Jezebel 
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New York, 1:41 PM
Mon Nov 9
40 posts in the last 24 hours
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10/14/09
And I don't think the "But we're French!" excuse flies anymore. It's not like France is hermetically sealed off from the rest of the world or doesn't have its own racial problems. I'm sorry to say that from my perspective, Europeans seem to be behind Americans in terms of racial sensitivity. I still clearly remember the slanty eyes pictures of the Spanish Olympic basketball team and the repeated, lame Berlusconi jokes about the Obamas being "tanned." Both of those were excused as instances of cultural ignorance, usually accompanied by a "hey, it was a joke you PC Americans. Lighten up!"
Ugh.
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The shoot is apparently intended to be arty, to be edgy; fine. But it feels cheap and attention-seeking, and the lack of non-white models in the rest of the issue suggests that the editors are actually the opposite of edgy - they are just lazy and conservative.
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As I mentioned in the first story about this, racism does not exist on its own. It is an intent. There is no way there was intent here. Brown paint on white skin is not in and of itself a minstrel show, and it does not inherently make the pictures racist. So by the logic of the detractors on the board, no one is ever allowed to wear white robes anymore just because the Klan does? Or is it the pointy hats that make them racists? The people involved in this are not racists. So the pics cant be either.
The most disturbing thing about this is that if they had used a black model wearing white paint in the spread, this article and these discussions would not even exist. Everyone here that is offended by this would be appeased by that simple tit for tat. And for anyone to think that actual racism could be resolved so easily is dangerous. If your resolution to "racism" can be resolved that simply, then it wasn't real in the first place. And please spare me the forth coming "I didn't say that would appease me" line. Its the truth, and if you're being honest with us and yourself you know it is.
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A: how on earth would you know what their private beliefs are?
The same way you do apparently. Your assumption that they are racists is as valid as my assumption that they aren't.
B: Racism, or any other ideological position, doesn't function overtly. Most of us are unaware of our own prejudices.
Exactly. Real racists don't go around promoting it. Much less produce multipage photo shoots in international magazines touting that racism.
C: Nobody has suggested that the editors of Vogue 'are racists'.
Ok, lets say hypothetically that's true. So then what you are saying is that the the images are racist instead. No actual person is, just the pictures. Talk about a strawman argument.
You and others on this board will never concede any of my points as it gets in the way of you politically correct agenda. No one ever actually wants to discuss race. You just want to bludgeon the other side into submission in hopes of them just going away. That does nothing to actually help resolve the race issues in the world.
I can only assume you would have made equally as forceful an arguement for Tawana Brawley, or the Duke Lacrosse "victim", up to the point where they were both proven to be liars. You much like the professors at Duke who condemned the entire team immediately, see race first and no further discussion is warranted. And god help the person that does. They are obviously (moronic, deficient, dense, witless, dim, foolish, brainless, half-witted, idiotic, shortsighted, simple, slow, sluggish, thick, imbecilic, unintelligent, insert your own...) Although I have to admit being called Tom Cruise is a new one. Kudos for that. #vogueblackface
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I don't think there's anything wrong with this because really, she's just painted brown. They didn't enhance her lips or give her an out of control afro wig, or any of the stuff that really makes me think "blackface". She's just darker.
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I added in my race because, like it or not, it does kind of matter who the "I'm NOT offended" comment comes from. I in no way meant it as a green light for white folks to start jumping in brown paint and walking around all day talking about massa' and what not. I'm just saying, I'm more offended by "mammy" type of images, like Aunt Jemima, than I am by some white girl covered in brown concealer.
I understand wanting to caution people against the "well my one black friend says...." effect, but don't put that shit on me, because I never said, "hey chill out everybody, I've just made it OK to love blackface!" #vogueblackface
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you can even make the argument that one of the reasons josephine baker was so welcomed by french people was BECAUSE she was a highly eroticized other that played into colonial myths about the hypersexuality of native peoples. I mean, come on, her most famous dance performance was called the "danse sauvage" and she wore a skirt made of bananas. she became a citizens through marriage, but she was first and foremost a PERFORMER. that being said, baker was still a badass who fought for civil and human rights but i doubt that her acceptance into the french mainstream is a whole-hearted/wholesome as you make it to sound.
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Indeed. As an African America woman who has traveled extensively throughout France while reading for my PhD in French History I can honestly say that this perceived prejudice seems to stem more from class and economics than it does to your actual skin tone. As in England.
I don't think you can say that by and large French society as a whole is more or less racist than any other place. Their problems with immigration are also something that should be viewed in a wider spectrum, such as the lack of desire on the part of many of these North Africa/Arab/Afro-Carribean minority communities to integrate.
Let's try to refrain from broad and sweeping generalizations. This editorial is outrageous, but it simply cannot be attributable to the whole of the French peoples perceived prejudice.
