Jezebel 
Enter your username and password.
New York, 11:00 AM
Thu Nov 26
64 posts in the last 24 hours
Tip your editors:
tips@jezebel.com
Editor-in-Chief:
Anna Holmes
Email | Twitter
Deputy Editor:
Dodai Stewart
Email | Twitter
Senior Contributing Editor:
Tracie Egan
Email | Twitter
Contributing Editors:
Anna North
Email | Twitter
Sadie Stein
Email | Twitter
Reporter:
Irin Carmon
Email | Twitter
Editorial Assistant:
Margaret Hartmann
Email | Twitter
Contributors:
Rich Juzwiak
Email | Twitter
Latoya Peterson
Email
Jenna Sauers
Email
Lizzie Skurnick
Email
Interns:
Katy Kelleher
Twitter
Original material is licensed under a Creative Commons License permitting non-commercial sharing with attribution.
11/06/09
Particularly when the complaints are about something that if the genders were reversed, girls wouldn't care at all. A guy comments on a girls appearance, and it is sexist, a girl comments on a guys appearance, and it is fine.
A guy tells a girl he wants to jump her bones, its extremely rude and sexist, a girl tells a random guy she wants to jump his bones, and most guys will be flattered!
Cat-calls? If girls called out to me about my looks when I went by I would be....flattered! If a girl slapped me on my ass, I would find it hilarious!
There are absolutely things where women and men are not equal and that is a problem, but the vast majority of the time that I see feminists speak up about something, it is an issue which is a complete double-standard if it was a girl doing it rather than a guy. This just makes people bitter and frustrated.
If feminists were a little more relaxed about the things that many guys are relaxed about, it would be easier to focus on feminist issues that ACTUALLY MATTER. #feminism
11/06/09
Fearing for my safety is a serious issue. It ACTUALLY MATTERS. #feminism
11/06/09
You can't know what a person approaching or passing you (or in this case behind you) is going to do, so the only way you can avoid this is by avoiding men in general.
And once it has happened, how is reacting negatively going to help protect your safety? In fact, knowing how some men behave, reacting negatively will just goad them on. Laughing it off is far more likely to make for a completely harmless situation, while calling them out on it is far more likely to get you in trouble and will do little to change their ways.
Furthermore that doesn't even apply to cat calls. A guy driving by and honking or going "Nice!" is endangering you? Hardly.
Lastly, you ignored the major point of my comment and instead attacked an example I used to illustrate my point.
See what I mean about giving feminism a bad name? #feminism
11/06/09
Firstly, you've suggested that the things that feminists get upset about are not an issue when the roles are reversed, so let's tackle this issue:
This comes down to (a) polite, respectful behaviour and (b) the performance of masculinity and femininity.
So point (a) is, regardless of whether you (or society) feel offended when when a woman objectifies a man, it doesn't change the fact that it is just plain rude. It reduces an autonomous Subject to the position of Object. My point is that it doesn't matter who it is that is objectifying, who it is that is asserting their status as subject in relation to the (other) object or who it is who is denied their basic right to a human identity: to do this in the first place is rude and disrespectful, it is not funny or charming, it is demeaning. That doesn't mean that feminists don't do it, hell, that doesn't mean that *I* don't do it, but I, and many other people - whether they identify as feminists or not - are conscious of affording this basic respect. As such we *try* (and sometimes fail) to treat other people with the basic modicum of decency that we except for ourselves.
Point (b), the performance of gender, can of course apply to a whole lot of other social performances, however it effectively is a discussion of social power, performing dominance and subordination. Basic Aristotelian philosophy elucidates on the notion of dichotomies and how they frame our thinking. It's acknowledged that these dichotomies operate in a hierarchical fashion, with one term in the pair (term A) dominating the other (term Not A) - we assign values to these terms: light/dark, day/night, masculine/feminine. As such when people "subvert" these paradigms, we are made conscious of them, and possibly evaluate them more. By way of example, I would ask you to think about how you, or other people you know, would react when other factors are also subverted. For example, it might be cute (albeit disrespectful) when some sweet, young thing pinches your behind and shimmies off onto the dance floor. How would you react if she was, simply put, much larger than you, performing a masculinity beyond objectification - one that incorporates the "is she a she, or a he?" In my experience, a lot of "masculine" men are threatened by this. Let's take this a step further - what if it was a man who pinched your behind and blew a kiss? The fact is that this behaviour is negitively responded to (by men) and perceived as threatening. This is why courts accepted Homosexual Panic and Homosexual Advance defences to murder and assault for so long (if you want specifics on these cases, send me a message and I can provide you with case law, legislative responses and other studies). So the short point is yes, this behaviour is threatening, it impinges on the physical autonomy of the individual targeted, it is a demonstration of social dominance - I can touch you without your permission (this is commonly known as "assault", by the way) and you are unable to respond to this in any socially sanctioned way that is deemed reasonable but proportionate.
