Jezebel 
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New York, 2:36 AM
Mon Dec 21
19 posts in the last 24 hours
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12/12/09
12/11/09
Yes, domestic violence against women is a serious issue, and much worse than a barroom brawl between two drunken males.
Okay, platitude over, disclaimer issued, now we can blame---not the guy who sexually harassed your friend, whatever her history, which might, you know, have had something to do with her reaction---but the real problem makers here: women who just insist that there is a context for acts of violence against women, and that there is no such thing as violence against women that occurs in a vacuum.
The last line of this piece is both a defense of the guy who actually threw the punch---on top of the harassment, which is evidently no big deal-----and a restatement of that beloved myth of MRAs and others: "Men just won't hit women." Or, as in this case, "I just can't hit a woman."
Fancy anybody having a problem with this stew.
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12/11/09
I die.
Seriously, I wanted to dig this guy's point of view, because it is true that ALL violence is a crime if the MTV message people want to get technical, but shit - you walk up to a group of guys "squaring off" with your female friend and THAT isn't the part that strikes you? A group of men that will physically square off a girl who just nacho'd them (oooh, scarring!) is just fucking nuts.
Am I supposed to feel sorry for the men involved that they couldn't just punish this woman they would have punished another man? Perhaps another man wouldn't have been in put in the situation in the first place because strangers wouldn't be commenting on his tits.
12/11/09
He apologized for her. He apologized for her to men who'd done something so awful that it sounds like she flipped out---and that wasn't what bugged him! No, it was the guys! He wanted to placate the guys! And he knew that Head Guy just couldn't punch a woman, of course. Because guys who are such big assholes totally wouldn't do anything physical. Also, it's kind of funny we never find out about the woman, seeing as how she's a 'friend'.
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You would think that it wouldn't need to be pointed out, but when there's more than one guy against one woman, it's kind of threatening. But the writer doesn't display any concern for her. She was terribly upset but he treats her like she was a puppy who shit on the carpet and offended the important people---the men whom he's so sure wouldn't hit a woman. Uh huh. Because three big strong men squaring off against one woman isn't threatening at all.
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I don't think you're getting the point of the post, but whatever, you're clearly not willing to evaluate anything from an objective standard.
12/12/09
The point of this post is that it's depressing how much some people will lean over backward to excuse every damned fool thing any body with a penis says, and that some of those people---depressingly enough----are women. "Rah rah rah we like dicks!" is not a particularly feminist statement, especially when the damned post itself whines about an incident where one guy punched another guy after the first guy---and his buddies----did something to a girl that left her shaken, in tears, and swearing. But nobody gives a shit about that.
12/11/09
Also, thanks for that super patronizing "Now, you'll not ever get me to say or agree with the wrongheaded Mad Lib that is 'If women want equality, then...'" Sorry to inform you, but by bringing it up you implicitly said it. It's the same old tired bullshit spouted by faux empathizers who are unable to experience things from the point of view of the group they're trying to engage with, but still try to step in and throw their two cents on the table anyway and negate/preempt the experiences of the group that initially had the fucking issue.
That's the exact same thing that we Jezzies get slammed for a lot - i.e a cisgender trying to equate a transgender experience to themselves or something that they've experienced, or the whole debate that sprung up like last week over the black Barbies when Latoya detailed exactly why she hates writing race posts for Jezebel, and so on and so forth.
Quite simply, you CAN'T make the experiences the same, or say you know where we're coming from, because you aren't from the same group and can't live the same experiences. That's why it's patronizing for you to come here and say that we're hypocritical to be so upset over careless off-the-cuff male-on-female violence. You're a man. You're not a woman, who has grown up in a rape culture where men think it's hilarious when a woman gets hit in the face and says "haha bitch totally got what she deserved! Hit her again, bro!" Or when that man's father tries to defend his son's actions with the same "she deserved it; she was aggressive!" tired old rhetoric that we see Every. Fucking. Time.
So yes. Snooki is more fucking precious than you are. Yes, you got hit in a bar defending your female friend, and that was a horrible experience for you to go through and I am extremely sorry. But have you ever been degraded in a bar, or on the street, or ANYWHERE, by a group of men just because you have tits or a vagina? Have you ever been put into uncomfortable sexual (or violent) situations because you're physically smaller and less able to defend yourself? Have you ever been afraid that if you were abused, you wouldn't be able to do anything about it, either by fighting back during or reporting it after? No? That's why Snooki, and any violence against a female by a male, is more precious than your experiences. Because the effort for this to stop has to start somewhere.
12/11/09
So, it seemed like the point of this essay was to reject the well-supported concept that institutionalized male violence, and the threat of it, doesn't work against women in the public sphere any more that it does men, and also to pretend that many of us here support violence against men.
