇
12/16/08

In reply to Dos And Don'ts
Women in Saudi Arabia also cannot attend mosque. Have you ever read Princess by Jean Sassoon? Very troubling--nothing but disappointment for women. Every day.

How are we supposed to respect their "rules"?
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stacyinbean
12/16/08

@vagtart: Great book, and the two that followed were good too. It's so hard to imagine being a woman over there and trying to change things to no avail.
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Jack_Burton
12/16/08

@vagtart: If women went to mosque, they might - gasp - learn how to become community organizers!
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Mafalda para Presidente
12/16/08

In reply to Dos And Don'ts
That's funny, because I am allowed to drive a car but I am not able to actually BUY one.

SNIFF.
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dirtybee
12/16/08

In reply to Dos And Don'ts
I was listening to NPR last night. Women protested back in 1990 against the driving law, and they paid the price for voicing their right. Fast forward to 18 years later, these women are still treated unfairly by those who remember them as protesters. Yet, one young woman was praised as a hero because she drove her extremely ill father to the hospital.

Hopefully, these barriers will come tumbling down soon, for their sake.
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morninggloria
12/16/08

In reply to Dos And Don'ts
What about if you cut out the floor of the car and run with it, Fred Flinstone style? Is that driving? How about if you have your kid hold the wheel while you Flinstone your way to the Jewel Osco? What if you visit a graveyard but your feet never touch the ground because you are on a pogo stick? Is graveyard pogo sticking allowed? How about riding around on a segway?
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BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit)
12/16/08

@morninggloria: I did read the pogo-stick clause in the Koran. Of course, I learned the Koran in clown college and wonder if Professor Bobo's interpretation might have been a little biased.
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rocknrollunicorn
12/16/08

@morninggloria: I love that you mentioned Jewel Osco. But I'm not sure if you're allowed to come up with such schemes, as a woman.
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badmutha
12/16/08

@morninggloria: I take visit to mean "break the plane of intersection with the real world and earth" so even if you did the pogo stick, you'd probably still get in trouble. The Fred Flintstone thing would totally be ok though. And it would get rid of any callouses you had, in the beginning.
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BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit)
12/16/08

In reply to Dos And Don'ts
Oh, rules for the wimmens. I love that we can dirt nap in the cemetery but not visit there.
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Kali Mama
12/16/08

@BrutallyHonestBabes: But you can get your dirty menses cooties all over the .... graves containing rotting corpses.
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rocknrollunicorn
12/16/08

In reply to Dos And Don'ts
The car thing is obviously awesome. I mean you buy a car and then someone has to drive you around! That someone being a hired woman or a male relative!

So even if you have a Geo, you get to feel rich and fancy.
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Mafalda para Presidente
12/16/08

@rocknrollunicorn: Well, all other wimmin's restrictions aside, I'd love to have someone to drive me around all the time. I just hate driving.
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SarahMC
12/16/08

@rocknrollunicorn: It sucks to be dependent on another person to drive you around. Trust.
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DangerMouse
12/16/08

@SarahMC: Well, if that's their only job, then they have to do it, no? I imagine having a chauffeur is different than asking my mom for a ride back in the day.
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SarahMC
12/16/08

@DangerMouse (was ejc....): I imagine it is, too. But why do you assume every woman can afford to pay a personal driver? Furthermore, why does it matter? Women should be permitted to drive whether some individual woman feels like taking advantage of that privilege or not.
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DangerMouse
12/16/08

@SarahMC: Oh, I was just thinking from Mafalda's perspective, not for all women everywhere.
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SarahMC
12/16/08

@DangerMouse (was ejc....): My bad.
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prestocaro fears the culling
12/16/08

In reply to Dos And Don'ts
This post reminds me of Kathy Griffin saying she wanted to have her period all over Saddam's palace. I know they are two different countries, but the sentiment is priceless.
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LindsayC: doctoral hilarity ensues
12/16/08

In reply to Dos And Don'ts
The graveyard bit is bothersome as well. Wouldn't it be considered a good thing to pay respects to the dead? Can anyone offer some insight into this?
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LindsayC: doctoral hilarity ensues
12/16/08

@LindsayC: doctoral hilarity ensues: Duh- sorry. I just read more carefully- they can make investments. Commence blushing.
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SarahMC
12/16/08

@LindsayC: doctoral hilarity ensues: I wonder if it's because the man-beasts hang out in graveyards waiting to attack the wimminz, so for their own protection women are forbidden to go there.
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LindsayC: doctoral hilarity ensues
12/16/08

@SarahMC: The linked blog says it's cultural and religious. I'm curious for further explanation.
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BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit)
12/16/08

@SarahMC: Well, Satan lurks in the woods waiting to tempt the women and cause them to make their neighbors' crops fail, so you may be on to something.
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stacyinbean
12/16/08

@SarahMC: @LindsayC: doctoral hilarity ensues: Oh dear, this one is a bit rough, it's because back in the day women were often quite hysterical at funerals and this was not pleasant for teh menz so the ladies can't go anymore. Also, I'm relatively certain this isn't written in the Qur'an, and was sort of made up over time. I don't think it is that widely practiced, but Saudi Arabia is known for being the asshole of all assholes.
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stacyinbean
12/16/08

@stacyinbean: Sorry, funerals is a mistake, they CAN go to funerals, just not to the actual graveyard with the body...
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YourScreenplaySucks
12/16/08

@LindsayC: doctoral hilarity ensues: I remember that the Saudi 9-11 terrorists specifically requested in their wills that women not be permitted to attend their funerals or handle their dead bodies, like women were a polluting presence. Don't know if there's a connection. I must say, maggot-ridden corpses seem fairly polluted all on their own.
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SarahMC
12/16/08

@stacyinbean: Oh my god, so women can't attend their own relatives' funerals?!?!
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stacyinbean
12/16/08

@SarahMC: No no, they can go to the actual funeral prayer, just not to the actual grave. My mistake! Also, any sort of display of grief is highly advised against (which is surprising given what we are shown.) You aren't supposed to question the wisdom of God to give/take life, such as.
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SarahMC
12/16/08

@stacyinbean: Still, though, they can't go to the burials!? I'm surprised they even bury women and girls in S.A. You'd think they'd just toss female remains to the sharks. GRRRRRRR.
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cwisto moweina has got yer goat
12/16/08

@Your Screenplay Sucks: Why would handling their dead bodies be relevant? Did they really think there would be anything left to handle?
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LindsayC: doctoral hilarity ensues
12/16/08

In reply to Dos And Don'ts
Well, the car paradox is strange. Why can you own a car but not drive it? Why can you own a car (an investment, possibly) but not make cash investments?
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Kivrin
12/16/08

@LindsayC: doctoral hilarity ensues: Probably so that, if you get married, your husband will then take over those property rights. Or some such nonsense.
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DangerMouse
12/16/08

@LindsayC: doctoral hilarity ensues: My mom owned a car before she was old enough to drive, but I've never really gotten to the bottom of WHY.

Her brother totaled it anyway.
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