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New York, 3:49 AM
Tue Dec 15
67 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of ceejeemcbeegee is not here ceejeemcbeegee is not here
    12/10/09

    In reply to Author Sapphire Responds To Precious Criticism
    The more Black folks complain about the airing of our dirty laundry, the less likely the laundry will ever get clean.
     Reply
    ceejeemcbeegee is not here was starred ceejeemcbeegee is not here was unstarred
    Image of whynotshesaid whynotshesaid
    12/10/09

    In reply to Author Sapphire Responds To Precious Criticism
    It is so unfortunate that so few movies are made about black people that the ones that ARE made have all this pressure on them to get everything exactly right.

    I think Precious/Push are very valid and important stories, but I also agree with the criticism that points out how often these narratives of abuse and poverty show up in Important Socially Aware Movies About Black People.

    It seems to me that the only resolution is to have more movies reflecting more experiences of more people. (And I don't mean movies that use white people as the narrative entrance point into a story about Others, i.e. The Blind Side.) No single artist should have bear the burden of telling the One True Story of a society, yet that is exactly what happens.
     Reply
    whynotshesaid was starred whynotshesaid was unstarred
    Image of Bunsen Honeydew Bunsen Honeydew
    12/10/09

    In reply to Author Sapphire Responds To Precious Criticism
    I don't understand why this is even a subject to discuss - these are the issues Sapphire saw in the world. From the little I've read about her, while Push wasn't autobiographical, it sounds like Sapphire had a somewhat dysfunctional start to life. If she's writing about people and situations she knew, then why should she have to sugar coat it simply because she is black? Did we get upset with Frank McCourt, who published a well known book the same year about downtrodden white people?
     Reply
    Bunsen Honeydew was starred Bunsen Honeydew was unstarred
    Image of SunburnedCounsel SunburnedCounsel
    12/10/09

    @Bunsen Honeydew: People got really, really upset at Frank McCourt, said he was exagerrating and lying and making the Irish look bad. I'm not saying your point isn't valid, but that it's not the right comparison.
     Reply
    SunburnedCounsel was starred SunburnedCounsel was unstarred
    Image of Bunsen Honeydew Bunsen Honeydew
    12/10/09

    @SunburnedCounsel: Okay, you know now that I think about it, I was like 10 when that book came out. Yeah, I should have found a contemporary example in order to not sound ignorant.

    Thanks for correcting me though, I would have hated to have said something like that at my holiday work party or something.
     Reply
    Bunsen Honeydew was starred Bunsen Honeydew was unstarred
    Image of SunburnedCounsel SunburnedCounsel
    12/10/09

    @Bunsen Honeydew: I'm sorry if I sounded snippy, I'm having tone issues on the internet today. But I was living in Ireland when Angela's Ashes came out and frankly, all hell broke loose with his siblings and "old family friends" and all sorts of nonsense. I think it's a pretty common response of "insiders" in a group wanting to protect their projected image to "outsiders", especially when complex media representations of your group are so rare. (We're drunk and Catholic, I get it already).
     Reply
    SunburnedCounsel was starred SunburnedCounsel was unstarred
    Image of Grim Reaper of the Forest Grim Reaper of the Forest
    12/10/09

    @SunburnedCounsel: But an interesting comparison, since the Irish have faced a lot of discrimination and stereotypes in the past, so perhaps there is the same pressure to not write something that gives fodder to the stereotypes.
     Reply
    Grim Reaper of the Forest was starred Grim Reaper of the Forest was unstarred
    Image of SunburnedCounsel SunburnedCounsel
    12/10/09

    @Grim Reaper of the Forest: Absolutely. And I think, as people mention down-thread, the fault does not lie in the authors who experienced or wrote about others in the minority group. Push and Angela's Ashes are both excellent books, and excellent stories. The question is why are these the books that the majority culture choses to publish and laud. Is it, consciously or subconsciously, because they reinforce the dominant narrative (and stereotypes) about the group? Are there amazing stories about a young middle class black woman struggling with college and parents not being published, or even not being written, because that is not what the dominant culture wants to market? Probably. No one in America wants to read about my happy, well-adjusted, somewhat hippiesh, non-Catholic upbringing in Ireland. But you want stories about my alcoholic brother who looks like a leprechaun and was born on March 17th? Those are the ones everyone wants to hear.
     Reply
    SunburnedCounsel was starred SunburnedCounsel was unstarred
    Image of Grim Reaper of the Forest Grim Reaper of the Forest
    12/10/09

    @SunburnedCounsel: Exactly. Although I sort of doubt that there is a market for memoirs about the minor struggles of the middle class, no matter what ethnic group. I think it has to be about incredible adversity or incredible success to sell, which is why you get people like James Frey exaggerating their life stories. But there is certainly a market for novels and movies about marriage or dating or coming of age for middle class white people, whether it is drama or comedy, and that sort of thing seems to be missing minority voices.