Autonomy, physical integrity and plain old fashioned respect are feminist issues that matter.
If you do want to continue this discussion, I'd be happy to explain further. #feminism
11/08/09
11/08/09
A: I generally agree, and this is why I don't randomly slap girls on their butts or make cat calls (I too find this behavior stupid), but there are people out there who enjoy being objectified (male and female alike) so one can't generalize these things or make absolute statements about them.
Which brings me back to my original statement. How one reacts to a behavior is often what defines that behavior. If someone is annoying you, complaining is giving them the reaction they want (the guys who slap asses expect an angry reaction most of the time, they often like it), instead ignoring them or laughing it off takes the power away from them, and throws them off balance. You aren't going to stop a guy from slapping another ass by yelling at him.
B: I am a straight guy who is often approached and hit on by gay men. I find it flattering. I know many men are bothered by it, but I am not because I am comfortable with my sexuality. I just laugh it off, turn them down if they are insistent, and that's that. Hell, I have a gay friend who I met when he hit on me. I have even been approached on the street by a guy thinking I was a male prostitute (which is really odd since I wasn't dressed in any manner suggesting that)! I found it HILARIOUS. And so did he. Most girls I know would have been furious. This also all applies to "people larger than me" as you politely put it. I just don't care because I am not interested, and I don't give them a hard time about it because I know someone else out there might be waiting for them to do exactly that.
If a gay guy pinches my ass and I am bothered by that, it is as much my fault as his. So I choose not to be bothered by it, and everyone is happier! When you flip out out at someone, you are not changing their mind, you are simply confirming the stereotype they have of people who don't respond well to such advances.
To wrap up, I absolutely agree that such behavior is rude and stupid, but one's response to such behavior is also stupid if one pointlessly gets angry, and in some cases can even be harmful to one's self, or one's cause.
Thank you again, for responding to me politely and thoughtfully. #feminism
11/05/09
Pro-choice: "Life continues after birth." #feminism
11/05/09
"Yes," quoth I, "how dare she be unappealing to you."
Har har har, laughs all around.
"Because," I continued, deciding that the pot had not been sufficiently stirred, "that is all women are good for, after all."
Uncomfortable stares, quiet chuckles, followed by uncomfortable silence, broken by my boyfriend, who said, "Uh oh. We have a feminist in the room."
"Actually, honey," I said, "there are two feminists in the room."
"Right," he said, "Because I'm one too, right?"
"Right."
You know what? I made those boys uncomfortable. And they may hesitate to hang out around again. But I am so glad that I said something instead of sitting there quietly and remonstrating with my sweetie about it later. If those boys are too uncomfortable to hang out with me, it's their loss. My peace of mind is worth the lack of their company. #feminism
11/06/09
11/06/09
;) #feminism
11/05/09
An example is a friend updated his facebook status to say "twilight is porn for women." to which I replied: "because all women like twilight, and no women like to watch porn..."
His response was "Lydia, no... it's funny" and that was it. So I said "Only a little sexist."
I know it's stupid, but I feel like every time I call out a friend who says something sexist they laugh it off like I'm overreacting and making mountains out of mole hills. It's annoying, because I know they don't realize they're being sexist. And if they do they don't care, or they're doing it on purpose just to piss me off.
I don't understand how they could be so careless about suppressing an entire population of people. Especially because they go to church and claim to be compassionate Christians.
11/05/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
I don't think he meant any harm by his statement, particularly since I have heard many women say similar things about the show!
As a guy, I am going to find a girl far more worthy of my respect if she can handle humor which isn't as clean cut and boring as possible. If you draw the line as close as possible to you, then you are making people constantly tip-toe around you, even when they mean no insult (and the majority of the people around them don't take it as insulting, and I bet most women don't find that statement insulting at all). How does this help you or your cause? #feminism
11/06/09
Correct. The idea is, rather than create an offensive/defensive dynamic (i.e., he is behaving offensively, and you are responding defensively) which ALWAYS results in failure for the party on the defensive, you have "taken tempo," or seized control of the argument and forced him to respond on the defensive, thereby weakening his position and creating a situation in which "idiotic patriarchy" is no longer the norm from which people deviate.
Of course he didn't mean any harm, but in what way is that pertinent? Public shame is a bio-psychological system that allows society to train human beings to not behave like morons. If you do not take advantage of it to train people to not behave like idiots?