But then, by the end of it, Cord is "almost certain" that his attack was a notable form of gendered violence, that he was targeted because he was a man and that his friend was in no danger because the jackasses would not hit a woman.
For one thing, why step in? Maybe Cord feels now that it was a mistake to put himself between them, he doesn't say.
For another, what makes him think that a gang of men would target a woman sitting alone for harassment, but would be too chivalrous to hit her, especially if she fought back?
Men like to bring up the rules of chivalry as a special privilege held by women, as if they are laws of the universe that we know can't be broken. The thing about chivalry, though, is that it's predicated on its being optional for men to exercise. And to maintain female gratitude for it, requires men to hit and threaten women quite a bit.
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Is there a word or phrase for this rhetorical sleight of hand? Bringing something up without having to take responsibility for it by saying how gracious you are not to bring it up?
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Hitting is never ok. I absolutely hate it when my brother starts talking about wanting to beat up another guy for staring at him in a way he didn't like or something equally ridiculous. To me it's macho crap and quite frankly guys that talk like that lose a lot of points in my book. I cringed when I saw a woman punch a guy with every bit of strength she could muster in the Jersey Shore trailer. It was not ok and it's difficult to think of any situation that could have justified it. It's like the story in the post. Was it really necessary for the author's friend to dump nachos over complete strangers because she didn't like what they said? Yes, they were to blame, but her response was hardly rational and we all know what it lead to.
Respect should go both ways and violence is never the answer.
12/11/09
12/11/09
As to the rest of the argument, I understand what you're saying and agree for the most part with it. I simply can't get on board with many people's view that hitting women is always worse than hitting men. If someone sees a couple fighting and the woman tries to punch the guy and he shoves her, you can bet a lot of people would find him at fault for touching her. If the situation were reversed, it would be a whole other story. Of course there's a majority of cases when the aggression towards women is worse, I'm not denying that. What I'm getting at is that in some cases women seem to get a free pass when the issue of violence arises.
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I've always wondered whether laws apply to performers on reality shows. What would happen if a group of people on Survivor decide to kill a few of their competitors? Is there police nearby? Did they break any laws? I mean it's just for the viewers, right? All the fights you see, this is the first time I heard of a reality show character being charged with assault.
And that last point is what really gets on my nerves. Had he clocked the man standing next to Sookie, there would have been no charges laid, no outcry. Had he assaulted the bartender, it would have all been "in good sport" and great television. But suddenly, with this punch a line has been crossed. Don't reality show stars sign some sort of disclaimer that any number of painful, scarring an unpleasant things may happen to them because of the show but they aren't allowed to complain because that's the point?
Violence against men is considered ok, provided that the man doesn't suffer permanent disability. But a broken arm, or dozens of stitches, it's all part of "being a man." Violence on the part of a man against a woman is regarded with such disproportionate contempt compared to every other kind of violence that one really has to wonder...
As for your specific case, I'm so sorry you went through that. The saddest thing is that if you hadn't shown up, I'd say that the chance the guy would have hit your friend is about one in five. He was really angry with her. But as soon as you showed up, he had someone it was ok to hit and he did. There wasn't a moment's consideration in his mind if it was ok to hit you. You were a man. It's ok for a man to hit a man.
I'm not in favor of hitting women. I think it's horrible and inappropriate. But hitting is hitting, and it makes no difference if it is a man or woman or child giving or receiving the blow.
12/11/09
Women did not create this reality, just so you know. I'll say it again, you cannot blame women for fighting against a paradigm based on bullshit. Women will not blame you for doing the same. But then we have to ask, and you have to ask yourselves: what ARE you doing to change it? Are you attacking the source? That does not appear to be the case with articles such as this. It appears, from this article, the way of going about it is to whine about how women have some kind of gender-based privilege in situations like this. Sure that is true. (And men by and large won't get raped in their lifetime. We all have our problems with this status quo.) But what does identifying that truth DO about this? Does it take care of the problem, or it this just to kvetch?
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And for the record, my personal addage is that if I have the balls to physically attack a man, I better be able to back it up when he comes after me (i have a taser and i'm not afraid to use it). If I don't then I better figure out a better way to handle the situation, whether it be walking away, calling the cops, or hiring someone to deal with it! (I jest on that last one, I promise)
12/11/09
Look, you simply cannot avoid a fact about what many of the commenters here are saying: that men in some sense are more "appropriate" victims of violence than women. And that sucks. It really does. Consider the posts about the male victim of domestic violence, where-- yes-- some of the people here railing against this post did indeed make light of domestic violence. It is disgusting-- disgusting-- to read people say that a man punching a man at a bar is better than any alternative because of a "cultural framework" of violence against men. I believe there is a cultural framework of violence against women in a lot of places, and that's exactly what we're fighting against.
