It just means we need to train audiences to follow women's sports with the same rabid passion they've long had for the Dodgers or the Lakers.
This isn't nearly as easy as you're implying. ESPN has been trying to train more men to watch soccer for years, and with very little success, and training, for that matter, isn't the word. They'll need to be around for a lot longer than a decade to be part of the larger culture, but the truth is that they'll need to be salient while they wait, and I don't know who's going to make such a long term investment.
Some of the traveling-to-see-sports things just depends on the specific sport and parent. For instance, my dad came to my track meets and swim meets for years, but my mom never came to see me compete in a sport until I started doing gymnastics--she just thought that sounded more fun.
Also, the whole family went to see my sister play soccer in large part because we were really, really hoping she'd stick with it.
My neighbor boys all played soccer for so long it was a community--parents could trade off attending games and out-of-town events, knowing the other chaperons were people they trusted and that they wouldn't miss anything life changing.
(I feel like there's an inappropriate women sweeping joke in there somewhere, but I'll leave that to the deadspin boys)
Seriously though, I love watching women's curling more than the men's. Maybe because I know the players better? Which may be the root of why men's professional sports are watched more often - player recognition?
@Le Kangourou de Kataroo: I think you're on to something with player recognition--if I know someone, or *think* I know someone (like I've just read an essay about them, or a friend knows them), I am much more likely to be emotionally involved in their projects.
Humans love narratives, and we love feeling connected to the story. Make women's sports just as much a narrative as men's are--give them the build-up, and the close examination of each player, and the montage about their background.
I think it's a little bit of column A, a little bit of column B.
Sports are kind of like a soap opera, in that half the fun is in the drama: picking a favorite team, picking favorite players, finding somebody to root for, following along with the highs and lows of a close game or an entire season. Without regular television coverage, it's really tough to get into it. And the irony in women's sports is that they get more coverage on the college end than the professional end (at least in their local markets). The NBA wasn't drawing huge crowds in its early years, either--it took the television era to do that. Once people could watch games on TV and get regular coverage on their daily news, they got drawn in. A lot of times, people will get into one sport, follow it on Sportscenter, and then get drawn into another sport that's also being covered on Sportscenter, so they decide to check out a game on their TV, which converts them into a fan. Until women's sports are widely covered on programs like that, and widely available to watch, they don't really stand a chance of being as popular as the men's sports. (And obviously, until they're as popular as the men's sports, it's unlikely they'll get covered on those programs, so . . .)
But the other half of it is that most people don't get into watching sports on their own--and this is doubly true of girls and women, whom it's not expected of. They get into it because of a dad or a brother, or later, male friends or a boyfriend. (I'm not saying that they never get it from a mom or a sister or female friends--just that it's comparatively rare.) And because those men are often prejudiced against the idea of women's sports (either legitimately prejudiced, in that they prefer a different style of play, or illegitimately prejudiced, in that "they just don't like watching women's sports"), often the girls/women go along with it, at least for a while. But even women who do want to watch women's sports have a hard time finding somebody to go with them.
If ESPN would ever show any WNBA games, Mr. Pietra and I would cheerfully watch them. However, every time we turn on a game, it's been usurped by some pointless mini-documentary about rookies in the NBA or some such nonsense. SHOW ME SOME FREAKIN' BASKETBALL. I'm drowning in a sea of guys whacking balls with sticks, here.
I had someone (a rather intelligent and level-headed man) tell me once that people are cool with girls' sports b/c it encourages positive self-esteem, team-playing, physical health, toughness. However, he told me that after high school, people tend to wonder "what's wrong" with these women? As though they should've grown out of the whole physical activity/sports thing and be more "feminine." He says that fans are generally paying more attention to what the girls look like and trying to decide whether or not they're lesbians or not.
I hate to admit it, but I can believe this kind of thinking kind of fuels the issue with people not supporting women's sports. And I can attest to people wondering "what's wrong" - I play rugby - despite my team being 50/50 straight/gay-other. We virtually have no fans and it's hard as hell to get people to come to the games - even my own FRIENDS. But the men's games? Fans galore. And we were undefeated this spring season.
Let me recommend a grad-school thesis documentary I came across: Paradox on the Pitch. It tells a lot about women's rugby from a rookie's viewpoint. There are 3 parts to it.
