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Where Should Jails House A Transsexual Prisoner?
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chinaplate
09/05/09

In reply to Where Should Jails House A Transsexual Prisoner?
Ok, so as far as the Guardian described it in the article they ran today, she's in prison for attempted rape, not rape. The reason she's serving a life term is that our legal system has a 'two-strikes' policy - if you commit two serious crimes adjacently you automatically get life. She was convicted of manslaughter of her partner as the original crime.

Her defence team is arguing that she attempted to rape the second woman as a result of gender-based psychological disturbance caused by the treatment of her initial arresting officers, who refused to acknowledge her gender identification.

I know those details are probably a little boring, but it does rather render the whole thing a little more complicated. It appears to be legally arguable that her incarceration was triggered BY a lack of understanding re: gender issues - I personally find that a bit more interesting and musable-upon than the headline-grabbing, titillating question of omg penis in the ladies' jail issue.
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Chivone
09/04/09

In reply to Where Should Jails House A Transsexual Prisoner?
TO EVERYONE COMMENTING ON THE LEGAL STATUS OF "A's" GENDER AT THE TIME OF HER CRIME: It doesn't fucking matter. It doesn't fucking matter. She is a woman now; she has always been a woman. So stop with the bullshit use of male pronouns because it was before her transition.
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voteforme
09/04/09

In reply to Where Should Jails House A Transsexual Prisoner?
What's the fallout though? I'm not comfortable with it being a simple matter of gender identity. How long before male criminals claim to identify as females so they can land themselves in a women's prison? If A raped a woman while the male anatomy was still in place, couldn't any male-identifying-as-a-male who committed claim to be internally female and then go rape-happy while locked up with female prisoners? It's not like anyone could force the men to cut off their dicks after getting out of prison in order to comply with their claims of identity, since many people who identify as trans don't go through with the surgery anyway.
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muddgirl
09/04/09

@voteforme: OMG WHAT IF MEN DRESS AS WOMEN TO GET INTO THE OLYMPICS???

WHAT IF MEN DRESS AS WOMEN TO GET INTO DRESSING ROOMS????

WHAT IF MEN DRESS AS WOMEN TO GET INTO LADIES NIGHT FOR FREE????

I'm getting really sick of this.
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voteforme
09/04/09

@muddgirl: You completely missed my point. The ultra-liberal view of gender identity is to believe that people are what they say they are. Would liberals be satisfied if the criteria for determining good faith and honesty regarding that identity were deemed invasive or ignorant?
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Hooplehead
09/04/09

@voteforme: No, she got your point. And her point is that yours looks a lot like this:

[en.wikipedia.org]
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muddgirl
09/04/09

In reply to Where Should Jails House A Transsexual Prisoner?
Making things a little more complicated is the fact that she's in jail for raping a woman.

Why? Where do they put cisgender women who are convicted of raping a woman? Do they put them in men's prison?

Seriously, transgender panic is not cool, even if that person is a criminal.
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Penny
09/04/09

@muddgirl: SHE did not rape a woman, HE did. She was male when the crime occurred.
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muddgirl
09/04/09

@Penny: It's clear from the article that the prisoner was experiencing "gender dysphoria" well before she committed the crimes in question. Therefore, I believe that she should be treated and addressed as a woman, no matter what her stage of transitioning. I don't believe that it's a simple matter of "penis equals man, no-penis equals woman".

There are "women born women" why have large clitorises that can become engorged. Should we treat these persons as men as well?
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aureliajones
09/04/09

In reply to Where Should Jails House A Transsexual Prisoner?
Did anyone else read the article? The guy already murdered someone (he was convicted of manslaughter), and got out after only one year! He strangles his boyfriend with stockings!
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Penny
09/04/09

@aureliajones: I read that. At least we've established that she belongs in prison!
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Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith
09/05/09

@aureliajones: SHE
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wooden_shoes
09/04/09

In reply to Where Should Jails House A Transsexual Prisoner?
A is a woman, thus she should be treated like a woman.

I had this argument once with a friend about, of all things, all girl schools and what they should do about transsexuals. If a woman defines herself as a woman she should be treated as one.
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Penny
09/04/09

@wooden_shoes: She defines herself as a woman but she's also a violent criminal. I am in agreement about where she should go, I'm just saying...
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Penny
09/04/09

In reply to Where Should Jails House A Transsexual Prisoner?
Yikes, this is really interesting....and, I don't know. I think the straight-forward answer is that because she is a woman by law, she should be put in a women's prison. However, you have to consider the crimes that most women are sent to prison for (I am just guessing here, but probably drugs, no?). There are far less violent female criminals than violent male criminals. I am pretty intrigued by A's sexuality. Because, she's transitioning, but I take it she's still into women? I am kind of interested in the details of the attack (like, was this woman an acquaintance?).
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gherkinfiend
09/04/09

@Penny: Apparently the woman was a stranger to him (as the law defined at the the time.)

