Margaret Carlson is where I would be with this if I could muster the energy to truly care. But I don't watch Letterman, and Palin has been invited to STFU for nearly a year now, and has declined. Part of me wishes she'd keep talking. The more she says, the better 2012 looks for those of us who aren't afraid of intellectualism.
Y'all want to know what I want? I want Triumph the Comic Dog to make all of these jokes directed at Sarah and Bristol Palin. Then Sarah can wage war against an ugly puppet.
I'm very ashamed at now for jumping all over this without studying it first (IMO). It would be one thing if Palin said, "please respect my family and keep your misogynistic views off of us," and let that be that. But she had to turn it into a pedophilia shit storm because she could. It makes us all look stupid. Letterman apologized, and other than the slutty flight attendant crack, if he thought it was Bristol I don't think he needed to. He was using the event to make fun of lecherous men, I think, and therefore I thought it was funny.
Can this be the last post about this unless something really, really major happens? I mean, what else does she really want out of Letterman at this point? She's not in it to help the woman's movement, she's in it to add to her 15 minutes of fame.
His comments were sexist. They objectified women, I don't care how old they were, they were reduced to nothing but a sum total of their sex appeal. It wasn't funny. If this makes me the humorless feminist Ms. Carlson is so apparently disgusted by then so be it.
I'm sick of hearing "what if this were the Obama girls".
They're SEVEN and TEN.
Everyone knows Letterman meant Bristol, the 18 year old with a child who does interviews and throws herself into the media spotlight. Jokes aren't the news. They didn't need to fact check who was on the trip for Christ's sake.
I despise sexism but it bothers me even more when someone fakes outrage over serious issues. The fact that the Palins used words like "rape" when it wasn't meant like that DISGUSTS me. I refuse to defend or feel sorry for someone who does that in the hopes it will keep their Presidential dream alive.
@labeled: If she hadn't started this "feud", there would have been nothing. Not even a discussion.
Comedy isn't politically correct. Have your problems with that, fine. But what Sarah Palin is doing is bullshit. I'd bet anything that she isn't THAT outraged. Countless jokes have been made about all politicians and they aren't issuing statements every chance they get.
She's practically calling Letterman a pedophile now. A politician doing that is more outrageous than jokes made on a late night comedy program.
@victoriasauce: Agreed. Some of the funniest comedy is, in fact, the crassest. And Letterman makes jokes about everyone, regardless of gender. This thing has been blown way out of proportion.
@victoriasauce: I agree whole heartedly. What bothers me is that there ARE so many comedians making vile jokes, really deeply misogynist, almost violent jokes about women all the time. And nobody gives a shit. And the Letterman jokes ... the slutty flight attendant joke was the only one that was really offensive. Seriously. And that's the one they're mostly ignoring, because it gets way more mileage in the press to wave the blood of an innocent, doe-eyed teenager.
They're USING us. That's what bothers me. And we're falling for it hook, line and sinker. They don't give a crap about how women are treated by the media--what they care about is that Sarah Palin IS covered by the media. It's like Speidi for God's sake! As long as she's in the press, it's a good thing. And we're helping her stay in the press.
She isn't reacting appropriately to being called a slut in public?
Does she seem to vehement? Is she too angry?
Look, I really hate this woman and her politics, but the way this dialouge is playing out isn't doing any of us any favors. It's not ok to dismiss women as "slutty." It's not. It's not. It's not.
And the one who has been so dismissed does not need to meet certain public expectations in order to deserve sympathy. This is really horrible.
@Dizzy8: I would agree with you but she's not even talking about the comment made about her "slutty flight attendant" look. She's rallying the troops for the protect of her daughters and young women everywhere which is completely baseless since Letterman never even made fun of her daughters to begin with.
@Dizzy8: Her "look" was called "slutty stewardess". Which is legitimate comedian fodder. I would have called it "slutty librarian" or "hot for teacher"- but, the same principle. Sarah Palin is way too aware of her public persona not to realize the look she is going for and achieving. I have no bones with anyone calling it out as it is. She doesn't get to hide behind her gender like a shield when she uses it as a sword to injure the rest of us women.