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as far as assimilation and integration go: why should these groups be forced to forget their cultural heritage and adopt the cultural markers of a society that doesn't really want them AS THEY ARE but would only accept them if they were more like them? and how do you integrate into a culture when you go into a job interview are immediately taken out of consideration when you open your mouth and the interviewer hears your accent?
the riots in 2005 happened because immigrant youth couldn't find jobs BECAUSE they were immigrants. they wanted to work and many of them did conceive of themselves as french but weren't treated as such.
im not saying france is any more or any less racist than anywhere else. im just saying that it IS and it is something that they cultural minister is going to have to address at some point. either french culture needs to reimagine itself as more inclusive or these sorts of problems are going to continue indefinitely.
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You basically just said that French people are racist. I am hugely offended by this unqualified, unequivocal statement which is in itself racist.
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I was reading an article on Die Spiegel today that further explicates this issue of integration and how detrimental it is to both the minority communities and the larger communities in which they live. When you have people entering your country in droves with most of them refusing (or perhaps as in the case of my husband's mother, without the intellectual ability) to learn the language of their new country, all sorts of problems arise.
Here's the link: [www.spiegel.de]
And while there is no question that some racism is involved, I think a large part of the tension can be attributed to the fact that people fear what they do not know. These people need to be able to communicate with each other.
This is not a question of intermarriage as I continue to fight that battle with Monsieur Celeste who cannot fathom allowing his daughter to marry anyone who is not muslim and yet he is fully integrated into western society. Marriage issues and dating have relatively little if any impact on this issue.
@amoureuse:
'class is completely tied into race though, especially when economic opportunities are denied to you because of your skin color/ethnic background.'
I beg to differ. I have been, as far as I can recollect, black all of my life. My mother was a bus driver, my father a mechanic and I have achieved a world class education in the States, in England and in France. Class and race, while one may influence the other, are not inextricably interwoven. One may argue that as a child of the South, my options were limited, but I have never, in all of my 31 years, found this to be the case for me, my siblings or any of my cousins who have gone on to brilliant careers.
I am well aware of the riots that took place in France and I can tell you that I am not completely dismissing the suggestion that these youths were unable to find jobs due to their accents, but what these youths must understand, as all minorities, is that when you are a minority, you MUST learn to be all things to all people. I speak many languages, valley girl, home girl, intellectual scholar, southern belle and so on and so forth. Depending upon my audience, I can easily slip into any of these. Do I feel that I have given up my cultural heritage because I can communicate on all levels? Be all things to all people? Absolutely not. I have simply evolved, my abilities derive from my need to survive and compete. When these minorities realize this, they too will find that their lives are greatly improved.
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also, both france and the us have large communities of poc. if i were to say that ALL french or ALL americans are racist i would be making the assumption that ALL people in those countries are members of the culturally dominant group and be ignoring the existence of the communities of poc.
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In fact, this is a sad face. A SAD FUCKING FACE.
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this shoot probably did not have that intention, but whether they realize it or not it still has that legacy. blackface/minstrelsy are uniquely american products that were exported to europe--where the tradition actually lasted MUCH longer than in the US. (in the us, blackface was replaced by vaudeville/tinpan alley in the 20's/30s but blackface was acceptable in the uk up into the 60s/70s). this shoot was probably just trying to be edgy and didnt realize the cultural landmine they were stepping on. nor do they really appear to care.
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In a perfect world, anyone can paint themselves in what ever color they want. In a racist world where everyone is trained to be offended there is no freedom. Whiteface is acceptable however.
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"in a perfect world, anyone can paint themselves in whatever color they want. In a racist world, where dominant racial groups are trained to be dismissive to the legitimate grievances of minority racial groups, there is no equality or justice. Whiteface lacks the cultural and historical baggage that comes with all representations of blackface and can be constructed either as a form of resistance (passing), a form of protest or a played out comic device used by the wayan brothers in a total flop of a film."
there you go. thats a little more accurate.
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Doesn't it seem weird to you that white people are the only ones ever talking about how racism is over? No? Great, well continue living in your bubble.
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And those inequalities are not located in the past. They are in the present. And they are not the result of people just dying to be offended.
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im unsure as to what you are trying to say when you write "In this discussion my opinion is irrelevant because of my skin colour. I don't matter, only past actions of people of my skin colour do." anti-racism and anti-racist activism can be performed by every person on earth who is dedicated to racial equality and the realization that all people, no matter their racial or ethnic heritage are people. you dont have to be a POC to speak out against racism.
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yeah, that sounds about equal to historical legal inequality, disenfranchisment, forced labor, murder as sport/entertainment, segregation, discriminatory laws, etc that faced (faces!) many POC in the western world (and thats not even getting into race in the colonial world!).
if you read as white, you benefit from white privilege. end of story. if you continue to deny it and your cultural dominance then you are moving out of the willfully ignorant category and into the racism-apologists section.
i am white. i benefit from white privilege every day. but since i recognize it (or can in at least some situations) i can attempt to deny it when it happens. there is no need to put on this mock-victim costume of yours. its condescending.