@shorty63136: That's terrible! I used to play women's rugby in college, and although our fan base was smaller than the men's team, my teammates were able to pull in friends/significant others/friends from sororities and other extracurricular groups. :/
I think that your acquaintance's comment is interesting for two reasons though: 1) I know a lot of folks (men and women) who play in social leagues after college. I mean, it's kickball, and it's partly an excuse to mingle and drink (not unlike casual collegiate rugby clubs!) but no one seems to give women the side eye for participating. I have friends who have dealt or seen some sexism in their teams or other teams but no one is thinking that there is something flawed with these women. 2) On the other hand, I have known some players who are interested in post-college women's rugby teams who have gotten a lot more flack about it from the people in their lives then the players who want to join a men's team. WTF?
Finally, congrats on being undefeated! (My college team, despite my and a few other teammates best efforts, weren't very successful in our local area.) Which part of the country do you play in?
I play on a competitive team in the south (which makes rugby that much more obscure). Not exactly kickball but we like to think we're pretty hardcore and have had a reputation for being that.
What I love about our team is we've got a little bit of every kind of person. One of our players joined after having three kids, some (like myself) had never played an organized sport ever in life, we've got some with 20+ years of experience, we've got girls who also bring in experience from soccer, footy, Aussie rules rugby, and Gaelic football.
It's my goal to get a sideline full of fans for the fall season.
@shorty63136: Hmm, for some reason I had read your original post and thought that you were playing in a college team. My apologies--mind if we take this to the PMs? I'm nosy. ;)
Wait wait wait. Didn't we have a post awhile back about how girls from middle and upper class families have achieved parity with boys as far as participating in sports go (approximately 45% participate, if memory serves) but girls from lower class backgrounds are far less likely to compete (something like 12% participate) where as income level and social class don't tend to matter as much with the boys?
Wouldn't it then logically follow that since the girls' group isn't "diluted" with lower income peers, a higher proportion of families would choose to attend the girls' games simply because they could afford to compared with the boys who would reflect various high and low income levels, so a smaller proportion of parents would attend due to the smaller proportion of middle and upper class athletes?
@Zombie Ms. Skittles: Hmm, very interesting. I definitely think that could be a contributing factor (though on any of these travel teams, the percentage of middle class kids is way higher than a school team.) So what you point out is probably less true at younger ages when more travel teams are specialized leagues and more so when youth are older and their school teams travel more.
Brandi Chastain is such an amazing soccer player. I believe she's the second oldest player in the WSL, she has helped her team win World Cups and Gold Medals.
And yet the only thing people remember is that she's the woman who took off her shirt
I would imagine girls sports have a lot of parents watching, while there isn't the same built-in audience for professional sports, and not the same history that the male sports teams have with a loyal fan base, etc. Other than that, there is still the assumption that females don't play at the same level.
@Grim Reaper of the Forest: You know, this leads to a good point. How long did it take for the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL to catch on? Probably years and years. The difference is that they were able to grow at times when there wasn't the huge pressure to be profitable early, to sell merchandise and seats. The women's leagues just aren't given a chance to grow naturally by virture of the way our culture is now, as opposed to the men's leagues that didn't have to compete with cable tv, the internet, video games, etc.
women need to step up and buy tickets to female sports games? How about Sports Fans need to buy tickets to both male and female games? How about TV needs to give Female sports teams equal coverage?
@weetziebat:Because television networks are in the business of making money, not promoting equality.
No sports organization is going to get airtime unless they can prove there's a large enough audience that advertisers are willing to spend in order to market to.
Exactly. As a hockey fan I would love it if, say, ESPN gave the NHL (a "major sport") the same kind of coverage that it gave to its sacred cows of the NFL, NBA, MLB and even freaking NASCAR.
Honestly, I don't watch the women's versions of male professional sports I grew up watching -- golf, basketball particularly -- because I already watch that sport. For me it's about the sport and I get my fill. I
came to watching tennis late, and watch men's and women's equally.
I'd like to see diving, swimming, trampoline, gymnastics, skiing/snowboarding get traction as women's professional sports. Personally, I'd watch them whenever they were on. Plus, individual sports like that are easier to watch randomly because a good personal interest story can tie you in and you're rooting for a person, not a team, so you can get connected.