Besides that, why should the awarding of your respect be a relevant consideration? The very fact that you are evaluating the situation according to whether or not you would respect a woman for appreciating your sense of humor, rather than according to whether or not a woman would lose respect for you for making a stupid joke, indicates that your paradigm is completely off-kilter. #feminism
11/06/09
What you and she are doing does more harm to feminism than just laughing along with him at how silly people get over Twilight.
I don't base my respect on women solely on how they take a joke, but I do find a woman who can take a harmless joke to be much cooler than one who starts throwing insults or calling every little thing "sexist".
There is ABSOLUTELY sexism out there, and it can be awful, but this is not sexism, and it is not of any benefit to you to call him out on it. And knowing guys, it actually makes feminists look worse in their eyes, because we don't call girls out every time they make a possibly sexist comment.
I am not saying "never respond" or always "laugh it off", I am saying you are drawing the line WAY too close and harming yourself in the process. #feminism
11/05/09
So I have come to interpret "pro-life" as decidedly death seeking. Those two words together now make me shudder. And I have a wariness about Christianity because of it's close association with "pro-lifers". (Are there pro-lifers who are not Christians?) #feminism
11/05/09
11/05/09
I am pro-choice, and pro-life. I believe that the possibility of a new life should never, ever take precedence over the autonomy of an existing, established one. #feminism
11/05/09
11/05/09
Blah. I can't stand the far right. #feminism
11/05/09
11/05/09
11/06/09
11/05/09
11/05/09
This is why my grandmother prays for me all the time. She's worried I'm going to hell. #feminism
11/05/09
11/05/09
11/05/09
11/05/09
I could go on. I'm old enough to remember the battles we waged to be allowed to wear trousers to work. #feminism
11/05/09
11/05/09
11/05/09
Re: Feminism being a "dirty word". My first exposure to the term was in a Spice Girls autobiography book (called Girl Power) or something, when I was 9-10 years old. There was a big block quite from one of the girls (Geri I believe) that said, "Feminism has become a dirty word now, girl power is a new way of saying it" or something like that. I had NO IDEA what feminism meant or was, so I thought "dirty word" = "curse word" and I would hide that page of the book from people whenever I was reading it in public so they didn't think I was reading something naughty. Now that I look back on it, I think that book planted the seeds of feminism in me, even if I thought it was a swear word. #feminism
11/05/09
It will be good. #feminism
11/05/09
So many women and men appear (by their actions--or more exactly, lack of action) content with where western culture stands today. So many women seem cowed by "feminism"-shaming into accepting that they're equal, when all signs point to the contrary. So many people seem to think things are good enough or to not appreciate how much better they could be. We're lacking consensus about what the next issues are and so we're kind of stuck in this dialogue of sex liberation and little else.
Men were content to give us our quasi-sexual liberation (They get laid more!) and happy to forgo chivalry (Cheaper! They can keep their seats on the train!). But what about the things that seem increasingly to recede in the future: Equal pay. Real help for working mothers. Equality in domestic tasks.
We're at a point at which losing the right to choice seems not impossible. And where is the mass consciousness among women? We're all taking our husbands names and neglecting to vote instead of being thankful every day for where we are and being aware of how much further we have to go.
Ok, not you. But maybe some of the women you know. The ones who make you feel like a caricature for wondering why you're worth less. #feminism
11/05/09
The language itself makes me feel like most people think feminism is unnecessary and that equality has been achieved.
I know it's a loaded term and I might not be using it properly, but I just can't accept it, use it or like it. #feminism
11/05/09
11/05/09
It's as ludicrous as it would be to say "post-civil-rights era," which I believe was briefly tried after Obama's inauguration. Having your head in the sand must be comfortable.
11/05/09
A big problem comes when things are too often discussed in theory, without enough women and girls talking about how these everyday issues actually affect us personally. I know just being on this site every day for over a year now and reading the posts and comments has opened my already-feminist eyes to the inequalities we still face.
It's similar to how some people are totally homophobic until they discover that someone they know and love is GLB or T. Suddenly it clicks that these are real people, not just theoretical characters.
11/05/09
I got on my feminist soapbox and was like, "Don't apologize for yourselves. Women are judged based on what they wear in a way that men aren't. Women have to adjust their clothing for slight differences in the atmosphere of restaurants and locations, men have basically 3-4 options and don't have to worry about being judged for their clothes and appearances the way women do, so please don't apologize for this because it isn't you fault, and dad you need to shut up because it's not them as much as the world they live in." My mom, who hates that I'm a feminist, and her cousin were basically looking at me like, "...yeah. Yeah!"