@librariesare4lovers: this may not be where she's headed, but if we think it's okay to dismiss women because they're (baselessly) "slutty", then yeah. we do need to rally the troops.
@clarafier: @Dizzy8: I don't think I understand what you guys are saying. Do you think she's being dismissed b/c people think she looks like a slut? Cuz I def don't think they are. I think they are dismissing her b/c her claim that her daughters were attacked by Letterman is total B.S.
@clarafier: He made ajoke about A-Rod knocking her up which to me was more about calling A-Rod a sleaze who can't keep it in his pants than calling Bristol a slut (which I don't think it does at all).
@clarafier: Bristol is fair game. I'm sorry but you don't get to make "that" quote on the cover of People for all the world to see without a joke or two. You know, Letterman makes jokes about people. So what? Neither are Sarah and Bristol protected because of their gender. Sarah uses her Republican/Fundie sex appeal like a battering ram. Bristol, or her mother, has used her pregnancy as entree into her 15 minutes of fame. If what Letterman makes jokes about is part of your lever into fame- it's all fair.
Letterman made some very sexist remarks, she exxagerated her reaction. Why are we beating up on her more than him?
I don't like the way this is playing out. It's too much like, "I don't approve of guys being grabby at the office, but THAT girl had it coming." Or, "I would never say it's ok to hit a woman, but SHE'S kind of crazy and maybe there are two sides." Or, "Well, she says it's rape now, but what do we know..."
We're talking about her character and her reactions, instead of the sexist behavior. And we're the very people who normally want to oppose sexism. It's just depressing. @librariesare4lovers:
@Dizzy8: Your metaphor makes no sense to me. The only sexist remark Letterman made was the one about Palin's looks and Palin isn't addressing the comment at all. She's talking about the remakes he made about Spitzer and A-Rod which were in no way sexist towards her daughters at all. If she WAS trying to argue about the "slutty looks" comment he made I would agree with her but this whole thing about her exploiting her daughters and activating statutory rape are baseless.
@Dizzy8: We are beating up on her more than him because she is being a super-hypocrite. Letterman didn't grab her or hit her or rape her- STOP RIGHT THERE. Letterman is a comedian of national standing who made a joke at the expense of a fame-seeking politician and her fame-seeking daughter, Bristol. That's it. He apologized when he was shown to be in error and his joke was shown to have been directed at a minor rather than the intended Bristol. He is not legthening the pubic drama one iota.
Palin is getting her ass kicked becasue she is a political shill dresssed up like a sexy librarian. Who is more inclined to make sexy, eye-winking jokes rather than understand world affairs. She feels entitled to the vice-presidency becasue she looks good in three inch heels and believes women ahould not be allowed abortions- not because of her education, intellect, or experience.
She has worked her daughter's underage pregnancy into a platform and she doesn't seem the least bit ashamed of her actions- as a crappy mother .
Finally, because she wants to run for elected office but free speech, discourse, and jokes piss her off. She is a horrible person who is only uses her gender for her selfish purposes. She could care less about women and women's rights.
I just completely disagree. I was horrified by Don Imus, I hated the way Hillary had to always defend herself against thats-just-what-women-can-expect attacks, and I'm offended by Dave's behavior.
I don't see any up side to minimizing his "jokes" or attacking her character, however much I dislike her or her politics.
It's not about her. It's about a man shaming a woman in public, and everyone piling on, or trying to excuse him, because she isn't someone they like. Allowing this will only hurt everyone. @lolacat:
@Dizzy8: "It's about a man shaming a woman in public, and everyone piling on, or trying to excuse him, because she isn't someone they like." If this is what was happening here I'd agree with you but it's not.
@lolacat: I don't believe you're spewing sexist bullshit. If you had said
"WOMEN ARE getting THEIR assES kicked becasue THEY ARE political shillS dresssed up like sexy librarianS. Who ARE more inclined to make sexy, eye-winking jokes rather than understand world affairs. THEY feel entitled to the vice-presidency becasue THEY look good in three inch heels and believe women ahould not be allowed abortions- not because of THEIR education, intellect, or experience"
then maybe Kiss Berry Wish would have a point; however, all that said about Palin is absolutely true. She tried to skate through the elections on well-tailored suits, rather than actual intelligence or qualifications. Calling her out on being lame is not sexist.
