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The New York Times Gets The Wage Gap Wrong
Harriet Harman Wants English Women To Make More Money

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sybann
03/02/09

In reply to The New York Times Gets The Wage Gap Wrong
This also doesn't explain why those of us that eschew family for career still get screwed over.
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rmric0.wedding.photographer.and.manny
03/02/09

In reply to The New York Times Gets The Wage Gap Wrong
I mean, they chose to be women right?
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Miss Smith Drank Your Vodka
03/02/09

In reply to The New York Times Gets The Wage Gap Wrong
What about the choices that are presented to women?

I know after college, many women went into admin asst positions or non-profit orgs, with the aspirations of learning more about the profession and working their way up.

Many of my male colleagues went right into project jobs, consultants, etc. I don't even know where to begin to look for these jobs. I was taught to start with the clerical and admin jobs when searching through classifieds. My all-female college, while great in most aspects, was seriously lacking in the after-college career field, unless you wanted to (or had the means to) continue straight into grad school.

The job fairs that featured employers in consulting or jobs where projects would be featured were never held at our school.

So now I am a bit miffed as to what to search for. Do I stick with Admin jobs, where I learn alot but am still kept at a lower pay grade?
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Maulleigh
03/02/09

In reply to The New York Times Gets The Wage Gap Wrong
Maybe women are more willing to take the salary offer on the table; men are more likely to get all primate over a bidding war. Just a crackpot theory.
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Miss Smith Drank Your Vodka
03/02/09

@Maulleigh: I've heard that theory too. Major element though - the offer on the table is generally lower for woman, even before the bidding wars.
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SunburnedCounsel
03/02/09

@Maulleigh:1) In jobs where this is a possibility, women have often been conditioned and taught not to be the ball-buster or firm negotiator. Not always, but often. This shit does not happen in a vacuum.
2) This does not explain the wage desparity in jobs where there is no salary or wage or benefit negotiation.
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Plum-Pie
03/02/09

@Maulleigh: Yes - women see fewer situations as opportunities to negotiate. Women are conditioned to 'play by the rules' in the work place and also to value our relationships with our colleagues to the point of not 'upsetting' them by asking for more. Learn to negotiate. Know your market value.
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Grim Reaper of the Forest
03/02/09

In reply to The New York Times Gets The Wage Gap Wrong
I read this piece yesterday and was very confused. She is arguing for and against discrimination as a reason to explain the gap and didn't back up her conclusions very well. And I found the graphic confusing. Pffftp!!!!
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Miss Smith Drank Your Vodka
03/02/09

@Grim Reaper of the Forest: Graphics and math are hard!
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gobblegirl
03/02/09

In reply to The New York Times Gets The Wage Gap Wrong
Wow. This is bad journalism. Straight up.
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kelsium
03/02/09

In reply to The New York Times Gets The Wage Gap Wrong
Here is the other thing: even if women get into a field like neurosurgery or upper level management if they, like most ladies, are viewed by their male superiors as "pre-pregnant" they are not promoted or given major responsibilities for fear they will eventually "choose" to be the primary caregiver.
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brinkswomanship
03/02/09

@kelsium: I am so adding pre-pregnant to my vocabulary. Thank you!
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HuckleberryFriend
03/02/09

@kelsium: I just started a job where I replaced someone who left to have a baby, and my boss joked yesterday "You're doing a great job, just don't get pregnant!" Sigh.
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PeculiarPearl
03/02/09

@kelsium: This stuff makes me so mad... at my last job I was actually asked if I planned to get pregnat any time soon. ... Is that something that a boss can ask you?
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arodriguez.romero
03/02/09

@PeculiarPearl: NO! and not anything about your religion either
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rednrowdy
03/02/09

In reply to The New York Times Gets The Wage Gap Wrong
If you're not catching it, "personal choices" is code for "entering and leaving the work force for children"...

how about the very impersonal choice of caring for a sick parent or relative who can't afford a nursing home or an at-home health care nurse? talk about a 24 hour job that really takes 36 hours and having wade through all of the medicare/gap insurance/doctors/nurses/social workers just to get some kind of continuity of care for your loved ones who are terminally ill through no active fault of their own other than, y'know, just aging.

wait - i guess that's considered a personal choice, too, since a person can choose to take care of their sick parents or relatives or can choose to leave them out on the street.
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kelsium
03/02/09

@rednrowdy: I would hazard a guess based purely on anecdotal evidence that, except in families that only have male children, a daughter is most often the person making this "choice."
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Green Goth Brit Chick - AlternatEve
03/02/09

@rednrowdy: I was once told that caring for my parner was a choice. I could "choose" to "love" someone who wasn't disabled.

