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A Frank Discussion of Homophobia in the Middle East
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Antennapedia
09/18/09

In reply to A Frank Discussion of Homophobia in the Middle East
There's an odd second side to this issue. I spent some time living in the Middle East (Qatar) and I know gay people who say that it is actually easier to live as a gay man in a Muslim country. Male friendships are inherently more touchy-feely than in the US. Walking through a mall in Doha you're far more likely to see two men holding hands and talking than a married couple. This is a typical thing between straight men and nobody would think twice about a gay man holding hands with his lover in public because their being gay simply wouldn't be the first explanation that sprang to mind. Ironically enough, unmarried members of the opposite sex holding hands in public is a social no-no.

I'm certainly not saying that the persecution of gay people in the ME is right, but what we would see as stereotypical "gay" behavior between men wouldn't raise an eyebrow in many Muslim countries. If we look at it from that angle, I could begin to see how one might argue that Western influence has increased homophobia in these countries.
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Trulymadlyme
09/19/09

@Antennapedia: If we look at it from that angle, I could begin to see how one might argue that Western influence has increased homophobia in these countries.

Absolutely. There is something about viewing this issue through the lens of a Westerner that turns everything on its head. Men are more touchy feely with each other in public as are women with each other. That I witnessed myself in Abu Dhabi and Doha. Behavior that would get your ass beat down in 90 percent of this country is people openly practiced there.
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divine booty
09/18/09

In reply to A Frank Discussion of Homophobia in the Middle East
Muslim cultures have a deeper public/private divide than western cultures do. It's interesting to me that countries with more integrated public/private spheres (which happen to be the more secular ones) i.e. Egypt, Morocco are the places where homosexuals are seeing more violence. Homosexuals in countries/cultures with a more stringent separation of public/private spheres would not have a problem.

There's a lot more to this but I'm having trouble articulating it.
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kithkin
09/18/09

In reply to A Frank Discussion of Homophobia in the Middle East
The fact of the matter is that half of the laws across the world that prohibit homosexuality today are derived from a single law that the British enacted in India in 1860. "Many attitudes with regard to sexual morality that are thought to be identical to Islam owe a lot more to Queen Victoria than to the Koran," Rowson says.

This is quite easy to believe. However, I'm reluctant to chalk it all up to repressive Victorian attitudes about sexuality; this reading of the Lot story ties into "literal" translations of religious texts. The literal reading of religious texts is the cornerstone to fundamentalisms, and, cross-culturally, fundamentalisms rise in response to modernity. The influence of British culture, both in terms of repressive ideas about sexuality and in the introduction of Western modernity to various Islamic cultures likely gave rise to this religious interpretation.
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AndPreciousLittleofThat
09/18/09

In reply to A Frank Discussion of Homophobia in the Middle East
Forgive my ignorance, but when did the letters Q and I get appended to GLBT? And what do they stand for (assuming it's not "Qaran" and "Islam")?
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
09/18/09

@AndPreciousLittleofThat: Q stands for either (Gender) Queer or Questioning. I am not hip enough to know about the I.
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Edited by Zombie Ms. Skittles at 09/18/09 5:10 PM

lilbobbytables
09/18/09

@Zombie Ms. Skittles: I believe that I stands for Intersex
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Her Grace
09/18/09

@Zombie Ms. Skittles: When there is one Q, it's generally taken to mean 'queer'. Two Qs includes 'questioning'. The queer communities as a whole tend not to include 'questioning' because it's an impermanent state, by definition.
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morninggloria
09/18/09

In reply to A Frank Discussion of Homophobia in the Middle East
Teabaggers and the people they want to bomb agree: gays are bad.
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Maritsa
09/18/09

@morninggloria: Thirty Helens agree, too.
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funzette
09/18/09

In reply to A Frank Discussion of Homophobia in the Middle East
Thanks for this. Islam does not exist in a vacuum, and is not inherently more dangerous, violent, or extreme than any other religion. Islam as it's practiced today does not always look like it does in Saudi Arabia, Iran or Pakistan, variation in personal practices vary in these countries as well.

Fundamentalist religion has been a political and social tool for subjugation repeatedly in history. This rigid interpretation of Islam is no different. Islamic law, values and ethics, as interpreted in the 7th and 8th centuries, provided the foundation for the Renaissance. Same Quran, different interpretations.

My heart breaks for the men and women who are so persecuted.
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NickelMD
09/18/09

@funzette: "Islam does not exist in a vacuum, and is not inherently more dangerous, violent, or extreme than any other religion."

It depends on what you mean by Islam.

If you mean the books themselves, I agree: all the three major monos are pretty much equally bad.

If however you mean how these religions are practiced today (whether measuring by what the extreme ends believe or some mean/median) Islam is more inherently dangerous and violent than Judaism or Christianity from my perspective as a member of the LGBTIQ community.

Go to an average Christian or Jewish majority country and I might be condemned, shunned, and subject to harassment. My particular way of having sex might even be criminalized. Now go to your average majority Muslim country and the violence and discrimination may be the same or worse.... however if I get caught having sex with my partner, we could be imprisoned, flogged publicly, or even executed.

Sorry, but that is !=.
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Laulau
09/18/09

In reply to A Frank Discussion of Homophobia in the Middle East
Here's an ever-so-slightly off-topic question. Is there a more handy term than "LGBTQI"? (I'll admit, I've never seen the "I" added myself, but I think it makes a lot of sense. I often get a confused "Q?" when I say "LGBTQ".)