Apologies for linking to the Mail, but if you get past the indignant tone, they are very detailed.

[www.dailymail.co.uk]
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Penny
09/04/09

@gherkinfiend: Ooooh, this muddies things. She committed the crime in 2001, when she was still male. She did not start taking hormones until 2003 and was granted her certificate in 2006.

So, the crime was committed when she was legally a different gender. Man....this is all kinds of fucked up.
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gherkinfiend
09/04/09

@Penny: I know! As Harlot Bronte says downthread it seems more like a question for a philosophy class. It's making my liberal little head spin.
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Penny
09/04/09

@gherkinfiend: The sticking point for me is the nature of the crime. I did some research, and 14% of incarcerated women are in jail for violent crimes, most of those crimes are defensive in nature. Most sexual assaults that happen in women's prisons are by male guards/employees. I think this just really brings up some uncomfortable conversations about gender reassignment and assumptions made about sex/gender, as well as prisoner rights and re-offending criminals. Mostly, I just feel uncomfortable putting a person who has committed a sexually violent act against a woman when the person was male in a female prison. Although I still stand by my comment that it seems to make sense as she is now legally defined as female.

I need a drink.
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Edited by Penny at 09/04/09 4:36 PM Penny was starred Penny was unstarred

girl.of.your.dreams
09/04/09

In reply to Where Should Jails House A Transsexual Prisoner?
I have to agree that it makes sense for her to be housed in a women's prison. She is considered a woman under the law, and more importantly, she identifies as a woman.

A lot of people are uncomfortable with the fact that she attempted to rape another woman, but we have to remember: this is a PRISON. She's there for committing a crime. And most crimes are against other people. Men who commit crimes against men are still put in men's prisons. The same does, and should, go for women. Now, if she is considered a threat to other prisoners in a way that the prison cannot prevent, then she should be housed alone. But still in a women's prison.
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LuvEwan
09/04/09

@girl.of.your.dreams: I agree. If she's a woman under the law, and especially since she identifies and lives as a woman and is transitioning, it makes so much more sense for her to be in a women's prison.

There are plenty of women who rape and kill other women and girls, but like you said, that's what prisons are for. To house criminals.
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Chamalla,barren crone
09/04/09

In reply to Where Should Jails House A Transsexual Prisoner?
If I read correctly, A will have reassignment surgery while incarcerated? Is elective surgery common among prisoners in the UK?
Honestly, I struggle with the argument that it's okay to house A with women because women rape women and men rape men, and I doubt that argument would get very far if A did in fact rape women with her penis while in the women's prison.
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Harlot Brontë
09/04/09

In reply to Where Should Jails House A Transsexual Prisoner?
Oh shit. I am so fervently glad this decision did not land on my desk. I would be passing the buck so fucking fast it would make the planet spin double-time on its axis.

I can barely decide whether I want Shreddies or Weetabix for breakfast - this one would be a nightmare for me, the patron saint of the indecisive. This case sounds like it belongs in a philosophy class, not in the real world, doesn't it?
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Chivone
09/04/09

In reply to Where Should Jails House A Transsexual Prisoner?
I don't get the problem. She should be housed with women as she is a woman and she should be in vulnerable housing any way because being anything other than cisgendered heterosexual can be very dangerous in prisons.
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schweppes
09/04/09

@Chivone: And under the law, she is a woman. It doesn't matter what crimes she committed, it doesn't matter whether she still has male genitalia, she is legally a woman. The end. no?
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NellMood
09/04/09

In reply to Where Should Jails House A Transsexual Prisoner?
I actually knew someone who was transitioning (male to female) and was sent to a men's prison. She was taking hormones at the time and was about a year into the transition. I remember getting a letter that she had been put in isolation, but after that I (purposefully) fell out of touch and don't know where she is now.
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milominderbinder
09/04/09

In reply to Where Should Jails House A Transsexual Prisoner?
Who is going to be paying for this surgery? I clicked through and it definitely states she is pre-op. That's what I'm wondering.
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aliasmisskat is kung fu fighing...
09/04/09

@milominderbinder: I believe gender re-assignment surgery is covered under NHS. Any Jezzie-Brits care to confirm?
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gherkinfiend promoted this comment Edited by aliasmisskat is kung fu fighing... at 09/04/09 4:04 PM

gherkinfiend
09/04/09

@aliasmisskat is kung fu fighing...: It is covered by NHS and there was a landmark ruling about non-urgent medical procedures for prisoners in the UK just this week.

