I caught this show last night and found it very interesting. Portia described the differences between living together and marriage exactly the way, I, as a straight person, perceived it. They are two vastly different states of being.
I was very happy that they were legally bound, and can receive the same rights and privileges as hetero couples. They seem very much in love, although, truth be told, Ellen seemed to have a lot of therapy-speak mixed in. She seems to have lots more to work on. Portia seemed the more centered of the two, but maybe because she is not in the spotlight as much. That level of fame, esp. connected with the issues surrounding the couple, must be overpowering at times.
So, after like half-a-dozen times of Portia saying "My wife", Oprah asks, "So, you call each other wives?" Hehe. Usually I don't bandwagoneer on the Jezzie Oprah hate, but that was a dumb question. #oprahellenportiaderossi
@Ulookinatmyjunk, JOC: Eh, I think here she was clarifying it for the audience, who may not have so much exposure to gay couples. I've seen a lot of anti-gay propaganda showing gay men referring to their male partners as "my wife" in an attempt to be inflammatory and derogatory, so clearing up what married lesbians call each other is probably helpful to a lot of people. #oprahellenportiaderossi
All this comes down to is what marriage means to the general public. A declaration of love? God? Making it legal? The opportunity to have kids? Safety? Guarantees? Solidifying your love in front of those you love? Commitment? Finances?
Marriage means so many different things to so many different people.
Anyone uncomfortable with gay marriage is either 1) insecure in their own marriage or 2) has wrapped their entire identity around being a spouse.
Marriage is considered the ultimate validation of binary gender roles, and the goal of all gender conditioning. The entire belief in the infallibility of those gender roles, which is what allows the Patriarchal/Christian/Capitalist ideology to continue to hold power, rests on straight marriage remaining a cultural institution.
If gay marriage were legal & accepted in our culture, and forms of sexuality outside of heterosexuality were treated as equal (or even acknowledged as valid), all of that would be undermined. If being a lesbian is an accepted way of life, then culture doesn't tell a little girl she has to wear a dress when she doesn't want to. A four year old boy who speaks in a feminine voice isn't chastised until he changes it, if growing up to be gay is considered an option. Classes and sports don't have to be split along gender, and can't be, because it is acknowledged that you can't distinguish who is gay and who is straight or assume heterosexuality. So how do you deal with the locker rooms once you admit that members of the same sex may be attracted to one another? Starting from a young age, gender conditioning would become much more difficult and complex.
And if you can't program gender and start the inequality gap young, girls will be given the same opportunities in school as boys, and encouraged to succeed in what have been considered "boy" subjects. Neither gender will feel alienated from the other, which means that once they hit puberty, the straight ones among them will be able to pair off with less of the psychological damage that happens now, and less resentment or mischaracterization of the opposite sex.
Essentially, women will be treated as equals, and cease to be kept down by gender roles that condition them to be stupid, weak, insecure, accomodating, and less ambitious than men. Men will feel less pressure to be dominant, aggressive, competitive, and masculine, or to feel entitled or superior to women.
And that sense of the superiority and dominance of the masculine, and the servitude & nurturing nature of the feminine, is what Christianity is based on. God is the ultimate Man, and people are His servants (a feminine role in contrast). Next in line in the microcosm of that dynamic is the Husband, who is the God to his wife. The wife is stuck in the Mother role, having been convinced that it is her "biological nature" to have children & serve her family. Which distracts her and keeps her powerless, or as powerless as possible, socially, religiously, and politically.
Gender roles extend to almost every aspect of our lives in the world as it is now: We could think of our country as being masculine, and the world as being feminine. We control it, and it serves us, while other countries compete for use of it's life-giving systems and try to claim dominion over it.
In politics, the politicians are masculine, and the voters are feminine. The politicians define the rules and provide the resources, while the voters work within the politician's system and sustain it through their work, while always maintaining a sense of patriotism and commitment to the country that claims to give them everything that they have.
In our economy, the corporations are the men, and the consumers are the women. The corporations may be created by consumers, but they grow to become a set of entities that control the consumer, setting the standards, upholding and reflecting the cultural values and aesthetic, defining what the consumer's life experience is made up of, and providing the consumer with things they believe they need, as long as the consumer gives the corporation their time & money.
