Did anyone else think that the conclusions reached by the show (lift up one woman and you save her entire community) was overly simplistic? We are no more perfect creatures than are men, so lifting up one woman may result in nothing more than lifting up that ONE WOMAN - there's NO guarantee that she'll be the kind to pass it on or use the opportunity for the good of others.
@LazyHippo: You can give a child prostitute a scholarship, good education and a doctorate in medecine but it doesn't mean she'll go back to the village to practice!
@sybann: There are a lot of statistics showing that most women who receive micro-loans use the money well. There are many real success stories. They didn't mention that a woman who ends up with a herd of cows, for example, might be killed, her herd stolen by men. The plan may be idealistic but better than doing nothing. There's no way to change social oppression in someone else's culture, so the solution has to be economic.
@slauza: I didn't say it wasn't - I said (in my first comment) that I was disturbed somewhat by the assumption they were making that it was inevitable.
Since women are primary caregivers of children they are most likely going to be concerned about more than themselves (and just buying beer and candy - which was what was said about the men), but it seemed that it was implied during the show that it always was better to help a woman.
I can certainly get behind the effort - and have made micro loans myself - with NO expectation of repayment or even thanks.
It just seemed to me that (again) an Oprah show wasn't telling an entire story entirely truthfully.
whew! I just read every comment and all my tiny pea brain kept playing over and over was an image of Kristoff and WuDunn on one side of a couch, Oprah in the middle and LaToya on the other side... and LaToya kicking ass and taking names. Intelligently responding and challenging the status quo. Not letting
anyone off the hook and offering sound, logical alternative ways in which we should be approaching change and resolution.
Oprah was flustered. Kristoff was beet red. The audience was slack-jawed. Everyone was WIDE AWAKE!
I think it's sad that the conversation on this comes down to "eh, they could be doing less." Really? I think that most American TV viewers already have the vague perception that people in distant lands are poor and oppressed for, uh, some reason (don't worry about it) and that it's way sad, man, and that if you buy this t-shirt or donate the cost of your cup of coffee or whatever we can... something something, who knows. And people do donate, a little bit, and that helps some people out, a little bit. That's already happening. And until somebody acknowledges that that's band-aid on a huge gaping wound that has deep roots in fucked-up policies that we westerners can hold our own governments accountable for-- it's all that's going to be happening. To parade the victims-without-aggressors heartstrings stuff as groundbreaking efforts against poverty is to be complicit. Same deal when we look at that problem and we're like, "hey, what do you expect from TV?"
Edited by Everything MidnightBikeRide does is a balloon. at 12/01/09 11:35 PM
Everything MidnightBikeRide does is a balloon. was starred
Everything MidnightBikeRide does is a balloon. was unstarred
Well, Latoya, the answer is plainly no. I really think that most men and white people and even, hell, people in the developed world generally, are simply unwilling to admit their complicity as a first step. And without that admission I don't know that there will ever be structural change.
I agree with you, the WuDunn/Kristof excerpts make it seem like women are better then men. That just because a women in power the world would be so much better. I don't believe in that, I believe in equality for all, but I don't believe that females in power are any different from men. Women can be just as cruel and callous as men, women are people. People are capable of extreme cruelty to unending compassion. Their message may be a good one, but using it as a means to end humanities problems is not corrrect.
@ohayou_kun: Did you read the article? Or are you just going off this blog entry? They don't say women are better than men. They say research shows that when aid money is given to women, they are more likely to use it for food and education, then when it is given to men, who are more likely to use it on alcohol and tobacco.
Okay, so I think I get what Anna N. is trying to say - that by focusing on women's issues as a means to something else, then we run the risk of seeing women's issues downgraded if this tactic fails to produce.
I see that, but I think of it a different way, not that women's rights becomes subservient to a larger goal of economic and geopolitical stability, but that it is seen as part and parcel of that larger goal.
Women's issues tend to be relegated to the "pink ghetto" of foreign policy, but this approach instead integrates them into a larger geopolitical framework that sees them not as secondary things to be handled after larger issues of poverty and war are resolved, but as essential aspects of battling those social ills. I prefer the way envisioned by the article, which says, "you know all that stuff world leaders and NGO officials are saying takes precedence over women's issues? Well, those won't go away until you give women's issues precedence." It's holistic and integrative.
I am not articulating myself well, which is frustrating to me. I hope my point is being understood.
