I dunno. The investigator is the same guy who totally botched the Monster of Florence investigation. She may be guilty as sin, but I don't trust the Italian judicial system as far as I can throw it.
I watched a various 20/20 and other in depth new reports on this story and nothing really adds up. I won't say she isn't guilty here, but I do think that its possible she was manipulated by many people, namely the Italian police and her awful boyfriend. If she is guilty, I hope she does the time. But I believe at this point she has about as much possibility of having a fair trial as OJ had (second time around).
so much of the 'evidence' seems to be tied to: she's young, she's pretty, she's american, she was drinking and having sex while abroad, she didn't 'react' the way the Italian police thought she should (ie, she didn't get hysterical in typical womanly fashion) and she either intentionally or unintentionally pointed an accusing finger at her boss - after hours and hours of police interrogation, all conducted in Italian.
Whether she's guilty or not, I have no idea (although I will confess I lean toward innocent, simply because slitting someone's throat? does not sound like something a woman would do. But that's only my gut instinct, nothing scientific or factual about that). But the news coverage (both here and Italian) has been anything but unbiased.
@bitchyolympian: Really?! If the police interrogate someone long enough it is okay for the person to pick the first black family man they can find to pin it on? This from the liberal ones....post-racial my ass.
@Boa_Vista: no, my point was it's unclear after hours and hours of interrogation in Italian, whether she really understood she was implicating her boss.
now, if she did it *intentionally* - I'd say that leans towards her guilt. (Susan Smith, anyone?) But it's not clear that's what she did or what she intended.
@bitchyolympian: Well she speaks Italian right? Otherwise the police wouldn't be able to interrogate her in Italian. So I don't see language as the problem here. But whether the police led/forced her to that conclusion, as some people thought, I'm not sure.
I don't know much about Italian laws, but is it OK to interrogate someone without a lawyer present?
@eirwen: I speak French, and well enough to get around the country freely and have conversations with people though I might have to ask them to clarify sometimes, and have to take a moment to put a sentence together. If I were interrogated in French under highly stressful circumstances, my language skills would fall apart.
I'm confused. If Gede was convicted for rape and murder and sentenced to 30 years, WHY are she and her boyfriend facing life sentences? Even if they're guilty of what they're accused of (and I have NO idea if I think they are or not), wouldn't they be accessories, and therefore face less time, rather than more?
Instead of taking this opportunity to tut-tut someone like Patricia Clarkson in Far From Heaven, I would hope that all of the Jezzies take this opportunity to support a woman who is actually in the middle of having her life ruined by misoginist forces who think having sex makes you an immoral murder. That is basically the extent of the evidence. So, you know, chance to show those solidarity stripes you're always bragging about, ladies.
Note to self: Despite childhood love of Ninja Turtles, do not date any Raphael, Raffaello, Raffaele, etc. (Sorry, Nadal, it's just not going to work out. I have a hot date with Michelangelo Signorile and Leonardo DiCaprio...and Donatella Versace?)
@jejune - the giraffe hugger: I think I've said it here before, but that article focuses so much on her looks - and her mother's looks, as far as I can remember - that I just can't take it seriously.
@jejune - the giraffe hugger: Agreed. Learning that it was the same prosecutor who was convinced that a Satanic cult was behind serial murders in Florence is what clinched it. The guy sounds looney-tunes.
@Sweet Panda Love: The article from the journalist who wrote a book about those murders, and what he went through trying to research it is crazy, and really makes me fear for any chance of a fair trial. [www.theatlantic.com]
I think she's guilty of something. I'm not sure it's murder, but I also don't think it matters. She's likely to be convicted regardless, even if the evidence against her is largely circumstantial. That's what bugs me the most about the case - that it seems to have already been decided in the court of public opinion and press.
I was going to write that I am not sure if she is guilty or not but to be honest I think she was somehow involved. I watched the interview with her parents on one of the broadcast channels late last year and I was not convinced she had absolutely nothing to do with it. Apart from that she accused her black boss that had nothing to do with it!!! How very callous! It is quite frightening to honest because she is the type of person, given her age and the part of the country she is from, I would never assume will do something like that.
@Boa_Vista: yeah but I was under the impression that she gave that accusation while being interrogated and having the idea planted in her by the cops. People will say anything under interrogation. The police are pounding you for something, suggesting leads, you make something up. I don't think it is necessarily evidence of guilt.
