@laetitiae: yeah its pretty unbelievable in the US no less. As much as we promote the cult of motherhood, our system pretty much shows we don't give a damn about the well-being of our moms or kids. It's pretty sad.
I think that current FMLA laws in the US are the absolute best the US can do.
W/o revamping the entire US employment system, of which a majority of states are right to work states, there is little that can be done.
Do some jobs only offer the FMLA minimum? Yes. Are all jobs required to offer the FMLA minimum? No. Do I think that all jobs should offer the FMLA minimum? No. With the current restrictions (50 employees, at least 12 mos service, plus 1,250 hours) we don't cripple small businesses that absolutely CANNOT afford to offer FMLA time to all employees in the scenario that all ask for it. I do not think that the donut shop around the corner that has 10 employees should be required to offer mandatory FMLA leave (which covers more than leave for women btw), such that a company with 50+ would be required.
Right to work, or, employment at will works for both the employer and the employee. There are a lot of things that happen in the employment relationship that are maybe unfair, but certainly aren't unlawful. And the trend towards categorizing things that are unfair as unlawful bother me to say the least. Who draws the line? Who creates the bright line between employer and employee?
The U.S. doesn't have the system to accommodate the change.
Seriously, I'd rather see universal health care--which to me is a more important bone to pick--than 12 weeks off unpaid care for a business that has less than 50 employees.
@dangerslut: A lot of the social programming other countries have comes from higher income taxes and the VAT. The VAT is a real kicker- 8% is a high sales tax in the US but 20% is common in Europe.
12 months paid maternity leave actually has some downsides for women if they are trying to climb the corporate ladder. But we could make everyone offer 3 months paid maternity/paternity leave with an option for a further 9 months unpaid. The federal government could pick up the tab for small businesses to offer maternity leave. We already require that jobs be kept open for reservists.
I'd rather have universal health care too, but I think we could do more than we do now. I also think that people need to be more aware of how these benefits are offered in other countries and how that could translate to the US.
God forbid companies would care about their skilled employees and give them maternity/paternity leave after they give birth or to take care of a sick child or family member.
But who cares what type of circumstance the people are in? They can always find young, unmarried, childless people to do the job, because they'll have more time to devote to their work. It's disgusting and a total slap in the face for adding to the population, like you're expected to in our society.
If they don't change this policy on paid leave, then it's definitely going to impact my future family planning. I might end up not having kids at all!
A fellow attorney at my firm (who is male) took 2 months off to care for his 2nd child when she was born. The firm paid for him in full. I thought that was awesome.
One of the very few perks of working for a law firm is that they are so worried about getting sued, they rarely screw you over with regard to disability, pregnancy, sexual harassment, etc. I've been sexually harassed at work, and when I reported it, it was immediately rectified. They do NOT want to be sued.
(And no, I don't make crazy money at a fancy law fim - most people, like me, work for regular 'ol law firms that pay decent salaries).
@JinxyMcDeath: um, except for the fact that they avoid employing young, married women, and the second you show an interest in procreating, BOOM! Mommy track.
@deeemer: It totally disagree. I'm in my 20s and I've gotten a ton of job offers. I admit, however, that I am not married and maybe the absence of a wedding ring make a difference. If so, I suggest not wearing engagement or wedding rings to interviews. Beat them at their own game.
@deeemer: I'm sure that happens - but I haven't seen it happen at my firm. Married women with children make partner each year here. Are you a lawyer? Because typically whether you make partner is not based upon whether you get pregnant - its based upon whether they think that you are lucrative enough to keep. If you bring in business and have good hours, you're going to make a partner - pregnancy or children or not. The women partners here work their asses off until they are 9-months pregnant and then they leave for 2 months and come back raring to go. That's the way you do it.
I was absolutely flabbergasted when I first heard about parental leave laws in the US (I'm Canadian). How can a country that so strongly apparently supports "family values" rhetorically will in no way materially support families? Does not compute. I don't even understand how people in a system like yours even consider having children if they aren't already super affluent. I know I wouldn't.