At some point, almost all of these comments attacking the very idea of this post operate on the same flawed argument, turning the discussion away from whether men somehow deserve violence to saying "which is more likely," "which is more common," "which is more painful." Of course, we must fight violence against women, and if you'd care to look, this is one of perhaps a half-dozen posts even referencing violence against men at this website in the last year. Meanwhile, not a day goes by here without multiple posts about violence against women, and thank god for that. But here, were we are talking about violence against men, it would be nice to be able to actually talk about that for one moment without the screams of women who insist that even doing so is some insult to womankind.
And, I'm sorry, but this is simply true: many commenters here are seeing a man ask some very important questions about feminism and about our attitudes towards violence, and immediately losing their shit. There's not even a consideration of the possibility that, maybe, this is something worth talking about, instead of shaming people for even having the gall to bring it up. You cannot tell me that people here aren't offended by just bringing up the fact that violence against men is a huge problem, and that people of conscience need to fight it.
I'm tired of the pretense that I am necessarily disadvantaged in how dedicated of a feminist I am because I'm a man. I will not back down from this: I am as committed a feminist as anyone in this comment thread, I am absolutely dedicated to eradicating violence against women, AND I think this post badly needed to be written on this blog.
Me? I'm a big guy. And I've never hit a woman, and I've never hit a man. I'm as proud of the latter as I am of the former.
My brother, meanwhile, is 5'6, 125 pounds, and has been sick his whole life. It's been a genuine struggle for him to survive. He doesn't have this fantasy "muscle mass" that people posting here seems to act as a shield and as an excuse for any man getting beaten senseless. And he had nothing to protect him when he was nearly beaten to death two years ago because he had the misfortune to step on the wrong person's shoes.
Now what I want to know is, would you proud, proud people have knelt down next to his bleeding and broken body and as gleefully and unapologetically invoked the "massive historical and cultural context" as you are here?
12/11/09
that men in some sense are more "appropriate" victims of violence than women.
It would be----if anybody were saying that.
It is disgusting-- disgusting-- to read people say that a man punching a man at a bar is better than any alternative because of a "cultural framework" of violence against men. I believe there is a cultural framework of violence against women in a lot of places, and that's exactly what we're fighting against.
Repeating a lie twice does't make it true. But it's mighty white of you to acknowledgment that maybe, just maybe, women are being murdered en masse like no other group in history, something that needed your oh so feminist validation before we could be permitted to discuss it.
Of course, we must fight violence against women, and if you'd care to look, this is one of perhaps a half-dozen posts even referencing violence against men at this website in the last year.
Oh, of course we do. Wink, wink, nudge nudge.
Meanwhile, not a day goes by here without multiple posts about violence against women, and thank god for that.
And----Yeah, wow, gratitude.
But here, were we are talking about violence against men, it would be nice to be able to actually talk about that for one moment without the screams of women who insist that even doing so is some insult to womankind.
God, those UPPITY BITCHES, they're NOT putting men first and foremost in their lives!
God, do you even read what you wrote there? If you're a male feminist, all us women are totally fucked.
And your brother is different?! OMG, how awful! Because using an exception doesn't invalidate the basic reality, you know. Men are bigger than women. Stronger. Seriously, there's an exception here and there but you don't seem motivated by feminism here ----it's all about bashing the bitches. There's no tactful way to say this, but ---why is this relevant? You do realize your brother got treated like a woman, right? And that apparently, you're pissed that he got treated like a woman and so it's womens' job to---what, fix it?
Now what I want to know is, would you proud, proud people have knelt down next to his bleeding and broken body and as gleefully and unapologetically invoked the "massive historical and cultural context" as you are here?
Want some nails for that cross?
You can stop protesting your oh-so-feminist bona-fides, by the way. If you really were a feminist, you wouldn't have to tell us.
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Um, dude? If you're so almighty fuckin' feminist, you'd have a goddamned clue about the online history of this trope. You don't. So much for that much-vaunted feminism of yours.
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In a way I agree that sometimes when we break it down we get so involved in whichever one strikes a cord in us that we forget about the other kind. I admit until recently I had never given much thought about male on male violence because it wasn't something I had to deal with. I think as much as some people are complaining that he is acting privileged and not acknowledging or giving enough credence to how much more oppressed women have been by violence its like hearing two sides to the same argument. I do not deny as a woman there is a lot working against me but I think it doesn’t help the situation to lump all situations involving men together and insist it has less weight. It should all have weight and unless we start recognizing men in our fight to equality there will never be equality.