All of these things are accepted unquestioningly because the intrinsic nature of gender roles are taken for granted and assumed to be natural laws. If we legalized gay marriage, we would be admitting that the phenomenon of "gay" isn't a psychological illness, a sin, a form of sexual deviance, or a phase. We wouldn't be able to just deny it, ignore it, and exclude it's existence from our perception of reality. We would be forced to face sexuality and actually see it. Right now it's so ingrained in our every action that we're mostly not even aware of it (and those that are, are probably feminists). Gay marriage would offer a contrast & we would have an opportunity to realize how much of our life is not a universal experience like we assumed, but something specific to us, and something that has a cause, and an alternative.
It would be like seeing someone fly, and realizing that it isn't that youcan't fly because humans can't fly and that's just the way it is, but that you possibly could fly, you've just never tried because you had been told so plainly, so many times, that it was impossible, and you never thought to try. Right now, it's like there are stories of people flying, and most of us know someone who can do it or who has seen it done, but either they're mistaken, or lying, or those people who can fly are using machines to do it, or there is something morally suspect to them & they can't be trusted. So that it happens doesn't seem to matter because it doesn't have anything to do with us. But if our government suddenly told us that those people really were flying, that it was natural and legitimate, and that they were guaranteed the right to fly just as much as the rest of us are guaranteed the right to walk, then suddenly, it does apply to you. And the entire system is revealed to be built on a lie.
Not only would it fall apart naturally, but once people realized they had been held back, limited, and lied to, and realized the power and freedom they actually had, they'd be pissed off at anyone who tried to control them again. Anti Gay Marriage people know that the lifestyle they live and love is in direct contrast with the fact of homosexuality. They know they're full of shit, but they're comfortable that way. They need everyone else to believe that they are illegitimate, powerless, and seperated from society as a whole, "real" society, because their way of life is so delicately balanced on denial and condemnation of anything that challenges their idiology that it would have nothing to stand on if any other way of viewing reality were considered a possibility.
I'm very sorry that this is so long.
But I've wondered for a really long time what the fuck these people are thinking, because it never seemed to make ANY logical sense. But I think that this is it, and if we can understand it, we can do something about it, because reason doesn't work, and most of them will overlook the constitution and basic human decency when it comes to gay rights so there really isn't hope of an argument that will convince them. The only thing we can do is strike at the vein & try to understand what's underlying the seemingly absurd things these people say & do to protect their paradigm... #oprahellenportiaderossi
@prismatism: I don't have much to add to that, but living in Maine, I've thought about this a lot too. I do think that marriage somehow validates people as being adults, or stable, contributing members of society. I don't know if these people secretly hate marriage and the only thing they are getting out of it is the pleasure of being validated, but given that I've heard the refrain of "making a mockery of marriage" obviously marriage is much more to them then the relationship with their spouse. It is their relationship to society (I guess a superior one) which is somehow being threatened. I'm married myself, and I just don't get it. However, I am also convinced that a whole lot of it is simply hatred of gay people and not being able to stand that gay people would be accepted. Not just tolerated, but allowed to stand on that exalted pedestal of marriage that straight people see as theirs. #oprahellenportiaderossi
These two just radiate love. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would want to hinder that kind of commitment and love from flourishing. #oprahellenportiaderossi
It is vital that they're allowed to marry. I'm currently learning about family law in SC, and the benefits that marriage bring are numerous. There is of course the overall acceptance of society in addition to full legal rights like those associated with wills, health insurance, tax benefits, and when necessary, equitable division of assets in a divorce. That said, SC's laws state three times in different places about no couples of the same gender, and ever since DOMA passed there has been a law prohibiting extension of the right to marry to gays and lesbians of SC. I suppose that it's not surprising at all, but seeing it staring up at me, mocking me almost, made me even more furious about the current situation in our country. There is just no justification for this kind of treatment. I hope these two and others keep making noise and we get to real equality soon. #oprahellenportiaderossi
Thank you for posting this, Tracie! I've been looking online for it everywhere this evening, and I knew Jez would have it.
I kind of love the Ellen/Oprah crossover - I feel like they're kind of in the same boat in terms of winning over segments of the American public you might not expect given their sexual/racial identities. Good stuff. #oprahellenportiaderossi
This was one of the most beautiful interviews I'd ever seen. I think they are such a fantastic couple and it's great that they are constantly willing to stand up and say, "This is us. This is my wife. This is the woman I love. There is nothing wrong with this." #oprahellenportiaderossi
Wow, their relationship is absolutely beautiful. What lovely, talented people. I'm so glad they are happy!