On the one hand, I like that the moniker points to the diversity of people included under it. On the other hand, it's just not easily sayable, and I feel like there are only more sexual permutations that we'll want to include as we go on.
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daftfad
09/18/09

@Laulau: I think it might be listed as LGBTQQI these days (queer, questioning, and intersex). And sometimes with an A on the end for ally. Some of my friends in the queer community lovingly refer to it as alphabet soup.
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Laulau
09/18/09

@daftfad: Alphabet soup, I love it!!! (But perhaps not so helpful in political contexts...)
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Kivrin
09/18/09

@Laulau: I vote for ABS: Anything But Straight.
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daftfad
09/18/09

@Kivrin: But where does that leave us straight allies? I want to join the party, too! :(
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Kivrin
09/18/09

@daftfad: Just call yourself a Girdle. (Because you support the ABS — get it?)

Man, I crack myself up.
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Lymed
09/18/09

@Laulau: Some people use the label "queer" but others are uncomfortable with the community taking back the term.
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angelheadedhipster
09/18/09

@Laulau: I use queer (as in "queer community" or "queer individuals") - I write for a gay website and writing out the whole alphabet over and over again can get tiresome. But I can also see how some wouldn't particularly care for the "reclaiming" of that term.
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Her Grace
09/18/09

@daftfad: The A is usually for 'asexual', not ally.
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Her Grace
09/18/09

@Laulau: I find starting with the G, not the L, helps. I never heard LGBT until I moved to Australia--it was always GLBT, which rolls off the tongue much more easily, I find. Starting with a harder consonant and all that.
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Her Grace
09/18/09

@daftfad: Can you not be an ally without coopting our terms for our (collective) self?
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Penny
09/18/09

In reply to A Frank Discussion of Homophobia in the Middle East
So, they're saying that Islam was virtually absent of homophobia before the influence of modern Western (I assume, Christian) influence in the 20th century? That seems pretty hard to believe. But, I'm not religious.
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funzette
09/18/09

@Penny: from what I understand, while the Quran has very similar passages to those found in the Old Testament (eg Lot, Sodom and Gomorrah), Islamic civilizations were pretty tolerant and sex-positive, and examples of gay imagery was found in lots of art forms. I don't think that anyone can claim that there wasn't homophobia (and sexism, lots of sexism), but certainly not at the levels we see now.

Politics, oil, tribalism, isolationism - you can't separate this stuff out from why interpretations of Islam have shifted so radically over the last 100 or so years.
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Penny
09/18/09

@funzette: Interesting, thanks.
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Rare Affinity
09/18/09

@Penny: Note how all the evils of the world are once again blamed on a woman!
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CherriSpryte
09/18/09

@Rare Affinity: Hooray for cross-cultural themes!
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JerseyGrrrl
09/18/09

@Rare Affinity: I would expect nothing less!!
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greeneyedfem
09/18/09

@Penny: It's more that the categories of "gay" and "straight" didn't exist, so homophobia as we know it today couldn't exist -- instead, people relied on sexual categories based on age, social role, and sex. So, from what I've read (and it's been a little while, so I might not have this 100% correct), it was similar to ancient Greece: most folks were okay with an older man getting it on with a younger man as long as the older man also had a wife and family and the younger man was assumed to grow up to acquire same. Things got sticky (ha!) if two men of the same age wanted to get it on, or if a man decided he only wanted to sleep with dudes and skip out on fulfilling his social role as husband/father/family patriarch.

Two books I recommend if you're really interested: Producing Desire: Changing Sexual Discourse in the Ottoman Middle East, 1500-1900 by Dror Ze'evi and Before Homosexuality in the Arab-Islamic World, 1500-1800 by Khaled El-Rouayheb.
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fishlikesequins
09/19/09

@funzette: Sex positive Islam! Lord, how I love reading comments after knocking back a few. The giggles, they just don't stop.
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Mafalda para Presidente promoted this comment Edited by fishlikesequins at 09/19/09 5:07 AM fishlikesequins was starred fishlikesequins was unstarred

Mafalda para Presidente
09/19/09

@fishlikesequins: I sent you a PM, by the way.
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inchworm
06/29/09

In reply to Pride Around The World
thanks for this, hortense.
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randomnessish
06/28/09

In reply to Pride Around The World
Is that...yes...it is...

LIZA MINNELLI. Oh gosh.

I'm very upset that I didn't have anyone to go to the NYC Pride March with.
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SharonTaint
06/28/09

In reply to Pride Around The World
I remember when I lived on Christopher Street and every year we'd make pitchers of margaritas, sit out on the deck and cheer the parade.

Good, good times.

I love you, Gays.
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bess marvin, girl detective
06/28/09

In reply to Pride Around The World
oh boo, WeHo's (Los Angeles) celebration was two weeks prior. everyone should have it on the same weekend.
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mariamariamaria
06/28/09

In reply to Pride Around The World
San Francisco Pride!

From sfgate.com

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HereComesMyBaby
06/28/09

In reply to Pride Around The World
Meretz shoutout in #5.
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Ailanthus-altissima
06/28/09

In reply to Pride Around The World
The photo of the two Israeli men with their arms swung sweetly and casually around each other is my favorite (though I really like all of them). That's how I walk with my sweetie.
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