There is this constant, stupid joke that I have seen on TV, and in movies and books, about how no one wants to go to WNBA games cause the women can't dunk. And while it's an obnoxious joke, like most jokes, I think it has a bit of truth to it. In most sports, women physically cannot have those moments that make you grab the edge of your seat and go "Oh my god!" They can't dunk in basketball, they can't drive the insane distances in golf, etc. In the sports where their physical features are an advantage - ice skating, for instance - women are more often watched than men.
Of course, I think that women's games, as a result, become more about precision and strategy, which to me is more interesting. But I think most people watch sports for that moment of feeling like someone is an inhuman god. And you don't get that as much from women's sports.
@laureltreedaphne: I agree with you--the interesting thing about the "women can't dunk" argument is that the dunk actually takes a lot of the drama out of the game. While I love basketball, I don't watch much of the NBA because 90 percent of possessions end in an easy dunk or lay-up. Their offensive skills have grown to the point where the other players' defensive skills can rarely keep up. College basketball--of either gender--is far more interesting to me because how you run a play matters more than just one player's spectacular offensive skill. It's much harder for a team with one great player to run all over a team with five average players, the way it is in the NBA. But I can understand that people who have been raised on the NBA style of play might prefer it.
@laureltreedaphne: I'm not really sure that women have a physical advantage in ice skating--very few women can do the sorts of difficult triple or quadruple jumps (axels, etc.) that are required for the men's competitions. The main reason women's ice skating gets the attention that it does is that it's at once uber-feminine (all the sparkly costumes!) and crazy athletic (how many 19-year-old NBA players need hip replacements?) that dovetails nicely with our culture's weird attitudes about women in general.
The Williams sisters routinely look like inhuman goddesses. So did Marion Jones (who, sadly, was inhuman). Plenty of female athletes will make you drop your jaw, either individually or through plain ol' teamwork, which last time I checked was the ostensible point of team sports.
The Williams sisters look like inhuman goddesses, but their serves are still nowhere near as fast as Andy Roddick's. (Which I actually think makes their game more interesting, but not everyone would agree.) With figure skating, you're right about the costumes and stuff of course, but I was actually thinking of pairs skating where the woman can be thrown into these crazy jumps that make you catch your breath.
And really, I wasn't saying that I don't drop my jaw at great teamwork. But I was saying that I think a lot of people want to watch LeBron make a basket from the other side of the court, something that female athletes simply aren't able to do. I guess what I really meant was feats of strength rather than skill.
@nora charles: I totally prefer college basketball--it's just a better game, I think. My home city recently lost its NBA team (guess where I live!) but we still have a WNBA team, which, evidently, is doing really well. But no one is going to the games.
In fact, it's treated like a joke. I was walking past the (very nice and useable, no matter what the NBA team's owner will tell you) arena the other day and some douchey guys from out of town joked, "What happens there? Nothing???"
Actually, jerks, a very successful team plays there, full of athletes with skills and abilities we should all be admiring, not mocking.
Strange that all these news outlets are coming out with articles on womens sports after ESPN did theirs last week. I know they're non-grata around here, but at least reference them.
Anyways, it's always going to come down to money. People aren't interested because their sports don't get the exposure that allows them to watch on television, and they don't get the exposure because they're not profitable to broadcast.
It annoys me that soccer doesn't play well in the States but at least I do my part by going to a few Red Bulls games a year. I'll also consider getting season tickets when the new stadium opens. If you want your sports to gain more visibility you have to voice that opinion by spending your own money to watch them.
@sequined: That's what I understand as well. Good for Seattle.
I'm lucky enough to live in an area with enough of a population to support an interest in MLS, but it does concern me that outside of a few pockets in the US, soccer is largely met with a shrug. The competition isn't up to par with the European game obviously, but it's still a blast to watch and its success is vital for our future World Cup hopes.
My biggest problem with DeFord's essay was his assertion that Title IX is eventually going to kill all men's collegiate sports. It was such a logical leap, and I normally love Frank DeFord. He seems so old school, and I picture him to dress like Colonel Sanders and thoughtfully rock back and forth on his feet as he clutches his suspenders.