I don't understand why people aren't supportive of other people being happy and in love. Is there something wrong with their mirror neurons so they can't feel empathy or something? #oprahellenportiaderossi
This makes me all gooey and squinty because it's so what I want in a relationship. The love should overcome the fear, whether it's fear of rejection or fear of what it means to be honest and open about your feelings.
Whatever your sexual orientation, you go through those feelings and you hope for a result like theirs. I sure do anyway. #oprahellenportiaderossi
I once watched the clip Ellen put on her show of their wedding and it brought me to tears. It was beautiful, and everything that a wedding should be. It was about the love of the two people getting married, and the life they want to build together.
How anyone could think this is a danger to marriage is beyond me. I just don't understand that. #oprahellenportiaderossi
Oooh I love these two. Separately, they both make me laugh, and together, they make me "awww" and hope for a future marriage as awesome as theirs. #oprahellenportiaderossi
I don't know you guys. My marriage feels threatened by this display. What if I think it's hot and decide to get gay married too? It'll be bedlam! #oprahellenportiaderossi
@J.D.Regent: I'm calling a divorce attorney as we speak!!!1! I think Ellen was making eyes at me, and I totally imagined gay sex with her! This is, like, totally ruining the sanctimony of my marriage. I'll never be the same! #oprahellenportiaderossi
@J.D.Regent: I totally feel like my marriage has been devalued! I mean if those two totally awesome, smart, talented, and attractive ladies can get married, then opposite marriage is, like, worthless! #oprahellenportiaderossi
@GirlFailer: I don't know if you meant to do this, but "sanctimony" for "sanctity" in that context is the most appropriate Freudian slip EVER. #oprahellenportiaderossi
@Maritsa: Absolutely not. What? Does this mean you don't love your husband? If your marriage is not special to you then maybe you should be worried more about your own than Ellen & Portia's! #oprahellenportiaderossi
Sure Gene, I bet Mick Jagger, Keith Richards, Steven Tyler, Jerry Lee Lewis, Ozzy Osborne, Eric Clapton, Carlos Santana, Stevie Nicks and everyone else that's been around since the 50s, 60s or 70s would perhaps disagree with you, well except for the sex part.
11/10/09
I was very happy that they were legally bound, and can receive the same rights and privileges as hetero couples. They seem very much in love, although, truth be told, Ellen seemed to have a lot of therapy-speak mixed in. She seems to have lots more to work on. Portia seemed the more centered of the two, but maybe because she is not in the spotlight as much. That level of fame, esp. connected with the issues surrounding the couple, must be overpowering at times.
Give me fortune instead if fame any time.
11/10/09
11/10/09
11/10/09
11/10/09
Marriage means so many different things to so many different people.
Anyone uncomfortable with gay marriage is either 1) insecure in their own marriage or 2) has wrapped their entire identity around being a spouse.
Or, they just take the Bible way, WAY too seriously. #oprahellenportiaderossi
11/10/09
Marriage is considered the ultimate validation of binary gender roles, and the goal of all gender conditioning. The entire belief in the infallibility of those gender roles, which is what allows the Patriarchal/Christian/Capitalist ideology to continue to hold power, rests on straight marriage remaining a cultural institution.
If gay marriage were legal & accepted in our culture, and forms of sexuality outside of heterosexuality were treated as equal (or even acknowledged as valid), all of that would be undermined. If being a lesbian is an accepted way of life, then culture doesn't tell a little girl she has to wear a dress when she doesn't want to. A four year old boy who speaks in a feminine voice isn't chastised until he changes it, if growing up to be gay is considered an option. Classes and sports don't have to be split along gender, and can't be, because it is acknowledged that you can't distinguish who is gay and who is straight or assume heterosexuality. So how do you deal with the locker rooms once you admit that members of the same sex may be attracted to one another? Starting from a young age, gender conditioning would become much more difficult and complex.
And if you can't program gender and start the inequality gap young, girls will be given the same opportunities in school as boys, and encouraged to succeed in what have been considered "boy" subjects. Neither gender will feel alienated from the other, which means that once they hit puberty, the straight ones among them will be able to pair off with less of the psychological damage that happens now, and less resentment or mischaracterization of the opposite sex.
Essentially, women will be treated as equals, and cease to be kept down by gender roles that condition them to be stupid, weak, insecure, accomodating, and less ambitious than men. Men will feel less pressure to be dominant, aggressive, competitive, and masculine, or to feel entitled or superior to women.