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what CAN be denied however, it a person's willingness to benefit/exploit the privileges that come with being from the dominant social group. i benefit from white privilege, but not from male. being a white christian male does not necessarily mean that you HAVE to play the role of oppressor, but unless you actively ACT in non-oppressive ways you inevitabley will. its not because you are an inherently bad person because you are white, christian, and male but because you have been socialized (as has everyone else, including those who dont benefit from that privilege) to see those aspects of your identity as superior to those that are constructed in opposition (black/white, male/female, native-born/immgriant, christian/anything besides christian etc).
most people dont realize how this is constantly operating and that is why it must be called out when it happens. those who enjoy their ignorance call it "being pc" -- but in reality it a vocal objection to cultural supremacy.
i dont want to sound pedagogical, but i hope that you think about these things further and learn some more about them. everyone should. im very glad that i did.
10/14/09
What I want you to realize is that not all of us sharing in the skin colour have benefited in this dreamy north american life style. We escaped a communist run country to live in germany when i was 9 years old. Since than my parents have worked menial immigrant jobs, polish citizens have traditionally held the same jobs in that country as illegal migrant workers from mexico have in the us. The skin colour difference may not be there. But not all differences are visible.
As far as suffering, we been wiped out via work and death camps, both russian and german to the tune of 5 million citizens. So we have our share of pain, numerically larger than many other victims, but again not as memorable as other atrocities.
Currently as i mentioned I live in Toronto. In my environment always a minority. I work for a Japanese boss with 7 other japanese people. My white privilege isn't doing much here. My wife of asian descent reports to her corporate master who is a black woman. This is the world I live in, and it's the world I want to live in. I have nothing in common with the right wing white talking heads that share my skin colour, i have more in common with people that surround me. That is why I despise the fact that outsider looking in still break us down for skin colours.
Now what is the next step to harmony ? I wish I knew. Living together as equals is a good start.
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However, what I think people are referring to is inter-racial prvilege -- white-skinned privilege, particularly as it plays out in Western societies. I'm curious, as a White man living in North America today, how many times have you been pulled over by the police? Do women hold their purses a little tighter as you walk by? When you look at the television, how many people look like you? What about magazines? You mentioned your wife's boss is black -- have you thought about her experiences on the job? Has her ability to lead ever been questioned? What about your wife's? That's the kind of privilege people are talking about. And it's extremely, extremely damaging, both to those on the receiving end, and for those who've never had to think twice about it. I'm sorry to be long-winded, and hope I don't come across as patronizing. But I also think I needed to be said.
10/14/09
I think the next step to harmony is for the ruling/oppressing/privileged class/sex/race to realize that they need to take more ownership of the problem and that the work is far from over. Pretending like we are suddenly on an equal playing field because *you* didn't do anything to anyone isn't just ignorant, it is racist. I come from a working class family of very recent Scottish decent, and while we never oppressed anyone, I sure do benefit from a country that got rich off of the backs of an entire people. Until we stop pretending that criticism of Christian/white/straight/men means all bets are off, we will never work to fix the very real racism that is STILL, in 2009 (see: Jenna 6, children being kicked out of pools, homelessness and drug abuse of natives in the U.S. and Canada, child slave trade, AIDS epidemic, and many, many more examples), rampant.
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he now lives in north america where he benefits from white privilege BUT suffers the ill-affects of nativism. nativism is a different form of cultural oppression but it seems as though he is confounding the two. (and please dont try and say that i am saying nativism is less important or less harmful than racism/sexism/any other form of oppression because i am not and i would LOVE to see nativist attitudes eradicated as well)
we are constantly being simultaneously oppressed and oppressing others. we have a choice, however, with what we are wiling to be complicit in that oppression. there is nothing about being born in poland or having an asian wife that means he can't realize the way in which he benefits from white privilege and the way in which that white privilege makes blackface seem not that offensive to him.
10/15/09
Sometimes, with second and third generation Italian and Irish immigrants, there is a tendency to backlash against the concept of white guilt, which is why white privilege can be a useful concept, as in, you might not owe anyone reparations, but you still are benefitting from being white today. Being in North America, KaneBaker does need to learn this.
I just think it muddies the issue sometimes to put everything under the term "white privilege", from someone like me, with some ancestors who were English and came to the US a long time ago, to some Polish immigrant who just moved to Canada 10 years ago or whatever. I see that until later statements it might be hard to tell that he is talking not so much about nativism as the actual oppression of Polish people within Poland and Germany. This is not to turn things into Oppression Olympics (@5ft. of fury) but to have some sympathy for the cognitive dissonance that might happen if you move to North America and suddenly, by virtue of skin color, are associated with the oppressor.
10/15/09
As someone who is biracial, I sometimes feel, intuitively, that there is racism/oppresion present in the gestures/words of others but I just can't seem to express it accurately and in an articulate manner. I'm 15 and sooo glad I have found Jezebel. :) #vogueblackface
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It's like blackface, despite being an incredibly successful practice for decades, despite being featured in the first major motion picture with coordinated sound, despite breaking out every few years like pop culture herpes and sparking discussions like this, is somehow the only form of popular American entertainment of the last century to remain a complete and total secret to everyone outside of the States. And sometimes even Americans somehow.
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I have no idea what this means. Explain please?
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[www.brisbanetimes.com.au]
What has been the reaction in France?
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[www.brisbanetimes.com.au]
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[www.guardian.co.uk]
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