Palin being a sexist does not make sexism against her ok.
Palin being opportunitistic does not make Dave right.
Palin being a bitch does not make it ok when she's attacked.
This piling on does nothing good.
I'm upset by Palin's behavior during the campaign too, but I'm more upset by anyone who would try to say that she doesn't need defending or she's just as bad as he is. @misspell:
@Dizzy8: I disagree- this is all about her. She is the one milking this thing to make sure she has wrung every ounce of outrage or pity out of the country.
If I appear to be attacking her character, I'm not sure what to say. I think she is a bad person. No doubt about it. I've heard bad things about her and I believe them. I believe she is vindictive and manipulative, and corrupt. That goes hand in hand with what I believe about her politics. She is a poor excuse for an elected leader.
I just don't find the jokes that big of a deal. He is doing his job- making jokes about public figures. She is doing her job- spinning as much time as possible out of those jokes. I just don't think he shamed her in public. Not in a way that was inappropriate. Sarah Palin is a politician- therefore she can be legitimately shamed for her politics. Also, because she is one of those people who believes wholeheartedly in that the personal is politics- She is fair, fair game. Her use of her femininity as a weapon is fair game.
Now- about her daughters. I still believe that Bristol is fair game. If you want to be the poster child for Republican/fundie abstinence and tell all the other girls that sex is just not worth it- then you are fair game. Cuz' you know what- safe sex is worth it. Totally worth it. So jokes about a young woman who is working her unplanned pregnancy nation-wide for her mother's fame and/or run for the White House in 2012 - totally fair game.
The minor- not fair game. And Dave apologized for what was a mostly understandable error.
Really? Did Obama open himself up to racist jokes by entering politics?
You're basically saying a woman can make herself "fair game" through her behavior. Why are you so insistent on that point? Do you really think someone has to earn the right to be protected? We're feminists. We oppose sexism against anyone. We are people of common sense. We oppose Sarah Palin's politics, but we do not want to see her attacked.
If liberals could have pulled off this attitude, with grace, from the start, we wouldn't have to deal with the shit storm she's created. She can now legitimately say that liberals are ok with her being insulted, and we lose. If nothing else, it's poor politics :)
"Palin being a sexist does not make sexism against her ok."
I don't agree with sexism. I also don't think this is a case of rampant sexism. It's a case of late-night talk show host making shitty jokes, which is what every late-night talk show does. They are equal-opportunity haters.
"Palin being opportunitistic does not make Dave right."
Right about what? He wasn't claiming to be offering facts; he was making jokes. That's his job. He made jokes about McCain being old and ugly - where was this uproar then?
"Palin being a bitch does not make it ok when she's attacked."
Depends on what she's being attacked for. If she's being attacked for being a bitch, then I think it's okay. I know that's not what was happening here, but she wasn't being attacked at all, really. What, the flight attendant joke? What if Tina Fey had made that joke? Would it have been sexist then?
"This piling on does nothing good."
What piling on, exactly? Letterman's not piling on anyone; if anything, she's piling on him by doing the media rounds to address this overblown non-event.
Palin being a sexist makes sexism against her merely more complicated. However, a comedian's jokes is not necesarily bad-sexism in my book. Comedian's get to say the unsayable and it is a healthy thing- when used correctly.
Being opportunistic merely makes her a more desirable target. And since she spends so much of her time enlarging the target she presents in the name of her political career- I just can't care when someone "hits that".
As to being a bitch- ditto, above.
Palin is a moronic example of Repub/fundie politics. She has almost stopped being a person and become a symbol of bad and obstinate politics - in the public consciousness. It's like saying Tom Cruise does not represent all of scientology. Of course, he doesn't. Except when we are using him as an example for all scientologists.
I have trouble defending her on such murky waters. I know, I'm a bitch and a bad feminist but I have to cry estoppel on Palin.