    #tips
     Reply
    Grim Reaper of the Forest was starred Grim Reaper of the Forest was unstarred
    Image of Bunsen Honeydew Bunsen Honeydew
    12/10/09

    @SunburnedCounsel: Oh, not snippy at all! Seriously, you pointed it out in a tactful way, and I appreciate it.
     Reply
    Bunsen Honeydew was starred Bunsen Honeydew was unstarred
    Image of Aesop's Foibles. YES. Aesop's Foibles. YES.
    12/10/09

    In reply to Author Sapphire Responds To Precious Criticism
    She's 100% right. Yes, what goes on in the story is heartbreaking, but it does happen, and that fact should not be shoved under the rug for supposedly demonizing anyone in particular. It never ocurred to me that her purpose was to paint a damning picture of black people in general, but to let the reader share in Precious' life, to expose the reader to a life so painfully different from his or her own. Man. That book will never leave me, that's for sure. I fell in love with Precious immediately and cried for her throughout the story, and I know for sure I'm not the only one who did either of those things while reading.

    ETA: It does happen *in all kinds of families, neighborhoods, tax brackets, etc.* Just realized I should have added that, since it's kind of the point of my comment.
     Reply
    Edited by Aesop's Foibles. YES. at 12/10/09 1:12 PM Aesop's Foibles. YES. was starred Aesop's Foibles. YES. was unstarred
    Image of thesciencegirl wields the truth like a mighty axe. thesciencegirl wields the truth like a mighty axe.
    12/10/09

    In reply to Author Sapphire Responds To Precious Criticism
    While I understand her reaction tot he criticism, I think the comparison to the Cosby family is false. Are there dysfunctional black families dealing with poverty, abuse, HIV/AIDS, etc? Yes, definitely, and I don't think that needs to be covered up. But are there also functional and/or middle class families (not that these 2 are always linked)? Yes. These also should be shown in popular culture because this aspect of black American culture is too often overlooked. I think there's space for both.
     Reply
    thesciencegirl wields the truth like a mighty axe. was starred thesciencegirl wields the truth like a mighty axe. was unstarred
    Image of sequined sequined
    12/10/09

    @thesciencegirl wields the truth like a mighty axe.: I agree, for sure. I think showing that there are a variety of people within every underrepresented group is important, and I think there's room for it to happen.

    On the other hand, I don't think it's necessarily any one author's job to do it single-handedly, you know?
     Reply
    sequined was starred sequined was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    12/10/09

    @thesciencegirl wields the truth like a mighty axe.: True story: my dad, who is an inveterate racist, hated The Cosby Show and wouldn't let me watch it because "no black people live like that! It's ridiculous!" I don't think he was alone in this opinion, either.

    All the more reason to have shows about black doctors and their well-adjusted families on every damn channel.
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of thesciencegirl wields the truth like a mighty axe. thesciencegirl wields the truth like a mighty axe.
    12/10/09

    @sequined: Oh, yeah, definitely not one author's job.
     Reply
    thesciencegirl wields the truth like a mighty axe. was starred thesciencegirl wields the truth like a mighty axe. was unstarred
    Image of ronniedobbs ronniedobbs
    12/10/09

    In reply to Author Sapphire Responds To Precious Criticism
    I haven't seen the movie yet, so I can only talk about this on a meta level, but I'm not comfortable with these Straw Blacks. The article doesn't point to an actual critique of the book/film, but rather the existence of one. So it's easy to take Sapphire's side on that one without any substantive commentary from the other side.

    But I'd be very interested to hear from people who have voiced that criticism. What I've gathered from the articles linked on Jezebel is that people of many races have a problem with it as being either "too cynical" or "too hopeful," but I haven't really heard news of black people getting up in arms about the depiction of the black family.

    If that kind of argument is out there, I'm sure it's one that points to how popular culture likes to focus on black pathology at the expense of three-dimensionality, which is in fact true. You can still have a problem with that while wanting to make sure people like the character Precious and her real-life counterparts get the help they need.
     Reply
    ronniedobbs was starred ronniedobbs was unstarred
    Image of Penny Penny
    12/10/09

    In reply to Author Sapphire Responds To Precious Criticism
    She's right.

