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New York, 4:10 AM
Fri Nov 27
2 posts in the last 24 hours
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08/19/09
I lived for 2 years in Saudi Arabia (Jeddah) and nearly 4 years in Egypt (Alexandria, just came back in March 2009.) I'm not only still alive, but am still the cranky Fundamentalist Atheist I have been for a long time.
The weird combination of ignorance and arrogance in these vids is truly astonishing.
For some better info, Google "Souad Saleh." She's a former Dean of Islamic Studies at Egypt's Al-Azhar University - the oldest Islamic college in existence. Saleh frequently gets death threats for her interpretations of the Koran, especially her insistence that the Koran does not require women to cover their faces.
While I was in Egypt, one of the "Ask An Imam" TV shows issued a fatwa saying that married couples should be partly dressed while having sex. Saleh immediately got on the phone and told the Imam he was crazy.
08/19/09
I wonder if some of that is at play here. Certainly, there is a historical distrust of Islam and "the East" in the West, going well back into the middle ages, but the "OMFG TERRORISTS R ENSLAVIN OUR WOMEN!!!" panic seems to be conditioned by instant access to a lot of information (accurate or otherwise) and very little ability/inclination to assess it critically. It's high-tech stimulus and fear response that can propagate itself across thousands of miles in the time it takes to click 'SEND'.
Maybe this is why most people these days make me despair for the world. At any rate, awesome work as always, Latoya! I wish I could channel your spirit and eloquence when I'm faced with stuff like this.
08/19/09
basically, "sharia" means "correct, true, just", et cetera in arabic, and is law based on the sunnah (the words of the prophet as he went about his daily life, as transmitted by his companions and wives to reliable sources who transmitted them in turn to reliable sources who then wrote them down), and the qu'ran.
different branches of islam consider some sources more reliable than others; for example, shia islam might think of a saying transmitted by ali as more reliable, depending on the context, than a sunni muslim might.
then you get into different schools of islamic jurisprudence, such as the 9 schools of sunni islam, and the however many schools of shia islam there are (i have learned more about sunni islam in my graduate program so pardon my ignorance on the shia side of things). some sunni schools welcome thought, reason, and logic more than others. some interpretations of islam, such as the wahhabists in saudi arabia, are super strict.
so yes, technically, a man can have 4 wives. BUT he has to "care" for them equally. some say that this "care" has to be emotional as well as physical, which is impossible. some schools of islam do allow marriage to girls as young as 9; i believe the prophet married aisha when she was around this age.
BUT. this was in the context of 7th century arabia, where an orphaned girl was unwanted and had nowhere to go and no way to make a living. the prophet also married much older women, simply to put a roof over their heads. for 25 years, he only had one wife. it was only after he died that he married many women.
anyway i think a lot of the hysteria about sharia law comes from looking at cultures that have mixed their own local traditions with islam, or at super "strict" interpretations of islam. or just plain ignorance.
08/19/09
Muhammad is objectionable because he was a tribal warlord who personally cut off heads. Ever wonder why there are no Jews on the Arabian peninsula?
Oh, and someone wrote that it was okay for Muhammad to take a nine year-old bride because even Europeans were betrothed as children. That is morally relativistic bullshit. Wrong is wrong. If it was okay for Muhammad, it's okay for the rest of us.
08/19/09
No god but God: The origins, evolution, and future of Islam by Reza Aslan. It's a good introduction to learning about Islam and the misconceptions that float about it.
[bit.ly]
08/19/09
Also, I am a Muslim and I can say that I don't believe it to be a totalitarian system. I do believe that there are a lot of religious leaders who are using the quran and teachings of islam to control others though. And I absolutely disagree with these leaders.
I agree with LaComtesse and I think you should do a little research on Islam before you harshly criticize it.
08/19/09
-Can you bring yourself to say that your middle-aged prophet was wrong to have sex with a teenager, or will you keep equivocating?
-It's nice that you don't think that Islam is a totalitarian system; there are, no doubt, some communists who felt the same way.
-I have done a little research and it's been enough for me to find Islam particularly suspicious. Your prophet spread his faith by the sword.
-Please convince me that there aren't more than a half-billion Muslims who have been taught that Muhammad was the perfect man and should be emulated.
-I don't believe in Jesus, but if I did, I would be comforted that, unlike Muhammad, he never conquered a town, beheaded all the men, and sold all the women and children into slavery.
08/19/09
08/19/09
Can you bring yourself to say that your middle-aged prophet was wrong to have sex with a teenager, or will you keep equivocating?
What part of "this is a widespread historical phenomenon that is not exclusive to Islam, and is in fact practiced currently (if not in the mainstream) in the US" do you not understand?
It's nice that you don't think that Islam is a totalitarian system; there are, no doubt, some communists who felt the same way.
Islam =/= political/economic system. Also, Christianity has done a brilliant job of propagating itself by obtaining its legitimacy through ruling groups, for which see the Roman Empire under Constantine and 1600 years or so subsequently under various governments.
Your prophet spread his faith by the sword.
Again, see Christianity. To wit: the conversions under Constantine, the forced conversions of the Saxons under Charlemagne, the expulsion of the Jews from England under Edward II (IIRC), the Crusades, the Catholic/Protestant wars in Germany, Britain, and Ireland, the crusade subtext behind the US invasion of Iraq a handful of years ago... Do I need to go on?