@Dizzy8: What are you talking about? Do not bring race into this. It doesn't belong and you are just amping the rhetoric for no good reason. A politician is fair game. I am very insistent on that point. A politician's platform (both said and unsaid) are also fair game. Also, I am insistent.
1. By fair game- I mean for critics and comedians to lob word-bombs. John Stewrat gets to lambast. Stephen Colbert can pretend she is his best friend.
2. Yes- some women lose some of the protections of feminism - at least my feminism. Sorry. You act against the interests of women, I'm not going to work really hard to protect you from all the tiny slings and arrows (i.e, telling a woman she is dressed like a slutty stewardess). Also, comedy is not the same as an attack upon one's feminism. If you want to call Linda Hirshman an ignorant slut- be my guest. I'll snicker because it was always funny when Chevy Chase called Jane an ignorant slut. And, I don't like Linda Hirshman.
3. What is the problem with comedians? C'mon. They get a special dispensation from God to say wholly inappropriate things. Would you be at all irritated if all these jokes came from Triumph the Comic Dog. Or would you simply roll your eyes.
4. She wants to be vice-president but she screams misogyny at the stupidest joke. C'mon, put on your big girl panties. If you want to break the shit out of the glass ceiling you need to take the vitriol with more grace, substance, and wit. It's annoyng to me knowing that she is no fan of women's rights but she wants us to come to her defense. That she would happily erode our rights but she doesn't mind using us to whip David Letterman for her and his minor offense of bad jokery. She wants to be a non-feminist- then be one. All the way- don't expect me to help her out when she doesn't like the word-bombs thrown her way.
I would hope that if Dave had made a watermelon or fried chicken joke about Michael Steele, that we would be able to see it as awful, rather than, "What comedians do..."
Humor based on a person's race or sex isn't ok, and feminists who tolerate it when they dislike the target are not doing anyone any favors. Get off her back. You're just making her case for her. @lolacat:
@Dizzy8: Again, bringing race into the discussion is a giant, steaming load of rhetorical crap. You point me to the part of the joke that you think was equivalent to your Michael Steele/watermelon-fried chicken theory, and we can discuss it like sane people. Otherwise, stop using the "first line of my post is provocative" style of argument.
@Dizzy8: That's...that's not really the same thing, and it's sort of weird that you're reaching for those racial stereotypes in this context. The joke that Letterman made about her was specific to her, not a broad generalization like your watermelon/chicken thing. He didn't make a joke about, say, PMS, or shopping (though in her case he could've - remember that snafu?). While it might have been a tasteless joke, it doesn't in any way run parallel to the type of racial stereotypes that you're holding up.
@Dizzy8: Also, I was "on her back" long before David Letterman made his jokes and will continue to be "on her back" until she no longer holds elected office or threatens to hold one. She is a danger to women's rights.
You're being personally attacking because you don't like my analogy. Dave called her and her daughters sluts, in public. She has the right to be upset about that. You have these long, involved rationalizations going, but nothing answers the basic question:
As a feminist, why is it ok to call a woman in politics a slut? Why should she have a sense of humor? Why is yet another tired joke about her clothes okeydokey with a bunch of people today?
This is exactly like the nappy hair comment Don Imus made, and attacking her will only hurt women. @lolacat:
Are you KIDDING ME? Watermelon is generic, but slutty flight attendant is specific to "that woman?" You have to realize how messed up and woman shaming that is.
I agree that a joke about PMS would be more obvious, but "That lady dresses like a tramp," aimed at a former candidate for the vice presidency, is awful. @misspell:
You know, the only reason to defend Dave's comments the way you two are is because you think he's right, that Palin does dress like a slut, that her daughter(s) get knocked up easily, and that it's ok to call her out on it in public. Is this who we are?
It makes me sad, and I think it makes feminists look bad. At the very least, it gives Palin a fairly good reason to keep talking. @Dizzy8:
@Dizzy8: You are right, I hate your analogy. And I think it is relevant to point out you are the only one who seems to be dragging racial stereotypes and screaming "It's just like that!" I don't believe it is.