As in so many crimes, nobody except the killer and the dead has any fucking clue what really happened.
I'm always confused about something, and this has long been a source of it for me. I remember watching a show about this over the summer, they said Rudy Guede was definitely a supect since his fingerprints were found all over the place. So it just doesn't add up, in my mind, that Amanda and her bf are facing life sentences for taking part in Meredith's murder. And the whole "sex game gone wrong" just seems made up. Evidently being interested in sex automatically means you're dangerously depraved to the point of cutting your partners' throat. I don't get it. I think way too much has been made of that alleged aspect of the whole story just because that makes it SENSATIONAL!! and that's just so transparently stupid. This whole thing disgusts me, as does the fact that both of them will probably be found guilty. Perversion of justice, anyone?
The whole thing is so tangled, I'm not sure we'll ever figured out what really happened. I suspect she'll be convicted very circumstantially, but convicted nonetheless. Whether she's guilty or not, only she knows.
I hope she gets a fair trial. I am not sure if she is guilty or not, but I am leaning towards guilty of SOMETHING... She has just lied too much about her whereabouts that evening. And trying to place the blame on the black man was really low.
@LaFemme: Thank you - I've written three responses now to this and keep deleating them because I wasn't saying it correctly. The bar owner whom she falsly accused who had no link to the crime and who they let go is the reason why I do tend to lean towards her being guilty of at the very least covering up what went on.
@LaFemme: That's why it's hard to definitively, as some here already have, say that she's innocent. If she didn't do anything or had nothing to do with the crime, then she wouldn't have needed to lie. If she had a solid alibi, why wasn't that the first thing out of her mouth?
@LaFemme: But didn't that accusation only come out AFTER she had been interrogated for hours with legal representation, and in Italian?
I don't think much of any evidence found in this trial is non circumstantial. She is being tried for her lifestyle, not based on actual evidence. It seems the italian police wanted to find a conspiracy, and so they hobbled one together.
@maggiemei: The hours of interrogation is really not as relevant to me as people seem to be making it out to be, at least in terms of blaming another innocent person. I am actually trained in interrogation (I am not shitting you) and it is VERY rare that a person who is innocent, uninvolved, and being accused of a crime will place blame on someone who is not involved in any way. It is actually really, really difficult to get truly innocent people to admit to heinous crimes they had no involvement in and if most people are in the situation where they are being interrogated, their emotional reaction tends to be to get really upset, stick to a story, and insist that everyone they know, along with themselves could not possibly have been involved.
It happens more often that you portray it to occur. Plenty of innocent people confessed to whatever their interrogators wanted them to confess to. Just ask victims of the various South American dictators, Nazi victims, and the millions persecuted in Stalin's Russia...or, ask the many many black men that confessed to crimes they didn't commit in the South under interrogations by racist police since the civil war.
As far as Knox goes, at this point, the Italian police care less about justice than simply getting a conviction and not looking incompetent. The evidence so far presented in the media against Knox is weak at best. The Italian police's theory of the crime tests the bounds of rationality and absurdity. Sadly, Knox will probably be convicted based on her lifestyle and not on actual hard evidence that she is actually guilty.
@emilyanne: This has bothered me so much since the very beginning. Why the quick guilty verdict on the black guy who (i think he did, correct me if im wrong, anyone...) had an alibi? At least from what i've read, the evidence against the bartender was simply Knox's testimony, right? Why are she and the other white person getting this extended trial while the African guy gets damned to prison almost immediately? Knox may be innocent, but the implicating of the bar owner (see, i don't even know his NAME, yet her name is everywhere) is truly fucked.
@reita1: Also: it has been said that the reason for the fingerprints of all three defendants being all over the house was because they all hung out there. At this point, I don't even know if I believe anything the press is releasing. Its all so skewed. I'd want them at my trial, too if I was Knox, just because at least they are receiving the information first hand and it's less potential for inaccurate reportage. Seems like a large part of this whole case has been based on irrelevant speculation via the press, etc.
@Tangy.Nihilist: Yeah, of course people give false confessions when they are being tortured, which, as far as I have seen was not the situation. Being talked to for 4 hours or even 8 hrs or 10 hrs is not torture. I haven't seen anything that says she was having her fingernails pulled out, just that the situation was "really stressful" and several hours long.
