When I first saw the good Primatologist's name, I couldn't help but wonder if Hortense had disemvoweled her!
On a more serious note: "...If Hrdy is right, a mother's need to care for her children, rather than conflict, is the driving force behind the development of the human species" gives me hope, especially after a day like today...
@La Chica Lucy: NOT TO MEAN THAT ALL WOMEN ASPIRE TO BE MOMMIES! I just liked the whole non-conflict part! For the record, I am 37-years-old, married, childless and fine with it.
I would say no. Animals have been known to adopt other baby animals - take the Jezebel post about the cat adopting the puppy. There are too many people who just don't really care about babies for it to be the "thing" that makes us human.
I am biased, though, because I'm one of the non-baby people, and I find the concept kinda insulting :(
I think that there are plenty of reasons people like babies, but I am always skeptical of "hardwired" arguments, because I just don't really think that such a concept can be applied to an entire group that contains such diversity. The way I see it, the one thing that should be biologically "hardwired" is the will to survive, right? Then how do people who commit suicide factor in? They're just "wrong" or something? Then I would argue that it's not "hardwired". Maybe I'm totally wrong here, but I would think that if there is existence of something that doesn't line up with that type of argument, it would defeat it.
So... reason number 99 I should feel horrible about not having kids. I'm not even contributing to the advancement of the human race. Interesting idea though.
@Tsar-Romanov: Nah. Only have kids if you want them, and don't feel guilty for a minute. You may have noticed that there are few breeders still out there, taking up the slack.
" the average population size during the hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution that preceded the Neolithic Age may have been around 2,000 breeding adults. "What would humans have been fighting over?" "
Um, I've been in groups of 5 humans and found things to fight over.
In hard times don't people either bond together or fight?
It seems simplistic to say "eh, there were only 2000 people. What would they fight over?"
People fight over everything and nothing from the time they are able.
Not saying she is wrong, she just seems very dismissive of the other point of view. Couldn't they both coexist?
@veronykah: From what I learned (from, admittedly, a political science rather than a natural science course) about Neolithic human organization, at that stage people were living in small kinship-based groups without any distinction between authority and were pretty much egalitarian (not having a permanent territory or large accumulations of food to protect and therefore fight about). It wasn't until chiefdoms began to emerge that people even had an idea of warfare (not that they had standing armies, anyway).
Groups of five people today and groups of five people in pre-domesticated wilderness are quite different.
@Lyesmith: yeah, but even contemporary hunter-gatherer communities fight. People steal lovers, people are jerks, they fight over resource territories. Most higher level primates fight, so I wouldn't assume that early modern humans didn't.
@wilmawonker: People who live in hunter gatherer cultures today are still really different from "small kinship-based groups without any distinction between authority and...pretty much egalitarian." It's the authority and egalitarian thing that makes the fighting, I think. Also, this is evolving homo sapien, not fully-formed human with the kind of self-identity we developed by the time we had language and stuff.
Didn't you people read A Swiftly Tilting Planet, for god's sake? Egalitarian communal societies without authority = you can see unicorns and everyone's happy.
Also, I see no picture accompanying this post on the front page (which has been the case on about 2/3 of the posts for the past two days for me - can someone remind me how to report a technical glitch?), so when I clicked through, I totally was not expecting Betty and Wilma. It was a little trippy.
@sciencerules: Who did you send the email to? I know we're supposed to include every bit of information that could possibly pertain to the problem, but I don't know who is supposed to be the recipient.
@ellaesther: It's been happening for me too. I emailed hortense a yesterday (?) and it hasn't changed. It happens for me every once in a while and I just wait it out.
@Miss Scarlett in the Hall with a Revolver.: Oh but that is so arduous! I am enough of this technological moment that having to take the time to complain in that fashion just makes me irritable. If your technology doesn't actually make things easier (say I to the world), then it isn't working. But then, I'm cranky.
The only thing that I can understand, related to this article, is the idea that women need to be around other women, relatives or otherwise, when raising their babes.
It is extremely difficult being on your own, raising a kiddo, without a solid support group of women. Your support network don't all need to be with child, themselves, but have to be in your corner.
It is virtually impossible to raise a kid in a vacuum. I have experience, believe me.