I answered your question in the first post, I made. He didn't call her a slut. No one in their right mind believes she is a slut. A lot of people, however, agree that she works the "slutty stewardess" look quite effectively. And, I think purposefully so calling her out on it is not a sin in my eyes. It is part of her platform and purpose to the Republican party. You think they chose her and dressed her that way on accident? No. They spent a lot of money perfecting her look. That makes it fair game to me. Her clothes are part of why she is a crappy politician. She is more concerned with her image and her heels than she is with understanding the economy. Again, a fair point to call her out on.
Finally- Sarah Palin is what she wants to be. She is projecting the image she wants, for her purposes, and to advance her agenda. You want to compare that to nappy hair comments, I will respectfully disagree and leave the race-baiting to you.
@Dizzy8: Yes, slutty flight attendant is specific. It's not a generalization made about all women. Generalizations about women: PMS, shopping, bad drivers, nagging wives. Nobody thinks all women look like slutty flight attendants.
Palin can project the image she wants. That is her right. It still doesn't make slut shaming public jokes ok. She is a woman in the public eye, and parsing out which women look slutty enough to be joked about is insane.
You're really never going to get the basic point: Palin doesn't have to deserve protection from sexism. Comments based on her clothes looking "slutty" are sexist. Her actual clothes are irrelevant.
Slut shaming is not ok. The jokes were slut shaming. That is woman-based humor. Dave's an ass. There is no political or personal upside to letting Dave be an ass to a woman in the public eye. @lolacat:
@Dizzy8: "You know, the only reason to defend Dave's comments the way you two are is because you think he's right, that Palin does dress like a slut, that her daughter(s) get knocked up easily, and that it's ok to call her out on it in public. Is this who we are?"
You said all that. I never did. I have never called her or her daughter a slut.
I save the term "slut" for close friends. I strictly use the word "whore" for women I don't like.
@Dizzy8: Whoa there. I don't believe that she dresses like a slut. I don't think her daughters get knocked up easily. Your assumption is baseless and seems oddly defensive. I also don't believe that being a good feminist means freaking out when a comedian makes a joke about a politician - in fact, THAT makes feminists look bad. So a bunch of people get all up in arms about a couple of jokes and what's gonna happen? Comedians are going to have to be all-PC all the time? Ridiculous!
Please don't claim to know what I think. And please no more with the racial stuff. Your willingness to bang on the racial stereotypes also makes feminism look bad - this discussion should be able to happen without bringing that kind of discourse into it.
I completely agree with Greg Sargent: Palin loves this attention! And while Letterman is taking a lot of shit about all of this, I think it might be a positive thing, in that it's turning Palin into more of a Heidi-Montag/TV-Personality/caricature, which will hopefully serve to make people take her even less seriously than they do already. David Letterman fucks up and he's got a media storm; a politician fucks up and the public suffers. If she stoops to obsessing about this stuff to get in the public eye, hopefully it'll hurt any chances of political advancement.
THIS: "You're kidding yourself if you don't think Sarah Palin is absolutely thrilled to be in a big fight with David Letterman over degrading things he said about her and her daughter." Seriously, she sees this as another opportunity to make herself into a victim and relatable. She cannot stop campaigning! She has no intention of going away quietly and will take every step necessary to stay in the public eye.
@heywhat: Let's hope she does. As said above, there goes Palin 2012! Hey everyone, remember that woman who spouted her mouth off on every and any topic on Fox News all day long?
We might as well elect Anderson Cooper, if those are the standards. Oooo, wait. Mmmmm, President Cooper.
would we all be so quick to defend david letterman if he said this about clinton, pelosi, or mrs. o? maybe i just don't like this because david letterman is pretty much always a rude prick.
Frankly, this whole thing is a case of the blind fighting the blind. In one corner, Sarah Palin, who still has not awoken to the fact that her politics are not what everyone wants. In the other corner, David Letterman, who has yet to realize that he's not that funny.
