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Vasectomies: A "Minor Surgery With A Major Image Problem"

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Deaf Mute
06/15/09

In reply to Vasectomies: A "Minor Surgery With A Major Image Problem"
I think many of the women here are being on some level insensitive or uncaring to how their husbands or men would actually feel about this procedure.

I agree it is very much unfair to have to force your wife to get her tubes tied over yours, but at the same time comparing the medical procedures dictated by our differing anatomies (like the pam smear for example or vaginal exams) is unfair. It isn't out fault our anatomy is different.

It's also equally sexist to make claims "Man up" or "BE A MAN", because if I were to criticize something a woman wanted to do because it is HER OWN DECISION and told her to "behave like a woman" I would be called a bigot.

Sexism goes both ways ladies, I get enough of it from homophobic guys and I don't need any of it from you either. -_-

Even further, logic aside I just find the very idea of the procedure very uncomfortable. I don't want to do any sort of procedure that is unnecessary, no matter how quick and simple it is to perform. I may be saying this just because I'm young, but the idea of a vasectomy is just too much for me to even consider. Of course, I don't plan on forcing my partner to get her tubes tied.

Why can't I just simply stick to the condom (yes I know it doesn't work 100% of the time) and other safe practices to avoid pregnancy?

Just consider it for your partners perspective, ignore their gender for once. It is just as wrong to force your man to get this procedure done when he doesn't want to as it is for him to do the same to you.
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clevernamehere
06/15/09

@Deaf Mute: I don't think every man who doesn't want a vasectomy is an asshole, but there are a lot of situations where I think the guy really needs to suck it up.

-Lots of guys don't want to use condoms or other barrier methods but hormonal birth control has a long list of side effects. The guy has to be willing to compromise somehow- either condoms or the snip.

-I've known women who were told they could never get pregnant again without seriously risking their lives. In these cases, the doctor recommends either one of them get sterilized to avoid the tiny birth control failure rate. Female steralization is much more risky and I think a guy who won't agree to a snip in that situation is really selfish.
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Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
06/15/09

@Deaf Mute: Define 'other safe practices' and explain how you and only you will be sticking to them.

I agree, some of the comments here come off as insensitive and sexist, but what you're reading is exasperation. The shit that men aren't willing to put up with is embarrassing compared to the pain, trouble and expense they expect their female partners to put up with... if they even consider it at all.
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
06/16/09

@Deaf Mute: "It is just as wrong to force your man to get this procedure done when he doesn't want to as it is for him to do the same to you. "

Except that couples usually make the decision together to stop having children/never start having children, and two thirds of the time, it's only the woman who gets sterilized. Vasectomies are far cheaper, far less risky, far less invasive, and slightly more effective, and still more men opt to protect themselves from a small risk and insist their partners take a much larger one.

The reasons not to just use condoms forever is that they are only 85% effective, costly over time, and because of decreased sensation for the men.

I can't imagine that you would be called a bigot for telling anyone to "behave like a woman" if you did so, because it simply does not carry the same meaning in our culture. "Be a man" means to be brave, strong, tough, which is why it's been used in an ironic way to refer to cowardly men, by some women here.
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Deaf Mute
06/16/09

@Hana Maru: "because of decreased sensation for the men"

Another thing I was completely unaware of.

"I can't imagine that you would be called a bigot for telling anyone to "behave like a woman" if you did so, because it simply does not carry the same meaning in our culture. "Be a man" means to be brave, strong, tough, which is why it's been used in an ironic way to refer to cowardly men, by some women here."

Okay, but what about Machismo which dictates that men shouldn't use condoms?

Appealing to these imaginary rules that dictate how a gender should behave is no different from how so many of you complain about Paternity and the system men have created for their convenience in society. It is just as bad as if I were to say all women should stay in the kitchen and attacked a woman's feminitity because she's indepedent, smart, and doesn't conform to my views of how a women ought to behave.

Attacking a man's masculinity does your argument no favors, it may work on those with weak egos but not all (like me). Instead it leaves only an impression of hypocrisy.

Men are no longer the blood-thirsty, battle-frenzy, dirty warriors of centuries past. Society has evolved and so have we. You can't ask for us to be sensible and reasonable while also at the same time remaining brutish thugs.

I think it is quite interesting to see women bring up the "be a man" argument for their convenience and of course dictate for themselves what a man ought to do, you are naturally going to make rules that work at your own convenience.