@eibhinn: Oh, Canada! It gets even better: The United States preaches its "family values" bullshit while taxing married couples at a higher rate than singles.
It continues to boggle my mind that employers don't understand that if they provide decent (not even European-style good, just decent) maternity leave and childcare -- they retain their employees. The kind of loyalty that women give to employers who provide these things can't be easily factored into a cost-benefits analysis of benefits packages, but man alive, it's real. Or are you enjoying all that turn-over on your workforce?
Of course when everyone starts to offer these sorts of "perks," then loyalty will have to won more creatively. But I'm not sure that'll be an issue in the foreseeable future.
@ellaesther: The flaw in your otherwise lovely and humane logic: Employers don't give a rat's ass about retaining their employees. We are considered totally indispensable cogs.
@ihateyourescalade: While I understand your sentiment, there is a very real, cold-and-hard business logic to retaining employees. It costs money to keep training people, to keep paying for the inevitable screw-ups of newbies, to slow everything down while the newbies catch up, etc. This may be more true at the higher end of the pay scale, but it's true at the lower end as well. Someone who has worked for you for 5-10-15 years is simply a better employee than someone who has worked for you for 5-10-15 months.
@deeemer: But you see, this is exactly where I started: It boggles my mind that employers are like this and don't get it. I'm not saying that they do -- I'm saying that I'm stunned that they don't.
I am ashamed to say that I JUST found out that federal employees get NO paid maternity leave whatsoever. And I am a federal employee. Apparently there are about three other countries in the world with this policy and they are Lesotho, Papua New Guinea, and Swaziland (IIRC).
@Benevolent_Dictatrix I must I must increase my bust!: I'm a fed too and what cracks me up is the number of people who rave about how "great" the federal govt benefits are. sure, my benefits are light years better than my husband's, but my last corporate job had much, much, much better benefits, starting w/ 2 months paid maternity leave.
@SmallbutMighty: I am also a fed, and the benefits absolutely suck. I hate how everyone acts like you have the life of riley because you get Columbus day off. Whatever. You get NO days other than Federal holidays. No week at Christmas, no half days in the summer, etc.
And you can just flat out forget about Daddy getting any time off. My husband works in a male dominated industry and it was assumed that he would be back as soon as I was out of the hospital.
@emilyanne: Did he take the full two weeks? I feel like many people (men and women) can take the time legally but the expectation is that they wont. My husband could have taken 4 weeks paid. But it was made pretty clear that he wouldn't get promoted or get certain assignments if he took more than a few days. His bosses wife had a baby a month before me and he was back in the office the next day!
@ellaesther: to be fair, they kick you out much faster in the UK then in the US, it's the one notable thing in American favour. In the UK you can be out within six hours of birth, and even c-sections aren't more than 36 hours generally whereas the US made me stay in for three days after my emergency c.
@Slumdog_Mamabear: yep because he's on an expat contract, they headhunted him to come over here and train people and he has a specialism that the US is really behind the UK in. Plus being Irish and not American I don't think it occurred to him that it wasn't what you're supposed to do - it helps that the company he works for is European though but he's taking the full two weeks again this time too.
@Slumdog_Mamabear: Honestly, this is part of the reason I'm not sure I ever want kids at all. From day 1 the whole system is set up so that the woman is the childcare provider and the man is the breadwinner. After reading some stuff about the family-friendly policies in the Netherlands I realized that it would actually make me more likely to want to have a child if that was the norm here. Sad.
@emilyanne: i was in the hospital for six days after my c-section, but only because i was resistant to the pain medication and developed an allergy to something they used to close up the stitches on my abdomen. thank god i had decent insurance.
@Sting Stang Stung: ooh poor you and yes thank god you had decent insurance. The only I really loved about giving birth in the US though was that they gave me percocet to take home, a lot of uK hospitals send you back post-c section with the UK equivalent of tylenol.
@RainbowBrite: I think a lot of it has to do with how you set it up with your partner before you have kids though. Yes, this culture assumes that you will be the primary caretaker but that is not how you have to live it out.