Let's get it over with -- put up a boxing ring outside Fox News, put them in gloves, and let them have at each other. One can only hope they pummel each other to death. While they bludgeon each other, I'll be trying to figure out why society seems to be coming apart at the seams and how we can change it.
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And, count me as the one person in the world that doesn't buy that it was a mistake.
You'd have to live under a fucking rock in Idaho not to remember that Bristol was the older/pregnant one.
And if Dave didn't want a shitstorm, he wouldn't have picked ANY of the Palin girls. No innocent parties here, IMO.
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He said it was mistake b/c Palin accused him of talking about her daughter Willow. He said no- I was talking about Bristol.
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They're SEVEN and TEN.
Everyone knows Letterman meant Bristol, the 18 year old with a child who does interviews and throws herself into the media spotlight. Jokes aren't the news. They didn't need to fact check who was on the trip for Christ's sake.
I despise sexism but it bothers me even more when someone fakes outrage over serious issues. The fact that the Palins used words like "rape" when it wasn't meant like that DISGUSTS me. I refuse to defend or feel sorry for someone who does that in the hopes it will keep their Presidential dream alive.
06/12/09
I'd be offended if it were YOU.
I don't like Palin or her Bumpass family, but shit, as a woman/mother/feminist, wtf am I supposed to do? Give a pass based on a "mistaken" joke?
06/12/09
Comedy isn't politically correct. Have your problems with that, fine. But what Sarah Palin is doing is bullshit. I'd bet anything that she isn't THAT outraged. Countless jokes have been made about all politicians and they aren't issuing statements every chance they get.
She's practically calling Letterman a pedophile now. A politician doing that is more outrageous than jokes made on a late night comedy program.
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They're USING us. That's what bothers me. And we're falling for it hook, line and sinker. They don't give a crap about how women are treated by the media--what they care about is that Sarah Palin IS covered by the media. It's like Speidi for God's sake! As long as she's in the press, it's a good thing. And we're helping her stay in the press.
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Does she seem to vehement? Is she too angry?
Look, I really hate this woman and her politics, but the way this dialouge is playing out isn't doing any of us any favors. It's not ok to dismiss women as "slutty." It's not. It's not. It's not.
And the one who has been so dismissed does not need to meet certain public expectations in order to deserve sympathy. This is really horrible.
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I don't like the way this is playing out. It's too much like, "I don't approve of guys being grabby at the office, but THAT girl had it coming." Or, "I would never say it's ok to hit a woman, but SHE'S kind of crazy and maybe there are two sides." Or, "Well, she says it's rape now, but what do we know..."
We're talking about her character and her reactions, instead of the sexist behavior. And we're the very people who normally want to oppose sexism. It's just depressing. @librariesare4lovers:
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Palin is getting her ass kicked becasue she is a political shill dresssed up like a sexy librarian. Who is more inclined to make sexy, eye-winking jokes rather than understand world affairs. She feels entitled to the vice-presidency becasue she looks good in three inch heels and believes women ahould not be allowed abortions- not because of her education, intellect, or experience.
She has worked her daughter's underage pregnancy into a platform and she doesn't seem the least bit ashamed of her actions- as a crappy mother .
Finally, because she wants to run for elected office but free speech, discourse, and jokes piss her off. She is a horrible person who is only uses her gender for her selfish purposes. She could care less about women and women's rights.
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When did that get voted in?
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I don't see any up side to minimizing his "jokes" or attacking her character, however much I dislike her or her politics.
It's not about her. It's about a man shaming a woman in public, and everyone piling on, or trying to excuse him, because she isn't someone they like. Allowing this will only hurt everyone.
@lolacat:
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"WOMEN ARE getting THEIR assES kicked becasue THEY ARE political shillS dresssed up like sexy librarianS. Who ARE more inclined to make sexy, eye-winking jokes rather than understand world affairs. THEY feel entitled to the vice-presidency becasue THEY look good in three inch heels and believe women ahould not be allowed abortions- not because of THEIR education, intellect, or experience"
then maybe Kiss Berry Wish would have a point; however, all that said about Palin is absolutely true. She tried to skate through the elections on well-tailored suits, rather than actual intelligence or qualifications. Calling her out on being lame is not sexist.