So I've found that the best way to talk about feminism is to talk about what it means to be a woman, especially for women who are hostile to the concept of feminism--my mom, for instance, is vehemently anti-abortion, so feminism means baby-killing to her. This isn't the first time I've done stuff like this with her--talking about how she is more frustrated than my dad because her options are more limited than his, she was always expected to be a 100% mother and 100% worker, when that was impossible, and how she is judged by the way her house looks in a way my dad isn't--hell, she's judged on the way my father looks in a way that he isn't. I know my mother frequently feels like she's going crazy, and is sad, and is frustrated, because of her gender. But she can't express or acknowledge that right now. So trying to accept her for who she is, trying to allow her to recognize that her frustrations aren't her own personal problem but are understandable, is a good way to be a feminist.
Another version of this is telling women that they are not crazy when they say that they are crazy, like "I know it's crazy to expect my boyfriend to call me when he decides not to come over instead of just not showing up, and I don't want to be the crazy girlfriend who needs him to call me all the time, but it's so sad when I get all ready and he doesn't show." Or something. I try to say things like, "That's not crazy, you just want him to respect you. I hate this bullshit "crazy woman" narrative in which all emotions, especially women's emotions, are called crazy, which just delegitimizes women's feelings and thoughts." That response has also led me to be the secret keeper for lots of women, like "I have to tell you a secret about the time(s) I was raped." Women are so frequently dismissed that refusing to dismiss them is a radical feminist act. #feminism
11/05/09
@Cimorene: This might be the single favorite thing I've ever read here. YOU ARE AWESOME. #feminism
11/05/09
11/05/09
I want to shout that from the rooftops, slap it on a bumpersticker, splash it across the evening news. #feminism
11/05/09
11/05/09
11/05/09
I am a very quick packer. I've packer for month long trips in an hour. The reason I don't snark on women who take much longer to pack isn't the patriarchy, its because it is an asshole move. Not calling is again an asshole move.
I think a lot of this stuff plays into gender, but I tend to put the gender issues second to the rudeness. Not because the gender issues don't matter but because independent of gender some things are just dick. #feminism
11/05/09
* In an alternate universe where I have no impulse control or aversion to needles, of course. #feminism
11/05/09
It can get so bad that in many cases a woman actually believes that she is or is going crazy. It's referred to as "Gaslighting," after the 1930s movie of the same name. It's a very effective way of keeping women controlled, "in their place" and disrespected by culture at large. #feminism
11/05/09
The thing is that gender is so often removed from the equation when one just takes on "rudeness" or whatever, and so it larger cultural trends. This is a behavior that is so often attributed to women that to ignore the fact that gender is part of the equation when my father talks about it is to gloss over the fact that lots of behavior--and therefore the value attribution of said behavior--is inflected by gender.
It's like, my father gets pissed that my mother takes a long time to pack. Besides the fact that why does he even care, he definitely uses it as a "Oh, women!" attitude, in which women are irrationally obsessed with what they wear when men don't care what women or men wear. Pointing out that my father is being rude doesn't change my mother's own ambivalent or shameful understanding of her own relationship with her clothes, because then it's just about him being an ass. My mother obsesses about what she wears in large part because she's a woman, and is therefore judged by how she dresses far more than a man, and because she's fat, and is therefore shamed if she dresses in a way that doesn't downplay her weight. And not just shamed by other people, shamed by herself. But my father, just as fat as my mom, doesn't care, because his body isn't a political space on which gender and weight-related issues are getting played out.
So my mother not only feels anxious about what she wears and how she looks, which makes her obsess about her clothes, she also feels bad about feeling anxious about it and even worse about obsessing over her clothes, because that's supposedly an irrational behavior. Except it's not, if you're a woman, because you're right to think that you're going to be judged based on how you look. Much of our culture is structured around women being judged based on their bodies. So it's important to point out to my mom that she shouldn't feel bad, because her obsession/anxiety does not exist in a vacuum, it isn't just her that has this behavior, and my father isn't just being an ass, he's being an ass in a very specific, gendered way. To focus just on his assiness is to ignore the fact that his behavior is caused by and perpetuates gender stereotypes and value judgments. It's kind of like why calling someone an asshole or some other non-gendered, raced word, is less offensive than calling someone a n*gger, cunt, fag, dyke, etc. Because those words have a history, and the weight of a bigoted culture behind them, in a way that calling someone an asshole doesn't. Calling someone a [bigoted slur] is a dickish thing to do, but it's more than that, because it's part of a larger system in which individual dickishness is almost beside the point, because it becomes part of a culture that perpetuates this bigotry. #feminism
11/05/09