International aid is really complicated shit--there's not even consensus within the aid community that it works at all in its current formation (see: Bill Easterly). But, assuming it does, it's still our money. Why not target it towards rewarding behaviors that we think are societally beneficial? The argument isn't that oh noes spendthrift men don't deserve money, it's that we're not going to give our aid money to them because the data bears out that it's not generally spent in a way that furthers our aims of reducing poverty and violence. This happens on a country-by-country basis, too. If all our aid money is spent by dictators on their personal footbaths, or disappears into a black hole of corruption, there's not a whole lot of point to continue sending it to them (unless we're propping them up for some reprehensible reason).
Sure, we're spending the aid money based on our values. But how, exactly, are you supposed to NOT do that? Give it to everyone?
"Is it really their place to determine what spending is wise or unwise?"
Yes, it is. I've seen it all too often in Africa that international donations that go to families and that are controlled solely by the head of the family (i.e. the MAN) ends up as alcohol, gambling, and prostitution.
It's not entirely their fault, these spending habits are also a symptom of poverty. But as long as the money stays in the hand of a category of people that are incapable of investing in health, education, and their own children, the problem will continue for sure.
Although this critique brought up some interesting points, I thought WuDunn/Kristof's article smacked of paternalism in a different way. On the front page of the NYT yesterday, the headline for the Women's Crusade article was "SAVING THE WORLD's WOMEN".
I have issues with the "saving" part, it stinks of colonialistic undertones. How can you make the case for female empowerment in the Global South (because the "World's" apparently doesn't imply gender inequity in Western countries), but tie that empowerment to changing the behavior of the poor through Western interventions based on Western standards? After reading the article, I was bothered by nagging sense of the "white man's burden", especially with it's arguments and strong reliance on foreign aid (a somewhat controverisal topic in international development work/world).
Yes, as humans we have a social compact with to help one another, but in a way that culturally appropriate, culturally sensitive and gives credence to the ways and methods women in the Global South want to uplift and empower themselves.
@shak_diesel: Ok, I agree with some of what you're saying. Yes, the language of "saving" is problematic and makes sounds colonialistic. I also would have liked them to include western countries in their analysis as well, but they were focusing solely on developing countries. This said, when I was emailing this article onto family/friends, I personally made sure to mention that change can and should start within our local communities. It would be nice if journalists would sometimes remember that there is still poverty in western countries as well.
Also, do you think that maybe you got the feeling that the authors are making this a "white man's burden" because the authors themselves are white? Just curious.
There are differences between men and women. I feel the crux of this argument- that women are be less inclined to spend money on alcohol or prostitution is correct. Like or not, people do engage in gendered behaviors. Whether they were socialized to do so, or do out of physiological motivators, doesn't negate the fact that certain tendencies are more prevelant in one sex.
Edited by sydbarrettsaves, emissary of hell at 08/20/09 1:30 PM
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sydbarrettsaves, emissary of hell was unstarred
This is much like the people who used to argue that women should vote because of their 'innate goodness', not their 'innate humanity.' Right direction, but wrong reason.
I read a book this past semester for my Legal Anthropology class about how women's rights all over the world have too long been victim to local male power (government, church, etc.) who are so insistent on keeping the status quo that whenever an outside group, such as people from the West try to intervene, these men start screaming about how the outsiders are trampling their "culture" (of misogyny and abuse). The author of this book argued that when it comes to women's human rights all over the globe, it is indeed appropriate to step in, which is why we have international legal groups made up of representatives from all over the world, and other aid organizations like that.
We can't just keep putting off helping women just because we don't know what the "ends" will be, or that we're making them into some "ideal" that we want - how is it shaping an "ideal" when the goal is simply that children grow up healthy and educated, and women aren't subjected to abuse? The whole idea of relativism and not modifying other cultures from the outside only has so much merit, and becomes increasingly problematic when people's lives and livelihoods are at stake.
I find the idea of "is it our place to determine what spending is wise or unwise" intensely frustrating - it's pretty much the exact situation we have here going on with health care or environmental issues - those who want nothing but FREEDOM and CHOICE, even when their freedom and choice is extremely destructive. Sometimes, those in power have to say "enough is enough". Maybe we don't have to necessarily say "No, Mr. XYZ, you can't spend your money on alcohol," but that's why we need mechanisms in place to give women money - and hence, power - of their own.
Maybe if we followed what the authors of this article are suggesting, we would finally start seeing results in terms of women's equality and decreasing poverty and mortality all over the world.