06/12/09
Palin being opportunitistic does not make Dave right.
Palin being a bitch does not make it ok when she's attacked.
This piling on does nothing good.
I'm upset by Palin's behavior during the campaign too, but I'm more upset by anyone who would try to say that she doesn't need defending or she's just as bad as he is. @misspell:
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If I appear to be attacking her character, I'm not sure what to say. I think she is a bad person. No doubt about it. I've heard bad things about her and I believe them. I believe she is vindictive and manipulative, and corrupt. That goes hand in hand with what I believe about her politics. She is a poor excuse for an elected leader.
I just don't find the jokes that big of a deal. He is doing his job- making jokes about public figures. She is doing her job- spinning as much time as possible out of those jokes. I just don't think he shamed her in public. Not in a way that was inappropriate. Sarah Palin is a politician- therefore she can be legitimately shamed for her politics. Also, because she is one of those people who believes wholeheartedly in that the personal is politics- She is fair, fair game. Her use of her femininity as a weapon is fair game.
Now- about her daughters. I still believe that Bristol is fair game. If you want to be the poster child for Republican/fundie abstinence and tell all the other girls that sex is just not worth it- then you are fair game. Cuz' you know what- safe sex is worth it. Totally worth it. So jokes about a young woman who is working her unplanned pregnancy nation-wide for her mother's fame and/or run for the White House in 2012 - totally fair game.
The minor- not fair game. And Dave apologized for what was a mostly understandable error.
I don't think it hurts everyone.
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You're basically saying a woman can make herself "fair game" through her behavior. Why are you so insistent on that point? Do you really think someone has to earn the right to be protected? We're feminists. We oppose sexism against anyone. We are people of common sense. We oppose Sarah Palin's politics, but we do not want to see her attacked.
If liberals could have pulled off this attitude, with grace, from the start, we wouldn't have to deal with the shit storm she's created. She can now legitimately say that liberals are ok with her being insulted, and we lose. If nothing else, it's poor politics :)
@lolacat:
06/12/09
"Palin being a sexist does not make sexism against her ok."
I don't agree with sexism. I also don't think this is a case of rampant sexism. It's a case of late-night talk show host making shitty jokes, which is what every late-night talk show does. They are equal-opportunity haters.
"Palin being opportunitistic does not make Dave right."
Right about what? He wasn't claiming to be offering facts; he was making jokes. That's his job. He made jokes about McCain being old and ugly - where was this uproar then?
"Palin being a bitch does not make it ok when she's attacked."
Depends on what she's being attacked for. If she's being attacked for being a bitch, then I think it's okay. I know that's not what was happening here, but she wasn't being attacked at all, really. What, the flight attendant joke? What if Tina Fey had made that joke? Would it have been sexist then?
"This piling on does nothing good."
What piling on, exactly? Letterman's not piling on anyone; if anything, she's piling on him by doing the media rounds to address this overblown non-event.
06/12/09
Palin being a sexist makes sexism against her merely more complicated. However, a comedian's jokes is not necesarily bad-sexism in my book. Comedian's get to say the unsayable and it is a healthy thing- when used correctly.
Being opportunistic merely makes her a more desirable target. And since she spends so much of her time enlarging the target she presents in the name of her political career- I just can't care when someone "hits that".
As to being a bitch- ditto, above.
Palin is a moronic example of Repub/fundie politics. She has almost stopped being a person and become a symbol of bad and obstinate politics - in the public consciousness. It's like saying Tom Cruise does not represent all of scientology. Of course, he doesn't. Except when we are using him as an example for all scientologists.
I have trouble defending her on such murky waters. I know, I'm a bitch and a bad feminist but I have to cry estoppel on Palin.
06/12/09
1. By fair game- I mean for critics and comedians to lob word-bombs. John Stewrat gets to lambast. Stephen Colbert can pretend she is his best friend.