@rosasparks is entertained by bobby jindal: I agree 100%. I really think that isolation is the reason there is a rise in postpartum depression and stressed-out moms.
@rosasparks is entertained by bobby jindal: I can't believe I didn't reply to this before. (Actually, come to think of it, I think I was actually dealing with my kids, and that's why I didn't! Oh the irony!) I agree with you entirely. I think the support group can be of either gender, but if it's not there, everyone, but everyone, suffers.
It's a lie, this notion that one woman can raise children on her own. A lie, and a particularly pernicious one at that.
I saw a very fascinating documentary on dogs and cats that basically said that puppies and kittens are the ones that domesticated humans, not the other way around.
The only part I really disagree with is where she says our complex brains weren't the impetus for cooperation. Um excuse me the whole reason our babies are all underdeveloped and squishy is cause our heads are so dang big we could never give birth to a fully-cooked kid.
Ok, I even went to the Times article for help with this, to no avail:
How is her name pronounced?
And: It all makes sense to me -- even though I will admit that "it makes sense" is not exactly science -- so, the really kind of stunning notion was that the population up until the Neolithic Age "may have been around 2,000 breeding adults." That just blows my mind! I'm not sure what I thought -- if I even had a thought about it at all -- but still. My mind? Blown.
Well given that humans are the most underdeveloped species at birth, it seems like this would have to be true to a certain extent.
It also makes sense that families may have developed because men eventually realized that if they weren't around to help the mom (economically and otherwise) their children (and therefore genes) weren't going to survive. So the deadbeat dad model of procreation became an evolutionary fail.
@morninggloria: True, but we don't have handy pouches for carrying them around. Marsupials can schlep the kid around easier and might not need much help.
03/03/09
On a more serious note: "...If Hrdy is right, a mother's need to care for her children, rather than conflict, is the driving force behind the development of the human species" gives me hope, especially after a day like today...
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03/03/09
I am biased, though, because I'm one of the non-baby people, and I find the concept kinda insulting :(
I think that there are plenty of reasons people like babies, but I am always skeptical of "hardwired" arguments, because I just don't really think that such a concept can be applied to an entire group that contains such diversity. The way I see it, the one thing that should be biologically "hardwired" is the will to survive, right? Then how do people who commit suicide factor in? They're just "wrong" or something? Then I would argue that it's not "hardwired". Maybe I'm totally wrong here, but I would think that if there is existence of something that doesn't line up with that type of argument, it would defeat it.
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Um, I've been in groups of 5 humans and found things to fight over.
In hard times don't people either bond together or fight?
It seems simplistic to say "eh, there were only 2000 people. What would they fight over?"
People fight over everything and nothing from the time they are able.
Not saying she is wrong, she just seems very dismissive of the other point of view. Couldn't they both coexist?
03/03/09
Groups of five people today and groups of five people in pre-domesticated wilderness are quite different.
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Didn't you people read A Swiftly Tilting Planet, for god's sake? Egalitarian communal societies without authority = you can see unicorns and everyone's happy.
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Also: Yes, indeed, science rules. Yes it does.
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You can get to that by the "report a bug" link at the bottom of all the pages.
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It is extremely difficult being on your own, raising a kiddo, without a solid support group of women. Your support network don't all need to be with child, themselves, but have to be in your corner.
It is virtually impossible to raise a kid in a vacuum. I have experience, believe me.
03/03/09
03/03/09
It's a lie, this notion that one woman can raise children on her own. A lie, and a particularly pernicious one at that.
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Quite compelling, actually.
03/03/09
If I could birth kittens and puppies though, I'd be procreating my ass off!
Ugh nasty mental image though.
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How is her name pronounced?
And: It all makes sense to me -- even though I will admit that "it makes sense" is not exactly science -- so, the really kind of stunning notion was that the population up until the Neolithic Age "may have been around 2,000 breeding adults." That just blows my mind! I'm not sure what I thought -- if I even had a thought about it at all -- but still. My mind? Blown.
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How does one pronounce it, do you think?
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It also makes sense that families may have developed because men eventually realized that if they weren't around to help the mom (economically and otherwise) their children (and therefore genes) weren't going to survive. So the deadbeat dad model of procreation became an evolutionary fail.
03/03/09
03/04/09
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