It is not only men that should be brave, tough, and strong.
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
06/16/09

@Deaf Mute: Women here are not actually appealing to traditional standards of masculinity, not at all. You missed my point. I said that it's been used ironically. Because men continue to be regarded as tough and strong, while women are regarded as weak and ineffectual, despite all the evidence to the contrary. We are not women who believe in traditional gendered behaviors. We are just tired of actully being the brave, tough, strong ones, while society insists that these are male qualities.

And what about machismo dictating that men not use condoms? I'm not sure what you mean by this statement, but I do agree that it's a factor, one primarily affecting women, since as receptive partners we are 8 times more likely to be infected with an STD in any given encounter, and because we are the ones who risk pregnancy.
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
06/16/09

@Hana Maru: Really, the risk of pregnancy with condoms is the biggest thing for me to not use them with my husband because sex feels the same with or without for women. Condoms do sometimes break, even when used correctly. I've had my pregnancy scares and taken Plan B, while I have 2 friends who've gotten pregnant accidentally. At this point in my life I'd really like to feel totally secure with what we're using.
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fluxus flucker
06/15/09

In reply to Vasectomies: A "Minor Surgery With A Major Image Problem"
THANK YOU THANK YOU Jezzie Gods.

This is such a big issue in my family right now.

My man and I have 2 kids. I had hard pregnancies and miscarriages. We can't afford anymore kids. I tried an IUD but it didn't work well for my body (PAIN! for a year and so $$$).

So for a while now He's been planning to get a vasectomy. Its by far the most logical choice for us and as my guy is not some sexist jerk whose self-worth is tied up in his dick, it was never that big of a deal.

Well now, my usually VERY sensible husband has backed out.

Because he has read about Post Vasectomy Pain Syndrome which effects - wait for it - approx. 1/1000 patients.

1/1000!!!!

I've tried to reason with him.

I've also explained that my body has done a hell of a lot for our family, with negative lasting results. In fact, I'll be having surgery to correct a rather common problem caused by pregnancy. The list goes on and on of things I have dealt with. I run a greater risk for pain every single month and certainly with every pregnancy (including death as a risk) and the probability of those things are VASTLY GREATER than 1/1000! AND I AM NOT HAVING TUBAL LIGATION or any other procedure. My body has had to deal with far too much - that I won't even get into here.

And yet, he's still "thinking about it" - code for, blowing it off. Our conversations go in circles. I've asked him to see multiple urologists to talk about his concerns. He hasn't made appointments.

I'm offended, hurt, and furious. But, trying to hide the anger.

I don't want to threaten him by saying NO SEX UNTIL YOU GET THE SNIP. But, god, damn, that is what I am thinking. No, that is what I am planning.

Any advice at all? PLEASE!
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ZemarSea Urchin
06/15/09

@fluxus flucker: Also here are some quick facts that might help you (if you don't already know all about it). [www.malehealthcenter.com]
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fluxus flucker
06/15/09

@ZemarSea Urchin: Thanks so much. We've actually both checked out that website and others. I would love to go with him to a consultation, but as I said, it won't schedule one (or agree to any dates that I try to schedule one - he's always "busy").

It really sucks because we've been best friends since we were teens, we generally get along better and are more openly affectionate than the majority of our married friends, until recently we, for the most, part had an amazing sex life and have been able to talk about anything.

I did show him the Jez article and comments a while ago. He told me then that he's leaning towards the vasectomy more than he was yesterday. Still no planned consultation, but maybe we're getting closer.

Thanks again for all your reasonable advice and the web link.
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
06/15/09

@fluxus flucker: Oh god, no advice, but I can relate somewhat:( I would also say of my husband that he's not a sexist jerk...except for this sexist expectation that he not take any risks with his body for our shared goal of childlessness. He was deeply offended that I would suggest that he take such a great medical risk until I yelled an account of all of my birth control side effect travails, up to going on the NuvaRing and Ortho Evra despite my family history of heart attack and stroke, just so he can skip the condom. He quit whining but I know he'll still never do it. I refuse to have the riskier and more costly t.l. and he doesn't expect me to.

I'm not convinced that this PVPS thing is even real. After almost 4,000 pageviews why hasn't anyone supported this idea with an anecdote, even from a friend of a friend? Of all the men I know and you know who've had a vasectomy, why are they all okay?