[news.bbc.co.uk]
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cand86
09/04/09

In reply to Where Should Jails House A Transsexual Prisoner?
Yeah, the simple fact that men who rape men are kept in male prisons kind of makes the whole point moot for me.
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Soy-Bean
09/04/09

In reply to Where Should Jails House A Transsexual Prisoner?
Yes, women-born women CAN rape women. But, in this case, she DID attempt to rape a woman. I think that A's rights need to be weighed against the other prisoners (women's) rights - the State has a duty to protect them from harm, and I do believe that under these circumstances, the female prisoners' rights not to be assulted trump A's right to gender identity. And, just because men who have raped men are put in men's prisions, and because prision assult occurs often, does not excuse the State from taking action that would reasonably lead to or facilitate such violence.That said, had A's crime been grand larceny, I would totally support her right to live as a woman. But, her right to live as a woman does not trump other women's rights not to get assulted. And, according to the font of wisdom that is Law and Order: SVU, sex offenders are more likely to re-offend than many other criminals.
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morninggloria
09/04/09

@Soy-Bean: Very well said, with bonus points added for the SVU reference. Stabler would be proud of you. Proud, but conflicted, because that's just Stabler for you.
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palebluepixie
09/04/09

@Soy-Bean: I find it unsettling that it seems most here are assuming that sexual assault WILL HAPPEN in prison. It should not be that way.
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Penny
09/04/09

@Soy-Bean: The violent nature of the crime is really the sticking point for me as well.
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Penny
09/04/09

@palebluepixie: This has more to do with the way in which women are targeted (both in and out of prison) than the frequency of sexual assaults. Also....this particular person, you know, sexually assaulted someone!
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Edited by Penny at 09/04/09 4:13 PM Penny was starred Penny was unstarred

schweppes
09/04/09

@palebluepixie: EXACTLY. Why can't we demand more from our prisons rather than trying to assume that we can't keep people from raping people.
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schweppes
09/04/09

@Penny: are women targeted any more than men in prison? I don't know the answer to that question, but I wouldn't be surprised if men are assaulted at a far higher rate in prisons.
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Penny
09/04/09

@schweppes: But the concern around sexual assault is always an issue for women...
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Penny
09/04/09

@schweppes: But I'm not talking about prison. I am talking about women PERIOD.
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inabook
09/04/09

@Soy-Bean: So, what would you do with women who are born as women who rape other women? Stick them in a man's prison?
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wooden_shoes
09/04/09

@Soy-Bean: Ah yes, SUV, the pinnacle of recidivism information. The real facts are: "Sex offenders were less likely than non-sex offenders to be rearrested for any offense –– 43 percent of sex offenders versus 68 percent of non-sex offenders."

[www.ojp.usdoj.gov]
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Penny
09/04/09

@inabook: I would be curious to see how those women are handled in female prisons, actually. I mean, there are not many of them proportionately, so I am curious if they are segregated?
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schweppes
09/04/09

@Penny: Yeah, but this is about her prison placement. That's the only reason why I'm focusing on that.
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Penny
09/04/09

@schweppes: This is about prison placement as determined by SEX and violence. So, I think talking about how women are targeted is pretty relevant, don't you?
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schweppes
09/04/09

@Penny: I think I might be missing your point. I'm just framing this very specific to this situation, not how women are treated outside of prison all around the world. Which might be kinda relevant, but also muddies the discussion a lot.
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Penny
09/04/09

@schweppes: Well I am talking about a few things, for starters, I am speaking specifically to sexual violence, which A was convicted of. I am also talking about the fact that there are not many sexually violent female prisoners AND A committed the crime when she was male. I just don't think you can look at this particular situation without looking at the bigger picture, which makes sense because it seems to be setting a bit of a precedent.
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schweppes
09/04/09

@Penny: The precedent this is setting is actually adhering to the Gender Recognition Act. Maybe it's the lawyer in me, but that makes this a whole lot less complicated.
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Penny
09/04/09

@schweppes: Well, as I have said multiple times, I believe she should be put in a female prison because she was recognized as female. So, that's done and done, I am just talking about the details.
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schweppes
09/04/09

@Penny: I mean..... there can be no more details. She should be treated like a woman. Legally, they can't go through hoops to keep everyone else safe that treat her different on account of her gender switch. If they want to go ahead and segregate everyone who sexually assaulted women in the past, that's one thing. But without making a major organizational change, the details are pretty set in stone.
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gherkinfiend
09/04/09

@wooden_shoes: For me the crucial line there is ' less likely than non-sex offenders to be rearrested for any offense'

Not being arrested doesn't mean they are not re-offending. We've all seen the way the authorities dealt with Philip Garrido and we all know how the police often treat victims of sexual assault who are trying to report.

I don't have any statistics on recidivism to quote, but I just wanted to make that point.
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