... HOW I didn't rip them a new one I don't know.
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trublusu
03/02/09

In reply to The New York Times Gets The Wage Gap Wrong
If women didn't take care of the kids, then who would? The men? ha, ha, ha
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AuntieBee
03/02/09

@trublusu: No, no. They would simply engineer children to spring fully formed from their fathers foreheads. Just like Zeus when he had Athena! And then he went right back to work while Athena starting kicking ass.
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SarahMC
03/02/09

In reply to The New York Times Gets The Wage Gap Wrong
*THE PERSONAL IS POLITICAL*
*THE PERSONAL IS POLITICAL*
*THE PERSONAL IS POLITICAL*
*THE PERSONAL IS POLITICAL*
*THE PERSONAL IS POLITICAL*
*THE PERSONAL IS POLITICAL*
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Eric Northman is mine
03/02/09

@SarahMC: lol that phrase was often repeated in my studies in women and gender course. sighhh, i miss college.
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BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit)
03/02/09

In reply to The New York Times Gets The Wage Gap Wrong
Well, I know how to combat this. I choose to have my husband make and gestate the bebeh when it comes time. Done! Wheeeee sweet equality for me!
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KittyKittyCat
03/02/09

@BrutallyHonestZombies: And I will choose to have a maid, cook, nanny, and gardener to do ALL of my chores and take care of the bebeh once the hubby has gestated it. Problem solved!
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ceejeemcbeegee is not here
03/02/09

In reply to The New York Times Gets The Wage Gap Wrong
Women didn't choose to earn less any more than they chose to be women.
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kelsium
03/02/09

@ceejeemcbeegee: We were "asking for it." Didn't you know? I put in a pre-conception petition for a vag. Isn't that how it works?
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Hamsterpants
03/02/09

@ceejeemcbeegee: @kelsium: Stupid girls, with their low-paying vaginas. Next time, go for the gonads!
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AuntieBee
03/02/09

In reply to The New York Times Gets The Wage Gap Wrong
Is she playing dumb? When she asked "But why do men who are bus drivers or insurance agents, jobs with similar numbers of men and women, earn more money than their female counterparts?" I suddenly wondered if she was trying to do that thing where you lead your audience to make the conclusion you want them to without coming right out and saying it. [smarter jezzies help a bish out and tell me if there is a word for that plz]

I am probably giving her too much credit.
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arodriguez.romero
03/02/09

In reply to The New York Times Gets The Wage Gap Wrong
This kind of discrimination, altho obvs. here on this board, is not obvs. to others. That's why we get these badly thought out articles in the NY Times.

There's a lot of work left to be done in the field of awareness. Sometimes it all feels overwhelming.
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Hamsterpants
03/02/09

In reply to The New York Times Gets The Wage Gap Wrong
Not this again. Please. Do you know how many MEN I have worked with who are also leaving early for soccer games, plays, parent-teacher meetings, etc.? And they still get paid more than their female counterparts, whether childed or not. It's sex discrimination.
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brinkswomanship
03/02/09

@Hamsterpants: Good point. I wonder how many bosses actually keep track of all these 'extra hours' that the male employees are logging, or if they're simply paying them more on the perception that they will work harder - because they're men!!

The social trend is still for men to be applauding for logging 'extra hours' - I am hoping for a swing away from this - that the social (and professional) stigma will shift from women with women's choices to men with men's choices, and that pressure will increase on men to do their share at home. Or indeed that there will be no stigma at all! But that's just crazy talk right there.
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