My dad's unwillingness to take risks with his body led to my mom having TWO tubal ligations, the second one after the first one failed. I refuse to go down that road.
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Penny_Esq
06/15/09

@fluxus flucker: Good luck! I hope he comes around and eventually grasps that a relationship is a partnership and you've already pulled more than your weight in the reproductive responsibility/pain component. It's Mr. Flucker's turn to make a sacrifice, frankly.
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clevernamehere
06/15/09

@fluxus flucker: Have you thought about seeing a couples counselor? Most of them will do short term counselling (3-4 sessions) to talk through a single issue.

But otherwise, why not just use condoms?
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Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
06/15/09

In reply to Vasectomies: A "Minor Surgery With A Major Image Problem"
I wonder what's cheaper- vasectomy plus keeping sperm frozen for years, or buying condoms and paying for birth control. I'm seriously interested. because if I were a dude, I'd be tempted to opt for the former.
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clevernamehere
06/15/09

@HeatherNumber1: Frozen sperm = ivf which costs at least $10k per attempt and doesn't have a super high success rate.

I don't think anyone who thinks they may possibly want kids in the future should even consider a vasectomy. It isn't always reversible and the frozen sperm method is super expensive.
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lurker2209
06/15/09

@clevernamehere:

But if the sperm is frozen and the female partner has no fertility problems, isn't it possible to just artificially inseminate without harvesting eggs? As in the good old turkey baster method? Obviously, you'd want professionals to do the thawing to ensure that the sperm weren't damaged, but the insemination would be a pretty low tech and not all that expensive process.
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clevernamehere
06/15/09

@lurker2209: You'd have to stockpile a lot of sperm for that to be viable. No fertility problems doesn't mean a woman will instantly become pregnant.
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
06/15/09

In reply to Vasectomies: A "Minor Surgery With A Major Image Problem"
My husband will GO OFF if I even bring up vasectomies, citing something called "Post-Vasectomy Pain Syndrome", which I can only find cited on Wikipedia, not on any reputable health info site. He thinks it's just not as well known as it should be. I think it's ludicrous that between 5-35% of male patients would experience severe chronic genital pain and that would be just swept under the rug by the male-dominated medical establishment.

The whole thing is moot from a practical standpoint because I want to continue skipping periods with my hormonal b.c., but it makes me uneasy that he has this typical guy "don't mess with my junk" attitude. If I wasn't happy with my b.c. I have no idea what we'd do.
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
06/15/09

@Hana Maru: And I just went off my Ortho Evra patch (cost with insurance: about $1000 per year) and got on the Mirena IUD($500 per 5 years) and I'm going through a lot of headaches, cramping and irregular bleeding now, plus my cervix is swollen and hard.
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iluvbacon
06/15/09

In reply to Vasectomies: A "Minor Surgery With A Major Image Problem"
My husband refused a vasectomy even though WE did not want any more kids. He kept comparing it to being neutered.I begged him to do it because it was cheaper and less invasive. At 29 I had been pregnant 5 times but only carried 2 to term. I thought he was being ridiculous but i bit the bullet and had my tubes tied evenn though i had to go to 3 doctors to find someone to do it since my regular OB/GYN refused.

Just a few months ago the subject came up and he made the statement that vasectomies were no big deal. After all these years (15) I became furious with him and he could not understand why. He was being selfish - I was right. He said he felt bad after I had my tubes tied because "it was harder on me than he thought it would be". Yeah - I had complications that led to scarring and another surgery. So now he supports vasectomies. Lovely.
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
06/15/09

@iluvbacon: (((hugs)))
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Jack_Burton
06/15/09

In reply to Vasectomies: A "Minor Surgery With A Major Image Problem"
I refuse to get a vasectomy until Bill O'Reilly stops writing kids' books. ;]
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DenleyCodrus
06/15/09

In reply to Vasectomies: A "Minor Surgery With A Major Image Problem"
My personal aversion to a vasectomy would come with the chronic ball pain(wiki says 5-35% of cases) that can last a lifetime. I couldn't possibly care less about my traitorous ways.
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clevernamehere
06/15/09

@DenleyCodrus: I'm pretty sure that is an unsourced fact that was basically made up.
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maggeimerc
06/15/09

In reply to Vasectomies: A "Minor Surgery With A Major Image Problem"
It is funny, all the men in my family are pro-vasectomy as it means no condoms and no niggling fear of a baby somewhere down the line....but then the men in my family are educated modern men. Is it wrong that I think a man is a moron if he refuses to get a vasectomy and insists that his partner go in for a tube tying surgery?
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SomeAuthorGirl
06/15/09