"Is it really their place to determine what spending is wise and unwise?" They're respected researchers trying to analyze paths out of poverty for families in developing nations. I can't think of anyone more appropriate to make a judgement call on wise and unwise spending patterns. In this case, why are we behaving as if stating that "spending money on alcohol rather than education is a poor choice" is some sort of Western imperialist/paternalist cultural judgement? It's so clearly not.
12/02/09
12/02/09
12/02/09
12/02/09
12/02/09
Since women are primary caregivers of children they are most likely going to be concerned about more than themselves (and just buying beer and candy - which was what was said about the men), but it seemed that it was implied during the show that it always was better to help a woman.
I can certainly get behind the effort - and have made micro loans myself - with NO expectation of repayment or even thanks.
It just seemed to me that (again) an Oprah show wasn't telling an entire story entirely truthfully.
12/01/09
anyone off the hook and offering sound, logical alternative ways in which we should be approaching change and resolution.
Oprah was flustered. Kristoff was beet red. The audience was slack-jawed. Everyone was WIDE AWAKE!
I'm pushing rewind and play.
12/01/09
12/01/09
10/28/09
Angie looks great! #angelinajolie
10/28/09
10/28/09
10/28/09
08/20/09
08/20/09
I really recommend you read the article.
08/20/09
I see that, but I think of it a different way, not that women's rights becomes subservient to a larger goal of economic and geopolitical stability, but that it is seen as part and parcel of that larger goal.
Women's issues tend to be relegated to the "pink ghetto" of foreign policy, but this approach instead integrates them into a larger geopolitical framework that sees them not as secondary things to be handled after larger issues of poverty and war are resolved, but as essential aspects of battling those social ills. I prefer the way envisioned by the article, which says, "you know all that stuff world leaders and NGO officials are saying takes precedence over women's issues? Well, those won't go away until you give women's issues precedence." It's holistic and integrative.
I am not articulating myself well, which is frustrating to me. I hope my point is being understood.
08/20/09
Sure, we're spending the aid money based on our values. But how, exactly, are you supposed to NOT do that? Give it to everyone?
08/20/09
08/20/09
08/20/09
Yes, it is. I've seen it all too often in Africa that international donations that go to families and that are controlled solely by the head of the family (i.e. the MAN) ends up as alcohol, gambling, and prostitution.
It's not entirely their fault, these spending habits are also a symptom of poverty. But as long as the money stays in the hand of a category of people that are incapable of investing in health, education, and their own children, the problem will continue for sure.
08/20/09
I have issues with the "saving" part, it stinks of colonialistic undertones. How can you make the case for female empowerment in the Global South (because the "World's" apparently doesn't imply gender inequity in Western countries), but tie that empowerment to changing the behavior of the poor through Western interventions based on Western standards? After reading the article, I was bothered by nagging sense of the "white man's burden", especially with it's arguments and strong reliance on foreign aid (a somewhat controverisal topic in international development work/world).
Yes, as humans we have a social compact with to help one another, but in a way that culturally appropriate, culturally sensitive and gives credence to the ways and methods women in the Global South want to uplift and empower themselves.
08/20/09
Also, do you think that maybe you got the feeling that the authors are making this a "white man's burden" because the authors themselves are white? Just curious.
08/20/09
08/20/09
08/20/09
08/20/09
We can't just keep putting off helping women just because we don't know what the "ends" will be, or that we're making them into some "ideal" that we want - how is it shaping an "ideal" when the goal is simply that children grow up healthy and educated, and women aren't subjected to abuse? The whole idea of relativism and not modifying other cultures from the outside only has so much merit, and becomes increasingly problematic when people's lives and livelihoods are at stake.
I find the idea of "is it our place to determine what spending is wise or unwise" intensely frustrating - it's pretty much the exact situation we have here going on with health care or environmental issues - those who want nothing but FREEDOM and CHOICE, even when their freedom and choice is extremely destructive. Sometimes, those in power have to say "enough is enough". Maybe we don't have to necessarily say "No, Mr. XYZ, you can't spend your money on alcohol," but that's why we need mechanisms in place to give women money - and hence, power - of their own.
Maybe if we followed what the authors of this article are suggesting, we would finally start seeing results in terms of women's equality and decreasing poverty and mortality all over the world.
08/20/09
08/20/09
08/20/09
08/20/09
08/20/09