Please convince me that there aren't more than a half-billion Muslims who have been taught that Muhammad was the perfect man and should be emulated.
Please convince me that there aren't more than a half-billion Christians who have been taught that Jesus was the perfect man who believed in nonviolence and thus all Christians should do their best to convert, forcibly if necessary, all nonbelievers.
I don't believe in Jesus, but if I did, I would be comforted that, unlike Muhammad, he never conquered a town, beheaded all the men, and sold all the women and children into slavery.
Keep thinking that. The beliefs of the originary figure of a religion hardly matter past a certain point. Plenty of God-fearing Christians brutally executed their political enemies and took slaves for themselves. Some of them did the latter as recently as 150 years ago, and some still feel they shouldn't have had that right taken from them.
Try again.
08/19/09
I don't appreciate you saying that i am part of a totalitarian regime. personally, i have spoken out against all the things i find wrong in my religion. for example, i don't believe in wearing hijabs, i don't say the prophet's name when i pray, i perform a different type of wudu, and etc. No matter how much a leaders of Islam may say something i'm doing is immoral, they cannot make me believe it. I only believe what I want to believe about the religion. if i am doing what i want and believing what i want, then how am i part of a totalitarian regime?
This is the first time i ever heard of muhammad beheading men and selling women and children to slavery. I suggest you fact check that source. How credible is the person that stated that? How do they know that, did they know Muhammad personally?
yes, there are a lot of Muslims who worship muhammad and believe him to be perfect. I am not one of those people. and again, i think a lot of leaders have helped to send this false image of a perfect muhammad around.
I grew up in today's world, I believe that a man having sex with a teenager is wrong. but this is because i live in 2009. I cannot say for sure that i would believe that act is wrong if i lived in a different time era. Can you honestly say, you would have the same moral principles if you lived in the 1900's, 1500's, 100's, and etc? Chances are, you would have conformed to the morals and principles of that time.
08/19/09
08/20/09
-Muhammad was "an unquestioned, charismatic leader." He was no better than any other absolute monarch, but definitely more dangerous because people believed that God spoke to him directly.
-Yes, all religions have been spread by the sword, but we're talking about Islam.
-I'm a lot more threatened by a people who want to emulate Muhammad than Jesus, Abraham, Noah, or Moses.
-Old Testament heroes did lead armies and take slave. But I'm not concerned that thirteen million Jews are going to rise up, raise an army, and make me a slave.
08/20/09
-Saying "widespread historical phenomenon" doesn't make it right in the past or now. Stop rationalizing.
-Refusing to be critical of Muhammad proves my point about putting loyalty to the person above loyalty to the principle.
-We're not talking about Christianity. Everyone already knows about how bad it is. See: The Crusades.
-The "originary figure" will always matter.
-We already know that God-fearing Christians have behaved badly. See: The Ku Klux Klan.
08/20/09
-Of course I'm retrospectively judging. I do the same thing to the Aztecs and the Celts; both groups practiced human sacrifice. Maybe I should be more understanding of their cultures and more forgiving of murder?
-If right about the wrongness of human sacrifice, maybe I'm right about everything?
08/19/09
Second. A dowry is paid to the Husband for the marriage. A Brideprice, which is what she is getting at here, is paid to the family of the bride for the wife. A dower, just to be compete, is money the husband sets on the wife.
Third, under Jewish law, brides can not get Gittim. He has to present her with the Get. This is actually a concern in Judaism, and women can now sue for a get. Christians only very recently truly started allowing women to divorce their husbands. This sort of thing is not new. I'm not even going to get into Islam, but my point stands.
I dunno enough about Islam, but frankly, I'd be not surprised if she didn't know anything there either.
08/19/09
Also, FYI lady, the ACLU would defend your right to email The Crazy well before they'd suppress it. See also, white supremacists and neo-Nazis who have been represented by the ACLU. Try replacing "ACLU" with "people possessed of all their mental faculties and capable of critical thinking."
08/19/09
08/19/09
My mother is going through her e-mail nearby right now. I'll wait and see.
08/20/09
08/19/09
"Most predominately Muslim countries have family codes that dictate that a woman must be a certain age before she can be married, too. It's true that sometimes these aren't followed, but the majority of Muslims wouldn't marry off an eight-year-old girl. "
The real question is, what happens to those that aren't the majority? If a minority of people ARE marrying off 8 year olds, what happens to them? Are they jailed? Is the girl protected? What? I felt like this was avoiding the issue here.
08/19/09
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08/19/09
And I'm not sure whats wrong with there being more Muslim people? it it just "OMG There not white Christians?"
08/19/09
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08/19/09
Honestly Sharia sounds almost exactly like Halakah.
08/19/09
08/19/09
08/19/09
Henry VIII promised Mary to the son of the King of France when she was only two years old.
08/19/09
08/19/09
2. Comic sans. Ugh.
3. Comic sans ITALIC. Head asplode.
08/19/09
Now, Comic Sans in italics, that's sheer psychological terrorism.
04/28/09
Some good reading
[www.farzanahassan.com]
04/28/09
04/28/09
04/28/09
And they have.