@maggeimerc: In a word, no.
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Jack_Burton
06/15/09

@maggeimerc: "Insisting" that your partner be sterilized sounds incredibly selfish in the first place; I'd no sooner insist on such a thing for another as stay with someone who insisted as much for me.
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tinydundie42
06/16/09

@maggeimerc: Nope, I totally agree. My dad got a vasectomy a long long time ago, so a guy who wouldn't do it sounds idiotic to me.
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AuntieBee
06/15/09

In reply to Vasectomies: A "Minor Surgery With A Major Image Problem"
My only vasectomy story: A woman my mother knew demanded that her husband have a vasectomy. She had two sons from her previous marriage, and so after they had one together she said enough. Fast forward a couple of years, she wants to have an affair. And I guess she was lazy and didn't want to be bothered with condoms or some crap. So she asked my mother to help her come up with an excuse to tell her husband why she needed her tubes tied. My mom was appalled, and didn't provide any such help.

Needless to say, they are divorced now. I really hope his new wife doesn't desperately want kids.
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lucyjae
06/15/09

In reply to Vasectomies: A "Minor Surgery With A Major Image Problem"
My roommate's brother just got snipped. He and his wife have 2 kids and know they don't want and can't afford any more. His mother was LIVID, could not understand why he would want to get this done. She also hates the wife and is convinced they'll get divorced, but that's another over-involved-mother story for another time.
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mommy_dearest
06/15/09

@lucyjae: daddy_dearest is heading to get one of these done soon, and his mom will be PISSED if she finds out. We only have one kid, and she is always telling us to have more. She tells my four year old to ask me for a little brother (no, never a sister, just a boy will do). I have so many horrid mother-in-law stories involving church, guns, miscarriages, etc. Over-involved indeed.
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SovietBear
06/15/09

In reply to Vasectomies: A "Minor Surgery With A Major Image Problem"
I had my vasectomy when I was 27 and no prior kids. My general practitioner told me I should reconsider, and that the urologist he referred me to would probably require a psychiatric evaluation before the procedure.

I scheduled my appointment, told the doctor that I hate kids and the idea of kids and that he should call my mother if he wanted any proof of my lifelong aversion to kids. He chuckled, had me lie down on the table, and 25 minutes later I waddled out with 5 stitches and the oddest pain of my life.

I would do it again in a heartbeat (and urologists are pretty funny. I got 5 or 6 funny dick jokes out of the endeavor).
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pear.shaped.Sara
06/15/09

@SovietBear: I would like to hear some funny dick jokes plz
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Majrhoulihan
06/15/09

In reply to Vasectomies: A "Minor Surgery With A Major Image Problem"
My partner is the best. He tells me all the time that he fully intends to have a vasectomy after we have children.

I love him.
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Little Green Frog (Wise Latina)
06/15/09

@Majrhoulihan: Get it in writing, girl. See my story above.
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Majrhoulihan
06/15/09

@Little Green Frog: The only reason I'm not worried, is because his father, who is widely regarded by the entire family as a whiner, with little tolerance for pain and discomfort had one.

There is no way he would ever in a million years let his father out-do him.

But perhaps writing might be a good idea.
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BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit)
06/15/09

In reply to Vasectomies: A "Minor Surgery With A Major Image Problem"
Men don't like surgery or doctors with pointy objects going near their privates? Boo fucking hoo. I don't enjoy my pap smear. Getting my IUD put in hurt like a bitch--you should have seen the scary size of the giant metal things she came at me with. Every month I get massive pains from my period. I've heard childbirth is kinda ouchey, too. SUCK IT UP BE A MAN.
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Kivrin
06/15/09

@BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit): GROW A PAIR, MENFOLK. (And then kindly allow the doctor to snip the vas deferens inside said pair o' balls! 'K thanks.)
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colormeroutine
06/15/09

@BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit): The phrase "man-up" always makes me want to laugh. It's basically like telling someone to lose all pain tolerance and whine obnoxiously
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BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit)
06/15/09

@colormeroutine: Ha!
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Little Green Frog (Wise Latina)
06/15/09

In reply to Vasectomies: A "Minor Surgery With A Major Image Problem"
Do you know what my husband said when I ask him to get the vasectomy we had agreed on early in our marriage?