My hesitation isnt even really centered on her confessing, but on the technicality of bringing in another person and placing blame. It is one thing to incriminate yourself and just confess because it is easier, but not nearly as common to look around and point a finger at someone. I don't necessarily think that means guilty, but I think it does mean she should be doing a lot more talking, which hopefully over the course of the past year has happened.
You want to know my gut instinct? I think she is covering for someone, maybe the boyfriend.
@reita1: I don't think she blamed the guy at all. If I recall correctly, the cops kept badgering her about "who could ahve done this? Who was interested in Amanda? Who?" and she offered that her boss thought Amanda was pretty, or something like that. I don't think she EVER claimed he did it, or even that she saw him around there at the time of the murder.
@nellicat: I've heard all different versions (see comments above mine); that's one of the things that's so fucked about this case. But who knows...like I said, I'm just wary of the Italian justice system altogether.
@LaFemme: Er, there have been PLENTY of cases of false confession that involved no torture whatsoever, just "really stressful" interrogations.
More and more people are being found innocent after years in jail by DNA tests finally being applied to their cases, and many of them had falsely confessed. There is growing recognition of this phenomenon, and accompanying calls for reform of interrogation techniques, and things like mandatory videotaping of all interrogations.
[www.innocenceproject.ca] However, the most significant factor which gives rise to false confessions is the police interrogation technique. While the common assumption is that the police investigation is solely aimed at accurate fact-finding, this is usually not the case. The method used by police to question individuals arrested for crimes has one singular purpose - to obtain a confession. An illustration of this is available in the "Reid Technique", an interrogation technique, taught to police officers around the world. Step 3 of the technique is explicitly stated as "never allow the suspect to deny guilt". If the suspect claims innocence, the officer is to continue interrogation until they eventually obtain the confession. Police can even go as far as lying about the available evidence against an accused in order to persuade them to confess (possibly in exchange for leniency, as described above).
@formergr: Step 3 of the technique is explicitly stated as "never allow the suspect to deny guilt". If the suspect claims innocence, the officer is to continue interrogation until they eventually obtain the confession. Police can even go as far as lying about the available evidence against an accused in order to persuade them to confess (possibly in exchange for leniency, as described above).
This is absolutely not true; I have spent days and days in training with Reid. It is completely illegal to lie or falsify evidence for the purpose of obtaining a confession. It is also illegal to promise or imply leniency in sentencing in exchange for a confession. Does it happen? Yeah probably. Is it part of that technique? No.
Anyway, my point was not that her confession is necessarily valid, but that implicating someone else is a red flag that is usually and OF COURSE not always, a sign that someone is lying to some extent about their own involvement.
@LaFemme: Thanks for the response; I thought it was probably too late after your post to get one, so I'm glad you came back!
I hope you don't think I was implying that *you* would or have used improper interview techniques, just that as you said it does happen that they are misused, and when they do I think it could easily lead to false confession.
It may have happened here (but we have no way of knowing for certain), especially given the reputation of the Italian police force.
@trakkie: She allegedly committed a crime in Italy so she will be tried and if found guilty, punished there. You extradite people to try them in your own country - not to remove them from trials in other countries.
@trakkie: Because the crime wasn't committed on American soil. We don't have any jurisdiction. We can't just pluck our citizens out of foreign countries just because we don't like their justice systems. If you commit a crime on foreign soil, then your trial and any ensuing punishment are served there.
@trakkie: Or, she's being given the benefit of the doubt because she's young and pretty and American. As this thread is demonstrating, there are two ways of seeing this.
Emilyanne's comment below mentions one of the reasons I think she's guilty, FWIW.
@Eeva: That's an interesting way to see that actually. Especially in light of the fact that the African student has already been convicted and is already serving his sentence. He may have plead out, admitted his guilt or been given a deal in exchange for his testimony, but doesn't it say something about the fact that the black African is already finished with his trial and the white American girl has just started hers? According to the the prosecution's claim (which could very well be false), all three of them were present during her rape and murder and therefore all equally guilty.
@EkaterinaBallerina: Privilege isn't acting in a totally clear cut way here, though, since Knox has been held for a year now without knowing one way or the other what will happen to her - not as bad as a 30 year sentence, in one way, but nonetheless inexcusable the Italian system couldn't get their crap together and start her trial in a more timely manner.