@morninggloria: Hee. Indeed. DeFord is usually great about women's sports because of his experiences with his own daughter. (and I hear nothing but nice things about him as a person)
@morninggloria: I wish the damn Smith College alumna magazine site wasn't down because otherwise I would link to an awesome article by Andrew Zimbalist . He suggests that the only way to correct the problems with men's sports under Title IX s to stop paying the football & basketball coaches so damn much money. It's amazing.
@Spaceman Bill Leah: I would LOVE to see that article. It's true -- there are so many unintended bad consequences to sports from Title IX tied to the massive expense of some mens D-I teams. Thanks for the heads up that it exists.
@Spaceman Bill Leah: The coaches should absolutely not get paid so much money! The highest-paid state employees in many states are the college football coaches. Ridiculous!
07/29/09
This isn't nearly as easy as you're implying. ESPN has been trying to train more men to watch soccer for years, and with very little success, and training, for that matter, isn't the word. They'll need to be around for a lot longer than a decade to be part of the larger culture, but the truth is that they'll need to be salient while they wait, and I don't know who's going to make such a long term investment.
07/29/09
Also, the whole family went to see my sister play soccer in large part because we were really, really hoping she'd stick with it.
My neighbor boys all played soccer for so long it was a community--parents could trade off attending games and out-of-town events, knowing the other chaperons were people they trusted and that they wouldn't miss anything life changing.
Anecdotal explanation.
07/29/09
(I feel like there's an inappropriate women sweeping joke in there somewhere, but I'll leave that to the deadspin boys)
Seriously though, I love watching women's curling more than the men's. Maybe because I know the players better? Which may be the root of why men's professional sports are watched more often - player recognition?
07/29/09
Humans love narratives, and we love feeling connected to the story. Make women's sports just as much a narrative as men's are--give them the build-up, and the close examination of each player, and the montage about their background.
07/29/09
As a Canadian, even I think it's weird that you know the name of a single curler, male or female.
07/29/09
Sports are kind of like a soap opera, in that half the fun is in the drama: picking a favorite team, picking favorite players, finding somebody to root for, following along with the highs and lows of a close game or an entire season. Without regular television coverage, it's really tough to get into it. And the irony in women's sports is that they get more coverage on the college end than the professional end (at least in their local markets). The NBA wasn't drawing huge crowds in its early years, either--it took the television era to do that. Once people could watch games on TV and get regular coverage on their daily news, they got drawn in. A lot of times, people will get into one sport, follow it on Sportscenter, and then get drawn into another sport that's also being covered on Sportscenter, so they decide to check out a game on their TV, which converts them into a fan. Until women's sports are widely covered on programs like that, and widely available to watch, they don't really stand a chance of being as popular as the men's sports. (And obviously, until they're as popular as the men's sports, it's unlikely they'll get covered on those programs, so . . .)
But the other half of it is that most people don't get into watching sports on their own--and this is doubly true of girls and women, whom it's not expected of. They get into it because of a dad or a brother, or later, male friends or a boyfriend. (I'm not saying that they never get it from a mom or a sister or female friends--just that it's comparatively rare.) And because those men are often prejudiced against the idea of women's sports (either legitimately prejudiced, in that they prefer a different style of play, or illegitimately prejudiced, in that "they just don't like watching women's sports"), often the girls/women go along with it, at least for a while. But even women who do want to watch women's sports have a hard time finding somebody to go with them.
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I hate to admit it, but I can believe this kind of thinking kind of fuels the issue with people not supporting women's sports. And I can attest to people wondering "what's wrong" - I play rugby - despite my team being 50/50 straight/gay-other. We virtually have no fans and it's hard as hell to get people to come to the games - even my own FRIENDS. But the men's games? Fans galore. And we were undefeated this spring season.
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Let me recommend a grad-school thesis documentary I came across: Paradox on the Pitch. It tells a lot about women's rugby from a rookie's viewpoint. There are 3 parts to it.
07/29/09
I think that your acquaintance's comment is interesting for two reasons though:
1) I know a lot of folks (men and women) who play in social leagues after college. I mean, it's kickball, and it's partly an excuse to mingle and drink (not unlike casual collegiate rugby clubs!) but no one seems to give women the side eye for participating. I have friends who have dealt or seen some sexism in their teams or other teams but no one is thinking that there is something flawed with these women.