And that sense of the superiority and dominance of the masculine, and the servitude & nurturing nature of the feminine, is what Christianity is based on. God is the ultimate Man, and people are His servants (a feminine role in contrast). Next in line in the microcosm of that dynamic is the Husband, who is the God to his wife. The wife is stuck in the Mother role, having been convinced that it is her "biological nature" to have children & serve her family. Which distracts her and keeps her powerless, or as powerless as possible, socially, religiously, and politically.
Gender roles extend to almost every aspect of our lives in the world as it is now: We could think of our country as being masculine, and the world as being feminine. We control it, and it serves us, while other countries compete for use of it's life-giving systems and try to claim dominion over it.
In politics, the politicians are masculine, and the voters are feminine. The politicians define the rules and provide the resources, while the voters work within the politician's system and sustain it through their work, while always maintaining a sense of patriotism and commitment to the country that claims to give them everything that they have.
In our economy, the corporations are the men, and the consumers are the women. The corporations may be created by consumers, but they grow to become a set of entities that control the consumer, setting the standards, upholding and reflecting the cultural values and aesthetic, defining what the consumer's life experience is made up of, and providing the consumer with things they believe they need, as long as the consumer gives the corporation their time & money.
All of these things are accepted unquestioningly because the intrinsic nature of gender roles are taken for granted and assumed to be natural laws. If we legalized gay marriage, we would be admitting that the phenomenon of "gay" isn't a psychological illness, a sin, a form of sexual deviance, or a phase. We wouldn't be able to just deny it, ignore it, and exclude it's existence from our perception of reality. We would be forced to face sexuality and actually see it. Right now it's so ingrained in our every action that we're mostly not even aware of it (and those that are, are probably feminists). Gay marriage would offer a contrast & we would have an opportunity to realize how much of our life is not a universal experience like we assumed, but something specific to us, and something that has a cause, and an alternative.
It would be like seeing someone fly, and realizing that it isn't that you can't fly because humans can't fly and that's just the way it is, but that you possibly could fly, you've just never tried because you had been told so plainly, so many times, that it was impossible, and you never thought to try. Right now, it's like there are stories of people flying, and most of us know someone who can do it or who has seen it done, but either they're mistaken, or lying, or those people who can fly are using machines to do it, or there is something morally suspect to them & they can't be trusted. So that it happens doesn't seem to matter because it doesn't have anything to do with us. But if our government suddenly told us that those people really were flying, that it was natural and legitimate, and that they were guaranteed the right to fly just as much as the rest of us are guaranteed the right to walk, then suddenly, it does apply to you. And the entire system is revealed to be built on a lie.
Not only would it fall apart naturally, but once people realized they had been held back, limited, and lied to, and realized the power and freedom they actually had, they'd be pissed off at anyone who tried to control them again. Anti Gay Marriage people know that the lifestyle they live and love is in direct contrast with the fact of homosexuality. They know they're full of shit, but they're comfortable that way. They need everyone else to believe that they are illegitimate, powerless, and seperated from society as a whole, "real" society, because their way of life is so delicately balanced on denial and condemnation of anything that challenges their idiology that it would have nothing to stand on if any other way of viewing reality were considered a possibility.
I'm very sorry that this is so long.
But I've wondered for a really long time what the fuck these people are thinking, because it never seemed to make ANY logical sense. But I think that this is it, and if we can understand it, we can do something about it, because reason doesn't work, and most of them will overlook the constitution and basic human decency when it comes to gay rights so there really isn't hope of an argument that will convince them. The only thing we can do is strike at the vein & try to understand what's underlying the seemingly absurd things these people say & do to protect their paradigm... #oprahellenportiaderossi
11/10/09
11/10/09
11/13/09
11/10/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
I kind of love the Ellen/Oprah crossover - I feel like they're kind of in the same boat in terms of winning over segments of the American public you might not expect given their sexual/racial identities. Good stuff. #oprahellenportiaderossi
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
I don't understand why people aren't supportive of other people being happy and in love. Is there something wrong with their mirror neurons so they can't feel empathy or something? #oprahellenportiaderossi
11/09/09
Whatever your sexual orientation, you go through those feelings and you hope for a result like theirs. I sure do anyway. #oprahellenportiaderossi
11/09/09
How anyone could think this is a danger to marriage is beyond me. I just don't understand that. #oprahellenportiaderossi
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
Feigned piety or righteousness; hypocritical devoutness or high-mindedness
(It was one of the 5 "big" words that I am familiar with. It seemed appropriate to use it.)
11/09/09
Think of Portia! #oprahellenportiaderossi
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
10/10/09