    Also, on an unrelated note, she's 59?? She looks amazing if that's a current photo.
     Reply
    Penny was starred Penny was unstarred
    Image of Lymed Lymed
    12/10/09

    @Penny: That picture is Mariah Carey from the film.
     Reply
    Lymed was starred Lymed was unstarred
    Image of Penny Penny
    12/10/09

    @Lymed: I'm not talking about that photo. There's a photo of the author via the link above.
     Reply
    Penny was starred Penny was unstarred
    Image of Lymed Lymed
    12/10/09

    @Penny: Understand, and agree.
     Reply
    Lymed was starred Lymed was unstarred
    Image of cate3710 cate3710
    12/10/09

    @Lymed: Huh, it IS Mariah Carey. I didn't recognize her.
     Reply
    Edited by cate3710 at 12/10/09 12:56 PM cate3710 was starred cate3710 was unstarred
    Image of shorty63136 shorty63136
    12/10/09

    @Penny: Yeah, she is right. I mean, it'd be nice if everybody's family got along like the Cosby's (everybody - not just black families) but you can't just go sweeping stuff under the rug and expect it to be ok. There's a fine line between unnecessarily airing dirty laundry and talking about issues so that they can be remedied.

    Also - Holy Christmas, she does look amazing!

    I swear there's magic water out there that we don't know about.
     Reply
    shorty63136 was starred shorty63136 was unstarred
    Image of Rare Affinity Rare Affinity
    12/10/09

    @Penny: The author looks amazingly youthful if that is a recent picture. Mariah Carey by comparison looks odd, as if she has two balls of cottonwool stuffed into her cheeks.
     Reply
    Rare Affinity was starred Rare Affinity was unstarred
    Image of ♥AntiSocialSocialite♥ ♥AntiSocialSocialite♥
    12/08/09

    In reply to "What Does This Mean Financially?": Mo'Nique Is Not Pressed Over An Oscar
    I love Monique, but this is all very For Your Consideration and a bit presumptuous, considering no nominations have been announced.

    Preparing herself is one thing. Doing it so publicly MAY be a turn-off to the academy.
     Reply
    ♥AntiSocialSocialite♥ was starred ♥AntiSocialSocialite♥ was unstarred
    Image of ronniedobbs ronniedobbs
    12/08/09

    In reply to "What Does This Mean Financially?": Mo'Nique Is Not Pressed Over An Oscar
    I like that someone out there is watching BET so I don't have to, because I've actually been curious about her show.
     Reply
    ronniedobbs was starred ronniedobbs was unstarred
    Image of History Major History Major
    12/08/09

    @ronniedobbs: You're missing out it's actually a really good show. She states that her purpose for the show was to spotlight entertainers of color who don't get invited to go on The View, Good Morning America, Larry King Live, and other such shows to promote the work that they are doing in the field, and for that reason alone I tune in.
     Reply
    HistoricUpstart promoted this comment History Major was starred History Major was unstarred
    Image of rodmanstreet rodmanstreet
    12/08/09

    @History Major: Okay, okay. I'll watch.
     Reply
    rodmanstreet was starred rodmanstreet was unstarred
    Image of ArtfulSlinger ArtfulSlinger
    11/19/09

    In reply to Precious: "Fairy Tale" Or Film With "As Much Redeeming Social Value As A Porn Flick"?
    I can see where the criticism on Oprah is coming from, but I have to think that all the riches in the world can not take away the suffering she once went through as a young girl. She was sexually assaulted, pregnant and poor before age 16. I believe her quote is really expressing her own issues, that she now looks past the people that she once was, and thats a hard realization some times.
     Reply
    ArtfulSlinger was starred ArtfulSlinger was unstarred
    Image of Chandra Brandon Chandra Brandon
    11/18/09

    In reply to Precious: "Fairy Tale" Or Film With "As Much Redeeming Social Value As A Porn Flick"?
    Not trying to deviate from the topic of the thread (but I may be) nor pull a "reverse-racism" argument, but there are white people that experience poverty too...it's irritating to read comments and criticisms that are essentially attempting to justify reactions to the movie that are based solely on the racial identity of the viewer. Obviously one can't realistically compare being black and impoverished and white and impoverished, but it makes me irate that it is being suggested that this movie is just beyond comprehension for white people. Apparently all white people come from functional, 2 parent households, in wealthy suburbs. Also, Oprah does a shit load of good with her fortune.... I'm not an Oprah-phile, but I feel like no matter what she says, it's cynically received, what is the right thing for her to say in regards to this movie? (*Occasionally the cynicism deserved.)
     Reply
    philoclea promoted this comment Chandra Brandon was starred Chandra Brandon was unstarred
    Image of Slickanicka Slickanicka
    11/18/09

    In reply to Precious: "Fairy Tale" Or Film With "As Much Redeeming Social Value As A Porn Flick"?
    I found Milloy's review jarring and almost incoherent. My underlying thought was that he was embarrassed and angered in some way. Perhaps that the highest-profile movie about African Americans this year was one full of dysfunction.