2) On the other hand, I have known some players who are interested in post-college women's rugby teams who have gotten a lot more flack about it from the people in their lives then the players who want to join a men's team. WTF?
Finally, congrats on being undefeated! (My college team, despite my and a few other teammates best efforts, weren't very successful in our local area.) Which part of the country do you play in?
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I play on a competitive team in the south (which makes rugby that much more obscure). Not exactly kickball but we like to think we're pretty hardcore and have had a reputation for being that.
What I love about our team is we've got a little bit of every kind of person. One of our players joined after having three kids, some (like myself) had never played an organized sport ever in life, we've got some with 20+ years of experience, we've got girls who also bring in experience from soccer, footy, Aussie rules rugby, and Gaelic football.
It's my goal to get a sideline full of fans for the fall season.
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Wouldn't it then logically follow that since the girls' group isn't "diluted" with lower income peers, a higher proportion of families would choose to attend the girls' games simply because they could afford to compared with the boys who would reflect various high and low income levels, so a smaller proportion of parents would attend due to the smaller proportion of middle and upper class athletes?
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And yet the only thing people remember is that she's the woman who took off her shirt
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No sports organization is going to get airtime unless they can prove there's a large enough audience that advertisers are willing to spend in order to market to.
07/29/09
Exactly. As a hockey fan I would love it if, say, ESPN gave the NHL (a "major sport") the same kind of coverage that it gave to its sacred cows of the NFL, NBA, MLB and even freaking NASCAR.
07/29/09
came to watching tennis late, and watch men's and women's equally.
I'd like to see diving, swimming, trampoline, gymnastics, skiing/snowboarding get traction as women's professional sports. Personally, I'd watch them whenever they were on. Plus, individual sports like that are easier to watch randomly because a good personal interest story can tie you in and you're rooting for a person, not a team, so you can get connected.
07/29/09
Of course, I think that women's games, as a result, become more about precision and strategy, which to me is more interesting. But I think most people watch sports for that moment of feeling like someone is an inhuman god. And you don't get that as much from women's sports.
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The Williams sisters routinely look like inhuman goddesses. So did Marion Jones (who, sadly, was inhuman). Plenty of female athletes will make you drop your jaw, either individually or through plain ol' teamwork, which last time I checked was the ostensible point of team sports.
07/29/09
That was supposed to be a link, dammit.
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jun/23/sports/sp-sparks23
07/29/09
The Williams sisters look like inhuman goddesses, but their serves are still nowhere near as fast as Andy Roddick's. (Which I actually think makes their game more interesting, but not everyone would agree.) With figure skating, you're right about the costumes and stuff of course, but I was actually thinking of pairs skating where the woman can be thrown into these crazy jumps that make you catch your breath.
And really, I wasn't saying that I don't drop my jaw at great teamwork. But I was saying that I think a lot of people want to watch LeBron make a basket from the other side of the court, something that female athletes simply aren't able to do. I guess what I really meant was feats of strength rather than skill.
07/29/09
Awesome!
I do think it's notable, though, that she's only the 2nd woman to do it, while in men's basketball it's routine.
07/29/09
In fact, it's treated like a joke. I was walking past the (very nice and useable, no matter what the NBA team's owner will tell you) arena the other day and some douchey guys from out of town joked, "What happens there? Nothing???"
Actually, jerks, a very successful team plays there, full of athletes with skills and abilities we should all be admiring, not mocking.
07/29/09
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/columns/story?columnist=kreidler_mark&id=4352885
Anyways, it's always going to come down to money. People aren't interested because their sports don't get the exposure that allows them to watch on television, and they don't get the exposure because they're not profitable to broadcast.
It annoys me that soccer doesn't play well in the States but at least I do my part by going to a few Red Bulls games a year. I'll also consider getting season tickets when the new stadium opens. If you want your sports to gain more visibility you have to voice that opinion by spending your own money to watch them.
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I'm lucky enough to live in an area with enough of a population to support an interest in MLS, but it does concern me that outside of a few pockets in the US, soccer is largely met with a shrug. The competition isn't up to par with the European game obviously, but it's still a blast to watch and its success is vital for our future World Cup hopes.
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