My husband and I did what was right for us and I chose to stay home. If I had been forced into this or if it had just been assumed I would definitely be resentful.
But many of my peers share childcare equally with the fathers of their kids. I even know a lot of stay at home fathers who love their jobs.
You certainly don't have to have a child if you don't want one. But (in my opinion) you shouldn't let the shortcomings of society in this arena keep you from something you want. The only way to change it is to be an example of something else.
@Slumdog_Mamabear: me too, also the percocet meant that I was so smacked out for the first six weeks that i didn't even really find it that hard, everything was just lovely and hazy.
@ellaesther: @ellaesther: Much better, but it was a long time. I managed to open myself up a bit while laughing at John Stewart as well. They should send me round to jr. high classes to talk to girls about pregnancy. I think I would solve any teen pregnancy crisis we are having.
@Beat Girl: I don't know. I'm not ready to banish all there is about free markets and competition, but there are certain things in our laws that definitely need change. Maternity/Paternity leaves being one of them, along with basic health insurance.
@Beat Girl: It's actually even worse than that. It works for people who have power, and they have power because of capitalism, so they think it works for everyone, so they proceed accordingly.
@Beat Girl: Oh it works - left unchecked, it evolves into a quagmire of global pyramid schemes.
Greed is so precariously enmeshed in the success of capitalism, that if unwatched, it will surface and take control of the markets at every level. As we have seen, these last couple years.
@Jack_Burton: Nothing I said was premised on their caring. I'm sure they don't. Businesses have one goal only: to increase profits. People are expendable. Everyone knows this.
My coworker stopped working, like, 5 days before she had her baby. My boss, unmarried man who works 24/7 and never puts down his blackberry, was trying to contact her to ask her work questions the day she was in labor. Society in general is just as bad as the government laws are in terms of not giving new parents their time and space.
That's why I plan on marrying rich. Then my husband can support me while I give birth to our babies, because no rational employer would ever dream of making space for such petty medical/biological reasons like "birthin'."
@goodgirlrevolution: 3 months UNpaid, IF you're lucky enough to work for a place that give that. Most women where I work (the fed) save up sick leave for years so they can take off a couple months after having a baby and still bring in a paycheck.
@SmallbutMighty: My jaw actually just dropped. I was outraged at the concept of 12 weeks, but 12 weeks UNPAID??? I know I am being naive and I apologize, but I just don't get it. In Canada, you get a full year (which can split in any way with a spouse) PAID leave. For most professions, it's not FULL pay, but it is at least 60%.
@goodgirlrevolution: And this would be why I was with a babysitter at 7 days old... so that my mom could go back to work. Not that I remember it or anything, but damn...
@dj_chick: so was i (with a babysitter within a week of my mum giving birth that is), the difference is that that was the early 1970s and in the time since my birth the UK has completely changed its attitude for the better.
@goodgirlrevolution: In the UK you get paid leave for 6 months and you can take up to a year. There are also laws in place to allow you to take a "career break" for 2 or 3 years. Being from the US originally this always seemed completely amazing to me!
@goodgirlrevolution: One thing to remember is that it really depends on where you work. The FMLA described is what they legally have to do. Some companies give three months paid leave, some put employees on disability and they get a percentage of their salary. No one gets a year though.
@goodgirlrevolution: 3 months seems like way too little, but a whole yer seems very long to me. Are there any limits on this? Like you can't be hired at 25 and work for 3 months before having 7 children nearly back to back, taking a year with each birth, totally paid?
@LaFemme: I can only speak from my personal experience as a teacher in Ontario. My sister in law is also a teacher: she was hired in September and went on maternity leave in December and took an entire year with FULL pay (teachers in Ontario have a pretty sweet deal for the most part).