    But, isn't that why people are saying this movie is refreshing---it is giving a voice to the abused who rarely get any attention? How many Gaby Sidibes have been on screen lately, or ever?

    So those who are upset that it doesn't represent the typical African American experience, isn't that kind of the point? Why do all of our films have to show only the best and brightest of our culture, why not share some time with real humanity and open up the worldview a bit?
     Reply
    whynotshesaid promoted this comment Slickanicka was starred Slickanicka was unstarred
    Image of whynotshesaid whynotshesaid
    11/19/09

    @Slickanicka: I have similar thoughts. I am having a very hard time thinking of movies that focused on the experiences of a poor, illiterate, abused teenage girl (of ANY race - let alone one who looks like Gaby Sidibe) because it is a story that so often goes untold. Yet we finally get one, and the criticism of it is unending.

    It's not that I think the movie should be above reproach simply because of its subject matter, but I think that people are getting so caught up in their critiques that they are forgetting just how monumental this movie truly is.

    Or maybe it's because this movie is so unlike much of what is out there that it's getting so much criticism, like it's the one chance to tell the story in a national way, and so it better be done perfectly? I don't know. All I know is that the venom puzzles me.
     Reply
    whynotshesaid was starred whynotshesaid was unstarred
    Image of Eric Northman is mine Eric Northman is mine
    11/18/09

    In reply to Precious: "Fairy Tale" Or Film With "As Much Redeeming Social Value As A Porn Flick"?
    "I really wanted to show a young woman who changes her life without falling in love and without getting married," Sapphire told me, "and without plastic surgery or a physical change."

    YES! I loathe movies where the female character's life changes for the better/improves mainly because she falls in love, gets married, loses weight, transforms into a beautiful swan. Basically these women have conformed to some societal ideal (be it beauty/relationship standards) and now they deserve to be happy.

    In terms of our pop culture (music, books, songs), I'd have to think have to think hard to come up with these kinds of example. I really love this message.
     Reply
    Eric Northman is mine was starred Eric Northman is mine was unstarred
    Image of RenoDakota RenoDakota
    11/18/09

    In reply to Precious: "Fairy Tale" Or Film With "As Much Redeeming Social Value As A Porn Flick"?
    I used to represent abused and neglected children in Chicago as a guardian ad litem. Many of the young women I represented were sexually abused. It always broke my heart when they were named Precious or Princess or Unique, because it was clear that their name was the only indication they'd ever gotten that they were any of those things.

    Unlike Precious, most of the girls I represented had nobody to mentor them or to encourage their talents.
    I don't know what causes Oprah donates to (except the school in Africa), but I wish that in addition to spending money to finance a film about a poverty-stricken, abused young woman, that she'd donate some money to Chicago programs that provide mentors to young women like Precious. (If she doesn't already.)

    I find it heartbreaking that she speaks of passing struggling young women while riding in her limo, in her own city, and yet she sinks money into a film about one such girl who overcame her circumstances with the help of mentors... without providing funding for programs to provide mentors to the girls she actually sees. Because I will tell you, my former fifteen year old client who was pregnant by a man in his late thirties who also gave her syphillis did NOT have a social worker or teacher who cared enough to guide her "to take concrete steps and work on her deficiencies and move her life forward."

    That said - Oprah can't save the world. But come on, Oprah. Film and other arts are important in raising awareness, but a program targeted to her own city would be more likely to inspire volunteerism and than to cause white America to gawk at black poverty.
     Reply
    philoclea promoted this comment RenoDakota was starred RenoDakota was unstarred
    Image of presumptuousinsect presumptuousinsect
    11/18/09

    In reply to Precious: "Fairy Tale" Or Film With "As Much Redeeming Social Value As A Porn Flick"?
    Fucking Oprah. She sees such women when she "rides by in her limo." Unbelievable.

    Oprah, do you remember carting out a wheelbarrow full of fat to show how wonderful you were after weight loss and how contemptible you were before it? Why don't you address that instead of reminding us all how rich and perceptive you are?
     Reply
    Beets.Go.On is the Fat Yogini approved this comment presumptuousinsect was starred presumptuousinsect was unstarred
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