2. Yes- some women lose some of the protections of feminism - at least my feminism. Sorry. You act against the interests of women, I'm not going to work really hard to protect you from all the tiny slings and arrows (i.e, telling a woman she is dressed like a slutty stewardess). Also, comedy is not the same as an attack upon one's feminism. If you want to call Linda Hirshman an ignorant slut- be my guest. I'll snicker because it was always funny when Chevy Chase called Jane an ignorant slut. And, I don't like Linda Hirshman.
3. What is the problem with comedians? C'mon. They get a special dispensation from God to say wholly inappropriate things. Would you be at all irritated if all these jokes came from Triumph the Comic Dog. Or would you simply roll your eyes.
4. She wants to be vice-president but she screams misogyny at the stupidest joke. C'mon, put on your big girl panties. If you want to break the shit out of the glass ceiling you need to take the vitriol with more grace, substance, and wit. It's annoyng to me knowing that she is no fan of women's rights but she wants us to come to her defense. That she would happily erode our rights but she doesn't mind using us to whip David Letterman for her and his minor offense of bad jokery. She wants to be a non-feminist- then be one. All the way- don't expect me to help her out when she doesn't like the word-bombs thrown her way.
06/12/09
Humor based on a person's race or sex isn't ok, and feminists who tolerate it when they dislike the target are not doing anyone any favors. Get off her back. You're just making her case for her. @lolacat:
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As a feminist, why is it ok to call a woman in politics a slut? Why should she have a sense of humor? Why is yet another tired joke about her clothes okeydokey with a bunch of people today?
This is exactly like the nappy hair comment Don Imus made, and attacking her will only hurt women. @lolacat:
06/12/09
I agree that a joke about PMS would be more obvious, but "That lady dresses like a tramp," aimed at a former candidate for the vice presidency, is awful. @misspell:
06/12/09
It makes me sad, and I think it makes feminists look bad. At the very least, it gives Palin a fairly good reason to keep talking. @Dizzy8:
06/12/09
I answered your question in the first post, I made. He didn't call her a slut. No one in their right mind believes she is a slut. A lot of people, however, agree that she works the "slutty stewardess" look quite effectively. And, I think purposefully so calling her out on it is not a sin in my eyes. It is part of her platform and purpose to the Republican party. You think they chose her and dressed her that way on accident? No. They spent a lot of money perfecting her look. That makes it fair game to me. Her clothes are part of why she is a crappy politician. She is more concerned with her image and her heels than she is with understanding the economy. Again, a fair point to call her out on.
Finally- Sarah Palin is what she wants to be. She is projecting the image she wants, for her purposes, and to advance her agenda. You want to compare that to nappy hair comments, I will respectfully disagree and leave the race-baiting to you.
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06/12/09
You're really never going to get the basic point: Palin doesn't have to deserve protection from sexism. Comments based on her clothes looking "slutty" are sexist. Her actual clothes are irrelevant.
Slut shaming is not ok. The jokes were slut shaming. That is woman-based humor. Dave's an ass. There is no political or personal upside to letting Dave be an ass to a woman in the public eye.
@lolacat:
06/12/09
You said all that. I never did. I have never called her or her daughter a slut.
I save the term "slut" for close friends. I strictly use the word "whore" for women I don't like.
06/12/09
Please don't claim to know what I think. And please no more with the racial stuff. Your willingness to bang on the racial stereotypes also makes feminism look bad - this discussion should be able to happen without bringing that kind of discourse into it.
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We might as well elect Anderson Cooper, if those are the standards. Oooo, wait. Mmmmm, President Cooper.
06/12/09
But David, you fucked up. If it were, I don't know, Rush Limbaugh making a Malia Obama joke, would it still be just as "funny"?
No more. I'm tired.
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I think we sort of feel beholden to have an opinion.
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Fox news CONSTANTLY made/make jokes about all 3 of them.
06/12/09
Let's get it over with -- put up a boxing ring outside Fox News, put them in gloves, and let them have at each other. One can only hope they pummel each other to death. While they bludgeon each other, I'll be trying to figure out why society seems to be coming apart at the seams and how we can change it.
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Anyone that makes me defend Palin & her merry band of Bumpasses goes straight to the top of my shitlist.
06/12/09