The title should have been thought out a little better "Why is Snooki more precious then I am?" but poor wording does not invalidate a point and as much as I love Jezebel sometime we all get so caught up on words that the greater picture is lost. I'll admit, and I know I can only speak for myself, I was originally more horrified that a man hit a women then if it was a man hitting another man. One can argue Cord was probably bigger then his female friend but can we really argue the punch he received (lets not argue if he was in the right to have intervened, right now that’s not the point) was lessened because he was male? In a fight with a man vs. a woman it is usually understood she is less likely to emerge the victor. But in a fight with a man vs. a man it is less clear cut but that doesn’t make it balanced. I have a decent amount of muscle and I have male friends that are most certainly way out of shape and never thrown a punch in their life. I can't say in a fight they would come out of it better then I simply because they are male. In a fight it has more to do with familiarity with fighting then size. Roles are starting to be a little more broken down and if we truly want a world where there is not stigma for a little girl to play football with the boys and the little boy who wants to play pretend can pick up a Barbie and have a fun time without anyone thinking of what it means we have to start thinking outside our own female box too.
12/11/09
I hate it that men, even smart, compassionate ones, only notice the binds of the patriarchy when they turn on men. I've run into this with my younger brothers, when they express frustration about certain societal expectations that they feel they can't meet. I point out that the patriarchy can hurt men, too, because it is an unfair system that doesn't treat people as individuals, just as archetypes. And you're SOL if you don't fit in.
But, I hate it that certain men didn't notice or care when the patriarchy has been hurting women this whole time. It wasn't a problem until it started to affect them, and then suddenly, they appeal to us women for help in dismantling the system they just noticed. Why is there not a wider appeal to other men? Why is it feminism's job alone?
I would posit that this is also based in the old standards. Women aren't supposed to be selfish, right? We're supposed to take care of others, and not put ourselves first. If we are selfish, then we are unfeminine and unnatural.
I just feel like articles like this are appealing to this concern, this historical concept of woman as fixer and healer of others, which is probably so deeply ingrained in us that we don't even see it. And that's really galling, because it's using a tool of the patriarchy in an effort to rouse us against the patriarchy.
It pisses me off, the more I think of it.
12/11/09
YES! Thank you. It is exactly this frustrating chasm of understanding/empathy that allows things like sexual assault to thrive. It is not an intentional ignorance, but it's a subliminal, lazy logic of "If it doesn't happen to me I won't take the time to examine it. I've got important stuff to do." Granted, women are guilty of the same as the author asserts. But instead of lingering on why women get "preferable treatment" as Cord says his friend did, it is much more productive to get to the root of the problem. I think some acknowledgment is in order that violence is overwhelmingly an epidemic in men, that toward women it involves some particularly insidious forms of belittlement, and that women take whatever defenses they can-- sometimes in the not-so-intelligent form of dumped trays. Cord was collateral damage in a situation involving a serious form of fucked-upedness. Not to downplay the consequences, but the problem here is not allocated to the right source. It's not his friend's actions, it is the brute force of the men and their primitive defending of their egos in the face of not getting away with sexually belittling his friend.
12/11/09
OMG! I knew it was opposite day.
Actually, in courts of law and most society, when a man or woman has committed a heinously violent crime, judges and juries are TWICE as likely to forgive a man for their crime. This is because it is perceived that "boys will be boys" and men all have this demon lurking inside them just waiting for some bitch to nag it out of them. It's not their fault - she drove him to it. Whereas with women, they are typically viewed, simply, as imbalanced or insane. Whether or not a woman retaliated in reaction to physical and mental abuse, she's just batshit crazy. Oh, I mean, bitch done "Snapped!" It's really, really insulting to both/all genders.
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Wait. Has it been proven that Nordegren actually did something? BEcause so far it just looks like a bunch of sexist websites gleefully making shit up.
Also, there's been any number of horrifying cases where men have gotten off with slap on the wrist for murder of their wives. Keith or Kenneth Partridge or Peacock got eighteen months after he found his wife cheating. But here's the thing; it wasn't a crime of passion. He left the g uy go, thought about it for a while, fought with his wife, then hours later killed her. The judge sympathized with him. Tracy Thurman complained to the cops many many times about her husband Charles, against whom she had a restraining order, but Charles ran a coffee shop that the local PD liked, so while they literally drank his coffee and ate his donuts he'd talk about killing the bitch. During his final assault on her, the cops refused to get invovled because after all, it was his house and property, even when he chased Tracy around and beat her. Only when he attacked her again while the ambulance crew was trying to load her into the vehicle did the cops ever so reluctantly intervene.
And of course there's OJ. Far from being the victim of a racist conspiracy, the police department had coddled him for years.
Check our Ann Jones "Next Time She'll be Dead" if you want backup on that.
12/13/09
Did you mean to respond @lodown: ?