Ugh, just imagine what the poor victim's family is going through, with all of this media-spun-make-a-personality-out-of-the-attacker-hoopla on top of the horror of losing their daughter that way.
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Whether she's guilty or not, I have no idea (although I will confess I lean toward innocent, simply because slitting someone's throat? does not sound like something a woman would do. But that's only my gut instinct, nothing scientific or factual about that). But the news coverage (both here and Italian) has been anything but unbiased.
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now, if she did it *intentionally* - I'd say that leans towards her guilt. (Susan Smith, anyone?) But it's not clear that's what she did or what she intended.
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I don't know much about Italian laws, but is it OK to interrogate someone without a lawyer present?
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Am I allowed to show my "solidarity stripes" by hoping that the murderers of a 19-year-old woman be bought to justice?
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Really, Italy?
Is it too much to ask that the tragic death of a young woman be treated with some decorum, respect, and/or dignity?
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[www.radaronline.com]
After reading it, I truly and honestly believe she is not guilty.
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[www.theatlantic.com]
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As in so many crimes, nobody except the killer and the dead has any fucking clue what really happened.
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I don't think much of any evidence found in this trial is non circumstantial. She is being tried for her lifestyle, not based on actual evidence. It seems the italian police wanted to find a conspiracy, and so they hobbled one together.
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[crime.about.com]
It happens more often that you portray it to occur. Plenty of innocent people confessed to whatever their interrogators wanted them to confess to. Just ask victims of the various South American dictators, Nazi victims, and the millions persecuted in Stalin's Russia...or, ask the many many black men that confessed to crimes they didn't commit in the South under interrogations by racist police since the civil war.
As far as Knox goes, at this point, the Italian police care less about justice than simply getting a conviction and not looking incompetent. The evidence so far presented in the media against Knox is weak at best. The Italian police's theory of the crime tests the bounds of rationality and absurdity. Sadly, Knox will probably be convicted based on her lifestyle and not on actual hard evidence that she is actually guilty.
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My hesitation isnt even really centered on her confessing, but on the technicality of bringing in another person and placing blame. It is one thing to incriminate yourself and just confess because it is easier, but not nearly as common to look around and point a finger at someone. I don't necessarily think that means guilty, but I think it does mean she should be doing a lot more talking, which hopefully over the course of the past year has happened.
You want to know my gut instinct? I think she is covering for someone, maybe the boyfriend.
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More and more people are being found innocent after years in jail by DNA tests finally being applied to their cases, and many of them had falsely confessed. There is growing recognition of this phenomenon, and accompanying calls for reform of interrogation techniques, and things like mandatory videotaping of all interrogations.
[www.innocenceproject.ca] However, the most significant factor which gives rise to false confessions is the police interrogation technique. While the common assumption is that the police investigation is solely aimed at accurate fact-finding, this is usually not the case. The method used by police to question individuals arrested for crimes has one singular purpose - to obtain a confession. An illustration of this is available in the "Reid Technique", an interrogation technique, taught to police officers around the world. Step 3 of the technique is explicitly stated as "never allow the suspect to deny guilt". If the suspect claims innocence, the officer is to continue interrogation until they eventually obtain the confession. Police can even go as far as lying about the available evidence against an accused in order to persuade them to confess (possibly in exchange for leniency, as described above).
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This is absolutely not true; I have spent days and days in training with Reid. It is completely illegal to lie or falsify evidence for the purpose of obtaining a confession. It is also illegal to promise or imply leniency in sentencing in exchange for a confession. Does it happen? Yeah probably. Is it part of that technique? No.
Anyway, my point was not that her confession is necessarily valid, but that implicating someone else is a red flag that is usually and OF COURSE not always, a sign that someone is lying to some extent about their own involvement.
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I hope you don't think I was implying that *you* would or have used improper interview techniques, just that as you said it does happen that they are misused, and when they do I think it could easily lead to false confession.
It may have happened here (but we have no way of knowing for certain), especially given the reputation of the Italian police force.
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Can someone with law knowledge explain to me why she can't be extradited?
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[en.wikipedia.org]
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Emilyanne's comment below mentions one of the reasons I think she's guilty, FWIW.
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