He said: I am not going to get it because my Tai Chi instructor said it will mess up my chi.

Yep.

(Then I got my tubes tied. The end)
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BeckySharper
06/15/09

@Little Green Frog: Was there a middle part to that story where you smacked him upside the head?
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Little Green Frog (Wise Latina)
06/15/09

@BeckySharper: Funny you should ask. He was present at my pre-op appointment and my OB/GYN called him a pansy.
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SkipToMyLou
06/15/09

@Little Green Frog:

Post Script: And then you got divorced?
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Little Green Frog (Wise Latina)
06/15/09

@SkipToMyLou: Nah. Ups and downs, but we are still working on it. I would say that was one of our worst downs.
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BeckySharper
06/15/09

@Little Green Frog: I think that was a sound medical diagnosis!

I know in marriage you have to pick your battles, but if my husband did that, it might be very hard for me to let it go.
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Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
06/15/09

@Little Green Frog: You mean your first husband, right? ...Right?
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Little Green Frog (Wise Latina)
06/15/09

@BeckySharper: @HeatherNumber1: Ha! We are still together.

Truth be told, I was not completely mad about it because it all was paid by insurance, it wasn't that high risk, I love and trust my OB/GYN of 14 years, and I had developed a TON of other medical issues which make me terrified of being pregnant again in the (extremely) remote chance his vasectomy failed.

I still hold a grudge about it. For example, I HATE Tai Chi and false Eastern medical "advice", and I've earned the right to roll my eyes whenever anything close to those subjects comes up. I was VERY disappointed because it was something that we had agreed on, but I went ahead with it, not because I felt pressured by him backing off, but because I was sure (and am) of MY decision of not having any more kids and take care of MY future health problems.
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mass romantic
06/15/09

In reply to Vasectomies: A "Minor Surgery With A Major Image Problem"
Two points: 1. Aren't vasectomies like, not quite infallible? I've heard that right afterwards you should use another birth control method to be safe.

2. I think one of the reasons women have their tubes tied more is because doctors are already in there for a C-section. My mom did this - after 2 kids she knew she was not putting her body through that again. I mean, I agree with the post's point about men taking responsibility too, but I bet C-section add-ons explain a lot of tubal ligations.
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PrettyNotPretty
06/15/09

@mass romantic: In about 1 out of 100 cases, the vas deferens can heal back together or something like that, so they recommend testing the sperm a bit after.

But once you know those bad boys are severed for good, it's basically infallible.
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colormeroutine
06/15/09

@mass romantic: When I was a kid I was friends with a family who had 6 kids before the husband got a vasectomy. They then had sex ONE DAY before the amount of time they were told to wait to make sure all sperm had cleared out of the area...and cue baby number 7. According to my mother there was quite the screaming fight when he was informed of this, the husband accused the wife of cheating and she asked when the hell she would have the TIME to cheat with 6 kids already
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SomeAuthorGirl
06/15/09

@mass romantic: I actually heard that point 2 was not precisely legal/ethical.

When I had my c-section the doc leaned over the sheet to say, "Hey, SomeAuthorGirl, do you want us to tie your tubes while we're in here?" To which I replied, "hrmahawahaaaa....?" Yeah, I was totally high on the anesthetics after being awake for 3 days trying to get a human being out of my womb.

It infuriates the shit out of me that this happens with frequency.

They should ask men the vasectomy question while they're high on something, just to even out the numbers. There'd be a lot more yes's.
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mass romantic
06/15/09

@SomeAuthorGirl: Oh wow, they didn't bring it up beforehand? No I was definitely thinking of people who were having their nth kid and told the OBGYN beforehand to tie their tubes. My mom approached her docs about it, they made my dad sign off on it (which pisses me off but whatevs) and then it was no more babiez! Yay!
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SomeAuthorGirl
06/15/09

@mass romantic: Nope. I wasn't planning the c-section, so that's probably why. Makes sense if you're planning it!

And ew on making your dad sign off. THAT seems unethical to me.
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SovietBear
06/15/09

@colormeroutine: I was told to ejaculate 30-40 times before resuming intercourse. I did 57 reps over a 2 week period and came out clear. He evidently didn't do his homework.
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WantToTouchtheWahine
06/15/09

@SovietBear: That sounds like the best recovery process ever.

Wish it were the same for pregnancy.
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
06/15/09

@PrettyNotPretty: but with tubal ligation, the failure rate, even when performed correctly, is slightly higher.
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