@clevernamehere: fmla can also be used for leave to take care of a sick family member. it's multipurpose, and they cannot fire you.
a good friend of mine just gave birth but was horrifically sick when she was in her first and second trimester. she took tons of time off and called it fmla time. when she got well enough to work, she worked up until her due date. most women have to...they figure they'd rather work while pregnant even if they feel awful to ensure that they will have time off once the baby comes.
mysteriously, countries like norway and denmark that have very generous family leave programs have better quality of life, lower unemployment and strong economies. weird right!?
@Gumbina80: if i was denmark, i'd be worried about the lower birth rates. they're going to need future citizens to pay the taxes that will keep all the now-young-but-soon-to-be-old folks in proper care.
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W/o revamping the entire US employment system, of which a majority of states are right to work states, there is little that can be done.
Do some jobs only offer the FMLA minimum? Yes. Are all jobs required to offer the FMLA minimum? No. Do I think that all jobs should offer the FMLA minimum? No. With the current restrictions (50 employees, at least 12 mos service, plus 1,250 hours) we don't cripple small businesses that absolutely CANNOT afford to offer FMLA time to all employees in the scenario that all ask for it. I do not think that the donut shop around the corner that has 10 employees should be required to offer mandatory FMLA leave (which covers more than leave for women btw), such that a company with 50+ would be required.
Right to work, or, employment at will works for both the employer and the employee. There are a lot of things that happen in the employment relationship that are maybe unfair, but certainly aren't unlawful. And the trend towards categorizing things that are unfair as unlawful bother me to say the least. Who draws the line? Who creates the bright line between employer and employee?
The U.S. doesn't have the system to accommodate the change.
Seriously, I'd rather see universal health care--which to me is a more important bone to pick--than 12 weeks off unpaid care for a business that has less than 50 employees.
05/11/09
12 months paid maternity leave actually has some downsides for women if they are trying to climb the corporate ladder. But we could make everyone offer 3 months paid maternity/paternity leave with an option for a further 9 months unpaid. The federal government could pick up the tab for small businesses to offer maternity leave. We already require that jobs be kept open for reservists.
I'd rather have universal health care too, but I think we could do more than we do now. I also think that people need to be more aware of how these benefits are offered in other countries and how that could translate to the US.
05/11/09
But who cares what type of circumstance the people are in? They can always find young, unmarried, childless people to do the job, because they'll have more time to devote to their work. It's disgusting and a total slap in the face for adding to the population, like you're expected to in our society.
If they don't change this policy on paid leave, then it's definitely going to impact my future family planning. I might end up not having kids at all!
05/11/09
One of the very few perks of working for a law firm is that they are so worried about getting sued, they rarely screw you over with regard to disability, pregnancy, sexual harassment, etc. I've been sexually harassed at work, and when I reported it, it was immediately rectified. They do NOT want to be sued.
(And no, I don't make crazy money at a fancy law fim - most people, like me, work for regular 'ol law firms that pay decent salaries).
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Of course when everyone starts to offer these sorts of "perks," then loyalty will have to won more creatively. But I'm not sure that'll be an issue in the foreseeable future.
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Lucky me got to have a d and c right after giving birth!
Doctor-FAIL!
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My husband and I did what was right for us and I chose to stay home. If I had been forced into this or if it had just been assumed I would definitely be resentful.
But many of my peers share childcare equally with the fathers of their kids. I even know a lot of stay at home fathers who love their jobs.
You certainly don't have to have a child if you don't want one. But (in my opinion) you shouldn't let the shortcomings of society in this arena keep you from something you want. The only way to change it is to be an example of something else.
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Greed is so precariously enmeshed in the success of capitalism, that if unwatched, it will surface and take control of the markets at every level. As we have seen, these last couple years.
05/11/09
Among the most powerful and successful CEOs, are sociopaths whose very illness is what guarantees their success with shareholders.
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Everything in the US varies.
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a good friend of mine just gave birth but was horrifically sick when she was in her first and second trimester. she took tons of time off and called it fmla time. when she got well enough to work, she worked up until her due date. most women have to...they figure they'd rather work while pregnant even if they feel awful to ensure that they will have time off once the baby comes.
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